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BRIO Construction by the numbers

Old 02-06-2006, 09:27 PM
  #51  
omsflyer
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

What spinner will you be running jlachow?
Can not imagine how you would mark landing gear correctly for drilling out in that tiny space that is provided in the fuselage strange setup..
Seemed only logical to drill through the fuse, but you would think designing ideas would have solved that issue BEFORE the completion of the plane's final design...
Like the locking nuts idea, did you also strengthen the landing gear area as well???
I like the deluxe version seems solid for such little internal structure..
Don your building tips are great thanks!! Charlie
Old 02-06-2006, 10:46 PM
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J Lachowski
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

I have to confess. Dave Guerin built my plane. I ordered a 3-1/2" 3-blade from Tru-Turn and since it was so expensive anyway, I ordered it Blue Anodized<g>
Old 02-07-2006, 12:25 AM
  #53  
Jimbo952
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

Don, Ive been following this thread but I'm not sure if this is where I should post this question. I have been building a brio (fiberglass version), had it ready to paint. During transport my compressor fell on it and crushed it. (fuse only). Now it doesnt look destroyed, but I dont now how to fix fiberglass, If you could point me in the right direction that would be great.
Old 02-12-2006, 11:38 PM
  #54  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

To repair the fuselage that has been crushed by your air compressor. As far as I can tell, thin CA, the kind that does not attack foam (for the parts that have foam in the middle) would be best, and then a combination of medium and thin CA for the other fiberglass sections. The fiberglass is so thin that this would be my best recommendation to avoid weight pickup. Not familar with how bad its smooshed.

Now the wings and stab are completed. The last step, which was the easiest one, was to CA hinge the control surfaces. Basically a drop of thin CA on the top and then a couple drops on the bottom of each hinge and its done. I've done everything I could think of for the fuselage.

Time to move on to the next one. When I took it out of the box I noticed that the canopy did not fit on perfectly. It required a piece of balsa to spread the back part of the canopy, then after filing the holes some, got a very nice fit. The half circle tabs on each side will allow the front side portions to match perfectly.
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:42 PM
  #55  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

When putting the wings on I noticed that right wing was really tight. To get it re-set, the first step is to mark where the center of the TE is.
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:44 PM
  #56  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

The next step is to take out the adjuster. I took off the adjuster with a Swiss Army Knife. It really worked well. Then you widen the hole a little. Clean it up so it looks very nice and smooth. A 1/4 inch dowl with some #100 sandpaper makes an excellent tool for this activity.
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:47 PM
  #57  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

Finally, sand the mating surface, put a few drops of thick CA on the adjuster and then position the wing TE centered on the mark and glue in the adjuster. Use a hand drill and open up a couple new holes before putting the screws back in.
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Old 02-13-2006, 11:41 PM
  #58  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

Accuracy vs precision.

When practicing a maneuver, the first thing you have to do is get it accurate. Don't worry about wings level. Don't worry about perfect radius for each corner. Fly it geometrically correct and centered, with wind or without. A square loop that is off center or just not quite square will not get you a 10. It does not matter how precise you fly it, it will not receive a 10... even if the lines are perfectly straight, wings are perfectly level. Once you get the accuracy there, the precision is the easiest part. It's the icing on the cake... the last brush stroke to the painting.

Measuring the Brio for accuracy is what I did tonight. Front to back and side-to-side, some aspects were off 1/8 of an inch over the length of a meter. Some of this will be sanded out, other aspects will be left as-is. The plane is straight enough. No one measurement point is accurate, but you can spend a lot of your time taking precise measurements. Take the traditional tip-to-tip measurement with regard to the rear fuselage, as shown below. The left tip would need to be moved back some (rotate the wings counter-clockwise looking from the top).

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Old 02-13-2006, 11:53 PM
  #59  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

Now, take that same setup and instead of measuring the tip, measure the leading edge at the tip. Now suddently instead of moving back roughly 3/16 of an inch, everything measures straight, to 1/32 of an inch.

