David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
05-22-2007 | 09:56 AM
#176
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
During the demo his Ultra had a flameout on what was supposed to be a high-speed pass. David put it down on its belly to slide it to a stop and did, only he was still holding up in it and off the end of the runway is a little valley. Once his Ultra passed over it, it became flying again, but now he realized it was much slower and PUT the gear down and landed it "as if he meant it" according to people standing down at the left end of the field. Many people, including Bob and my brother, went over his Ultra and found nothing wrong with it after that "landing". Horns, linkages, servos, gears, pins.....etc were normal.
Those frame by frame shots look so cool.
Those frame by frame shots look so cool.
05-22-2007 | 10:01 AM
#177
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From: Roanoke, VA
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
The video is 30fps. The pitchover actually starts in frame 6. 8 frames later is impact. That translates to .27 seconds.
Nice avatar JAS.
Nice avatar JAS.
05-22-2007 | 10:48 AM
#179
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From: Roanoke, VA
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
ORIGINAL: Error401
The video is 30fps. The pitchover actually starts in frame 6. 8 frames later is impact. That translates to .27 seconds.
Nice avatar JAS.
The video is 30fps. The pitchover actually starts in frame 6. 8 frames later is impact. That translates to .27 seconds.
Nice avatar JAS.
http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/...time/stats.php
also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time
05-22-2007 | 12:27 PM
#182
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From: Heathrow, FL
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
Guy's,
We've figured out what happened - someone turned on (accidentally I hope).
We duplicated the exact scenario.
When you have a radio (JR10X) on and working, and add another radio on the same channel, at a reasonable distance away (to where it won't immediately swamp the original) and slowly bring the 2nd radio closer, once within range, the 1st radio goes into about 1/2 stick of down elevator before going into hold/failsafe. It's probably less than a second of input in the down elevator before holding.
If you do this and the 2nd radio is close by and swamps the signal, it goes into hold/failsafe immediately (without the down elevator).
What I'm imagining is that I flew into the 2nd radio signal somehow, and being so low, coupled with the speed, there was no room to fly out of it, even with the strong signal strength of the JR.
As far as the ebay deal, c'mon, you guys have waaaay too much time to analyze all of this.
So what did I learn out of this? Hmmmm, fly inverted low passes from now on and fly on 2.4!
We've figured out what happened - someone turned on (accidentally I hope).
We duplicated the exact scenario.
When you have a radio (JR10X) on and working, and add another radio on the same channel, at a reasonable distance away (to where it won't immediately swamp the original) and slowly bring the 2nd radio closer, once within range, the 1st radio goes into about 1/2 stick of down elevator before going into hold/failsafe. It's probably less than a second of input in the down elevator before holding.
If you do this and the 2nd radio is close by and swamps the signal, it goes into hold/failsafe immediately (without the down elevator).
What I'm imagining is that I flew into the 2nd radio signal somehow, and being so low, coupled with the speed, there was no room to fly out of it, even with the strong signal strength of the JR.
As far as the ebay deal, c'mon, you guys have waaaay too much time to analyze all of this.
So what did I learn out of this? Hmmmm, fly inverted low passes from now on and fly on 2.4!
05-22-2007 | 12:31 PM
#183
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RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
Sucks to be you Dave, you are the topic of the week......that really stinks, but pretty much confirms what some of us already thought. Too bad about the plane, just glad it was not the F-86. See you soon bud. Take care.
Tommy
...that really stinks, but pretty much confirms what some of us already thought. Too bad about the plane, just glad it was not the F-86. See you soon bud. Take care.Tommy
05-22-2007 | 12:37 PM
#185
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
What bothers me is that the cardinal rule of never turning your radio on without the frequency tag is still an issue. Hindsight and all, now I can see a great reason for radio impounds. Should this/is this required at sanctioned events?
Dave, thanks for clearing the air regarding this. Will you be contacting JR regarding the odd interference issue?
Dave, thanks for clearing the air regarding this. Will you be contacting JR regarding the odd interference issue?
05-22-2007 | 12:37 PM
#186
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RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
From the looks of that crash, its gonna take more than a little paint to fix it. If you can put that thing back together not only are you my hero, I'm gonna wear a T-shirt with your picture on it..haha.
At least you still got your sense of humor, huh? BTW did you and Dustin get my emails? Check them when you get time, I need some info.
Tommy
At least you still got your sense of humor, huh? BTW did you and Dustin get my emails? Check them when you get time, I need some info.
Tommy
05-22-2007 | 12:39 PM
#187
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From: Roanoke, VA
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
Dave,
Thanks for the R&D on the radios. I fly a 10X and do appreciate the info very much. Condolences on the airframe, and I hope to see you at Nall 08.