Now, measure from the leading edge root, mark two spots 20 inches out. Measure from hear and yet again something different. Now the wings have to be moved clockwise 1/8 of an inch as viewed from the top.

Check another refernce point on the fuselage. Instead of the top of the fin, use a reference point at the base of the fin. Now, understand that the seam on the fuselage is not exactly the center point, and since there are no straight lines, one cannot precisely measure the center line, at least any more accurately than an "eye ball". So the measuring continues. Basically if you take the surface area of each wing half, accurate to 1/16 times 1 meter. Now, if you could even measure the wings with that accuracy, since one would need a machine tool to carve the edges of the wing (LE, TE, tips and root).
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Old 02-14-2006, 12:02 AM
  #60  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

OK, so one wing tip is exactly 1/16 inch wider than the other tip. Both Leading edges start to taper more at about 1/8 inch (starting from about 12 inches out) and one is just sanded about 1/16 more than the other. How about the trailing edge? When you take the rulers (assuming the rulers are straight) and lay them precisely along the wing trailing edges (ailerons not on) and where they meet at the center (assuming the wing tubes are mounted perfectly straight and the carbon fiber wing tube is perfectly straight) another 1/16 of an inch difference there.
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Old 02-14-2006, 12:11 AM
  #61  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

So what's the bottom line? If you are seeing double by now, just remember this. The Brio is a well-built plane and it flies extremely well out of the box with no alignment mods.

If you do choose to put the plane under the knife for perfect alignment, be sure to measure in many different locations to get the best possible accuracy.

Until next time,

Don
Old 02-14-2006, 01:02 AM
  #62  
Troy Newman
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

ORIGINAL: Don Szczur

Accuracy vs precision.

When practicing a maneuver, the first thing you have to do is get it accurate. Don't worry about wings level. Don't worry about perfect radius for each corner. Fly it geometrically correct and centered, with wind or without. A square loop that is off center or just not quite square will not get you a 10. It does not matter how precise you fly it, it will not receive a 10... even if the lines are perfectly straight, wings are perfectly level. Once you get the accuracy there, the precision is the easiest part. It's the icing on the cake... the last brush stroke to the painting.

Measuring the Brio for accuracy is what I did tonight. Front to back and side-to-side, some aspects were off 1/8 of an inch over the length of a meter. Some of this will be sanded out, other aspects will be left as-is. The plane is straight enough. No one measurement point is accurate, but you can spend a lot of your time taking precise measurements. Take the traditional tip-to-tip measurement with regard to the rear fuselage, as shown below. The left tip would need to be moved back some (rotate the wings counter-clockwise looking from the top).

"........Front to back and side-to-side, some aspects were off 1/8 of an inch over the length of a meter. The Plane is straight enough....."

Don,

I guess you got a good deal on that model! Must have by how thrilled you are with it.

"straight enough" I guess we all have our standards. Perhaps that is what makes some enjoy the sport and others get frustrated with the quality of the models they pay high dollars.

Take your metal 1 meter ruler and check the sides along the thrust line to see if the fuse is straight mine was not. Mark the ruler so you use the same side to the ruler. Mine one side of the fuse had the tips of the ruler off the surface by about 1/8" at each end. That's Ok perhaps the fuse is curved. Nothing says it has to be straight. So on I go to the other side of the fuse and the tips of the ruler touch and middle has a gap of about 3/16". So I start looking at contours and the fuse sides are not the same left and right. one is more flat and the other curved. Not only are the sides different shapes but the banana tree it was hanging from must have been leaning to the left.

You guys are some extremely talented pilots to overcome the Brio and its quality.

Allen March
Old 02-14-2006, 07:47 AM
  #63  
J Lachowski
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

Hmmm, as one buddy of mine calls it, the law of compensating factors (one cancels the other out). <g> You also got to take into account how true and accurate your measuring device is. If its off the shelf from your local hardware store, the odds are it isn't. Then there is the effects of temperature on the material, the change in materials as the layed up material cures, etc., etc, etc, etc. If your within a 1/16th of an inch, the odds are it won't make that significant of a difference in how the plane flys. Heck, the fuselage and wings etc probably all flex that much or more in flight. Bottom line, there ain't a composite kit out there that is going to be perfect.
Old 02-14-2006, 08:39 AM
  #64  
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

At the risk of touching a nerve, there is a degree of acceptability in the world of pattern.

I don't buy this "The Brio is a well-built plane and it flies extremely well out of the box with no alignment mods."

I thought that the whole point of paying approx $1300 for this ARF was to have the hard work already done for you. The hard work in building any plane, and especially a pattern plane, is the alignment. I know pattern guys who take days just measuring and aligning before they will glue a tube. This is because the alignment is very important.

When you use a professional builder, or you possess the skills, the kit-imperfections will be corrected. I know that a Brio built by Dave Guerin will be straight, but what about us normal building mortals. My Brio had wing-tube and stab-tube alignment issues in the wing and stab that I did not and could not fix.

I would not assume that it would fly straight if built the way it came out of the box. Please forgive my skepticism but I seriously doubt if the Brio's that you flew Don, came "straight out of the box".

Regards,

Eric.


ORIGINAL: Don Szczur

So what's the bottom line? If you are seeing double by now, just remember this. The Brio is a well-built plane and it flies extremely well out of the box with no alignment mods.

If you do choose to put the plane under the knife for perfect alignment, be sure to measure in many different locations to get the best possible accuracy.

Until next time,

Don
Old 02-14-2006, 05:22 PM
  #65  
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

I agree with Eric in that if we pay good money for an ARC or an ARF , the alignment and measures should be on or very close to it . I think Don has discovered exactly the reason for measurement discrepancies... the left /right components ( stab ,elevators, and wings are not exactly the same size. I get a chuckle every time I play my Sam Turner produced tapes on building a pattern wing because he coined a the phrase "Identicalize everything ". It ain't possible with an ARC or ARF because one has to start the process of identicalizing right from the foam cores. The fuse requires it's alignment (wing tube, sleeve , vertical fin , thrust lines, etc. )on a dead flat table or piece of slate. A video by Bob Noll " Perfect Airframe Alignment " is familiar to many of us and expounds alignment techniques that start at the very beginning.I 'm finishing up a Focus 2 ARC which was built quite well by the Piedmont sub-contractor in China but I couldn't figure why I had trouble aligning until I discovered different sized wings - the fault of too wide a tip on one side . Fortunately for me , I little sandpaper did the trick - I later discovered the wings at the roots where off by an 1/8". Frankly , my caliber of flying won't benefit as much as it would for you guys, but I think at $1400 for an ARC and $1795 for an ARF, there should be relative precision .Can't wait to see an Oxyi Model in person and would love to take some measures in the shop to see what $3 grand buys - in photos they look as though American Honda built them - STUNNING !
Old 02-14-2006, 07:34 PM
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

Frank,
I did not want to go "religious" on this and I do not want to undermine what Don is doing. Sharing like he is doing is a great service to us all.

On a bunch of IMPACT's and on pro-built BRIOs I know that the rudder is being discarded from the get-go. The reason being that they are too heavy by several ounces. I didn't like that either, but maybe I could live with it if the planes were being built for me. With the IMPACT it was an easy choice, With the BRIO you have to cut off the rudder that is already pre-hinged, open up the tailpost and fit a new one. Not what I would expect forthat money.

I am not sponsored by anyone so when I write about stuff I am free to say what I like and don't like without getting into "support" issues with the sponsors. I may take som eheat but it doesn't affect my support, unless they are in the judges chair behind me. When I like something I tell everyone and when I find a problem I tell the supplier to give them a chance to fix it. If I need to warn people about something I can do so freely. A case in point, when I told everyone to add a 4" FG bandage on the center of the ICEPOINT wings.

In this thread I was responding to, (barfing at) the suggestion/statement that all would be well if none of the alignment/measurment issues were taken care of/fixed.