Thanks for the R&D on the radios. I fly a 10X and do appreciate the info very much. Condolences on the airframe, and I hope to see you at Nall 08.
05-22-2007 | 12:51 PM
#189
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RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
ORIGINAL: DaveShulman
Guy's,
We've figured out what happened - someone turned on (accidentally I hope).
We duplicated the exact scenario.
When you have a radio (JR10X) on and working, and add another radio on the same channel, at a reasonable distance away (to where it won't immediately swamp the original) and slowly bring the 2nd radio closer, once within range, the 1st radio goes into about 1/2 stick of down elevator before going into hold/failsafe. It's probably less than a second of input in the down elevator before holding.
If you do this and the 2nd radio is close by and swamps the signal, it goes into hold/failsafe immediately (without the down elevator).
[snip]
Guy's,
We've figured out what happened - someone turned on (accidentally I hope).
We duplicated the exact scenario.
When you have a radio (JR10X) on and working, and add another radio on the same channel, at a reasonable distance away (to where it won't immediately swamp the original) and slowly bring the 2nd radio closer, once within range, the 1st radio goes into about 1/2 stick of down elevator before going into hold/failsafe. It's probably less than a second of input in the down elevator before holding.
If you do this and the 2nd radio is close by and swamps the signal, it goes into hold/failsafe immediately (without the down elevator).
[snip]
That's really interesting. I'm assuming that the second radio must be a JR10X as well? I've done some limited experimenting with the Langley guy's 10X's and my own Futaba 9C's and I've generally found that those two types can actually work simultaneously on the same channel - although I'm sure that the effective range goes down.
There must be some scenario where the primary signal gets corrupted just enough to cause an erroneous packet to be received but decoded as OK by the RX. Or perhaps its a software (firmware) bug in the JR RX where rapid reception of alternating good and bad frames causes the processor to go into some "unknown state" where bad pulses are sent to the servos... I'd guess the latter case...
It would be nice if the JR folks could add some info. to this discussion...
Bob
Bob
05-22-2007 | 01:13 PM
#191
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
Dave, are you saying that a person was fiddling with a transmitter in the pits? What about the frequency check right after the crash? the person "if that's the case" must have known what they did because if the channel was hot when you crashed it didn't show up on the scanner right after you went in. and lastly can you please explain the the 2.4 gig die hards that the spectum setup is not 100% crash proof? BTW thanks for the sunburn from the fire lol . i was right next the the crash site
ORIGINAL: DaveShulman
Guy's,
We've figured out what happened - someone turned on (accidentally I hope).
We duplicated the exact scenario.
When you have a radio (JR10X) on and working, and add another radio on the same channel, at a reasonable distance away (to where it won't immediately swamp the original) and slowly bring the 2nd radio closer, once within range, the 1st radio goes into about 1/2 stick of down elevator before going into hold/failsafe. It's probably less than a second of input in the down elevator before holding.
If you do this and the 2nd radio is close by and swamps the signal, it goes into hold/failsafe immediately (without the down elevator).
What I'm imagining is that I flew into the 2nd radio signal somehow, and being so low, coupled with the speed, there was no room to fly out of it, even with the strong signal strength of the JR.
As far as the ebay deal, c'mon, you guys have waaaay too much time to analyze all of this.
So what did I learn out of this? Hmmmm, fly inverted low passes from now on and fly on 2.4!
Guy's,
We've figured out what happened - someone turned on (accidentally I hope).
We duplicated the exact scenario.
When you have a radio (JR10X) on and working, and add another radio on the same channel, at a reasonable distance away (to where it won't immediately swamp the original) and slowly bring the 2nd radio closer, once within range, the 1st radio goes into about 1/2 stick of down elevator before going into hold/failsafe. It's probably less than a second of input in the down elevator before holding.
If you do this and the 2nd radio is close by and swamps the signal, it goes into hold/failsafe immediately (without the down elevator).
What I'm imagining is that I flew into the 2nd radio signal somehow, and being so low, coupled with the speed, there was no room to fly out of it, even with the strong signal strength of the JR.
As far as the ebay deal, c'mon, you guys have waaaay too much time to analyze all of this.
So what did I learn out of this? Hmmmm, fly inverted low passes from now on and fly on 2.4!
05-22-2007 | 01:14 PM
#192
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RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
I've stayed out of this till something more definitive was stated, thanks for the heads up David, I was suspecting interference.
I have been flight testing 2.4 as you have and it is the wave of the future IMO. If you had a smart-fly and 2.4 would have been no issue.
Even with Weatronics, it is very unlikely you would have ever known someone was on your channel.