The PINNACLE accuracy claims are very solid. I found all of the wings and stabs to be interchangeable, Two fuselages and three sets of wings could make any plane combo that you wanted. Of course you paid for that, but you actaully got what you expected.

the other side of the coin is that when you have a plane built, you may never know how straight it is. If it flies well then who cares? But check out the radio mixes that some folks are using to get them to go well. And then ask me to show you code 64 on my 10X for the Pinnacles. Ask Troy as well.

Eric.
Old 02-14-2006, 10:43 PM
  #67  
Gregg G
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

Hey Eric,
For us lowly Futaba drivers, what's a code 64?

Thanks Don for all the input and I for one appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Bottom line is burning alot of fuel can sure compensate for an airplane being off by an 1/8th.
Greg
Old 02-14-2006, 11:04 PM
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

The 10SXII and 10X have a decicated set of mixes in code 64 for std mode and flight modes (Conditions). The rudder to elevator and the rudder to aileron mixes can be set there without using any other mix options.

Regards,

Eric.

ORIGINAL: Gregg G

Hey Eric,
For us lowly Futaba drivers, what's a code 64?

Thanks Don for all the input and I for one appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Bottom line is burning alot of fuel can sure compensate for an airplane being off by an 1/8th.
Greg
Old 02-18-2006, 09:21 PM
  #69  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

Inconsistencies will for the most part be within the tolerance level of final sanding, 220 grit followed by 400 grit. Note that two or three passes on a leading or trailing edge with 220 grit sanding block will be 1/16 inch.

While building the second BRIO, things take much less time than the first. Moving the landing gear plate, acutally measuring up 5/16 of an inch works much better. This allow the slot, once striaghtened with the tool (1/16 ply with some sandpaper on one side). So step 1 is drawing the lines, step 2 is cutting inside each line with the dremel disk, and step 3 is final sanding with the special tool.
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Old 02-18-2006, 09:29 PM
  #70  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

Note that the inside screw is taken off of the top landing gear plate. Between these and the respective screws its about 2/3 of an ounce weight savings. This is a relatively easy task using a large file, putting a diagonal groove along the line until its about half way through and then using some pliers to breat off the piece. Its really easy installing the landing gear from this point. Step 1 push the landing gear in. Step 2 install the screws easily, Setp 3 work the landing gear back and the screws fall right into the holes.
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Old 02-18-2006, 09:39 PM
  #71  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

And I must stress safety in the shop starts at a young age. Iron is set on a solid wood surface and not left on (i.e., unplugged before leaving the shop). Its important to start ironing from the inside out, after tacking the edges. Always start with a low heat setting and then build up to stick/shrink the covering. To make the job easier the sock was removed. Finish was not as well, with some scratching of the covered surface, but it made the teaching principle much easier. This is for the elevator on a block aircraft he is building.
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:35 AM
  #72  
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

Don,
I must be missing something...My landing gear has NO mounting holes on it, the ONLY landing gear mounting holes I can locate are buried in the fuselage itself, in what appears to be the bottom mounting plate area....How did you make these holes IF yours is like mine came with no holes to be found...
Thanks for any info....Charlie
Old 02-19-2006, 07:45 PM
  #73  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

Attached is a scanned picture of the actual gear plate. You will see the three holes clearly.

Now, how to measure them? just put a small nail down through the holes and then mark the location of the screws. The holes are big enough where if you are off just a bit there will be enough room to position the gear.

To make your job easier, I'll scan a template that you can use to get it right the first time.

Don
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:14 PM
  #74  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

The space between the front two holes is exactly 4 cm, or 40mm. The distance between the front two holes and the back hole is exactly 22.5mm. Attached is a drawing if you can make a template, or just measure the holes from these dimensions.
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:39 PM
  #75  
Don Szczur
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Default RE: BRIO Construction by the numbers

Now, the gear plate tabs. Cut through the bottom deck for access to the gear plate. Use a piece of paper to make the reinforcing tab template, then cut a 3/4 strip of light 1/8 inch ply and make the 4 tabs. Next glue them in with some thick CA.
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