I hate to see anyone's airplanes go in, it really sucks, especially when it is 100% preventable with the newer technologies. Some are following instruction manuals to the T and are getting bit. I've been suggesting for a while in my circle that all airplanes be updated to the newer technologies to prevent this, problem is, it's coming from me! As BOB'o said this weekend about my comment that half of RCU thinks I'm a moron, Bob'o said "and the other half KNOWS!"
Oh well, spectacular crash indeed, I enjoyed it immensely! And hated it at the same time.
I know you'll be in another soon, can't wait to see it at a rally later this year.
All the best,
Sean
I have been flight testing 2.4 as you have and it is the wave of the future IMO. If you had a smart-fly and 2.4 would have been no issue.
Even with Weatronics, it is very unlikely you would have ever known someone was on your channel.
I hate to see anyone's airplanes go in, it really sucks, especially when it is 100% preventable with the newer technologies. Some are following instruction manuals to the T and are getting bit. I've been suggesting for a while in my circle that all airplanes be updated to the newer technologies to prevent this, problem is, it's coming from me! As BOB'o said this weekend about my comment that half of RCU thinks I'm a moron, Bob'o said "and the other half KNOWS!"
Oh well, spectacular crash indeed, I enjoyed it immensely! And hated it at the same time.
I know you'll be in another soon, can't wait to see it at a rally later this year.
All the best,
Sean
05-22-2007 | 02:19 PM
#194
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From: Sailing in the Eastern Caribbean
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
Perhaps the cause was someone who forgot to turn it off after flying.
Easily done especially after a stressful flight followed by distractions after landing.
Thats why TX control is a good idea and should be mandatory at any event with the public present.
Easily done especially after a stressful flight followed by distractions after landing.
Thats why TX control is a good idea and should be mandatory at any event with the public present.
05-22-2007 | 02:29 PM
#195
Senior Member
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
ORIGINAL: geh3
scary to think some $#%&$#*%(^(^ would turn on a transmitter without a pin!!!
scary to think some $#%&$#*%(^(^ would turn on a transmitter without a pin!!!
The pin will become a relic, as I'm sure you're aware.
05-22-2007 | 02:45 PM
#196
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From: wilmington, DE
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
Yes I have a DX7 and have ordered the requisite stuff to equip my Futaba 9C BUT.. lots of us will still be doing the pin thing for a while!!!!
05-22-2007 | 02:49 PM
#197
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From: Memphis,
TN
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
Being the safety officer at our club ( and I have been shot down a few time myself, but I always use that little Hobbico scanner before I switch on my radio regardless of whether I have the pin )
we are still using 2.4 pins just to keep people in the habit of getting a pin as most guys will now fly on both frequencies and we dont want people just "Forgetting"
we are still using 2.4 pins just to keep people in the habit of getting a pin as most guys will now fly on both frequencies and we dont want people just "Forgetting"
05-22-2007 | 03:02 PM
#198
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From: SANTA ANA, CA
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
An elevator gyro, which pops loose from its mount would cause the exact scenario seen in the video. The gyro coming loose and tilting back would cause down elevator input to compensate, immediately followed by Dave's input of up which flattened the AOA just before impact. Of course if Dave's not using a gyro on the elevator, that would exclude the possibility.
David S
David S
05-22-2007 | 04:23 PM
#199
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
Can i just get this clear.
Are you telling me that you do NOT impound TX's at shows?
IF true..it is insane
At any event in England all TX's are impounded.
They are signed in and checked that they are on the frequency you say they are.
You would be amazed how many times they are not
]
The Peg board (pins) are in the TX control and you need the frequency pin to get the TX.
It is signed out to you and you go fly. The TX is checked to be off before the pin is returned to the board and the TX re-impounded.
I would personally not fly at such an event without this imposed.
People (I hope) do not deliberately shoot someone down.
What this does is prevent the absent minded moment we are all capable off.
Paul
Are you telling me that you do NOT impound TX's at shows?
IF true..it is insane
At any event in England all TX's are impounded.
They are signed in and checked that they are on the frequency you say they are.
You would be amazed how many times they are not![
]The Peg board (pins) are in the TX control and you need the frequency pin to get the TX.
It is signed out to you and you go fly. The TX is checked to be off before the pin is returned to the board and the TX re-impounded.
I would personally not fly at such an event without this imposed.
People (I hope) do not deliberately shoot someone down.
What this does is prevent the absent minded moment we are all capable off.
Paul
05-22-2007 | 04:25 PM
#200
RE: David Shulman crash at Joe Nall?
Dave, sorry for your crash and thanks for coming here to tell us what happened in first hand.
About your new avatar, guess that is the best ever seen! [sm=thumbup.gif]
Enrique
About your new avatar, guess that is the best ever seen! [sm=thumbup.gif]
Enrique
