Another point on the Mustang is that most the panel lines and flush rivets on the wing were filled and the wing was painted silver. As a result, most the rivets on the wing were not visible at all. The fuse is a different story. It was natural finish aluminum and all the panel lines and rivets were visible.

Scott

Amen! this forum should be informative not mis informative [8D]

Stang151 the Corsair for the most part was spot welded ,thats interesting.

Is this fact or fiction:the P-51 with its laminar flow airfoil wing had all the flush rivets 'filled' AND then the wing painted Silver if natural aluminum late production

if the rivets on the wing were filled and painted. what did that do for (at field repairs) during the war?. I could have swarn ive seen color film documentrys and the whole plane is raw with markings. I donno.

Due to the need for the laminar flow wing to have an extremely smooth surface it is my understanding that ALL Mustangs came from the factory with wings that were filled and sanded with a bondo type substance prior to painting. Even the early Mustangs were built this way. The only areas not filled were the flaps and ailerons as well as the gun access doors. That's not to say that the filler was never stripped off in the field, it may have been, but they were not factory built that way.

There was a post,somewhere, on RCU that I saw someone had posted the T.O. for the filling and painting of the wings on the P-51s. Some search might dig it up. They were filled and painted out of the factory. What happened in the field is another question.

Hi there heres a few pic's of my ziroli stagg she's nearly ready for her maiden i applied the riverts with a bit off3mm brass tube attatched to a gass solidering iron i recon i took me 2 nights to complet the fiz an wings all my detail was copied frpm an airfix kit and scale drawings hope you like

here's a few more

As far as the history on painted P-51 wings all said is true that the wings were filled and painted but when they got to the field they found that the finish was "unstable" and started peeling. In other words the product sucked so alot of P-51's were stripped in the field and just left natural or repainted OD. This is just from my memory but I do remember reading this not that long a go. If I can find the exact quote I will post it. Either way is correct but they all had pronounced rivots on the fuse.

A little off topic, but I'm just finishing my GS TF P-51 and I've been thinking about the rivets. Lots of people show all the rivets on every panel line, but if you scaled down a real P-51 the bulk of the rivets would be too small to see. All you would probably see is the wing faring, tail wing mount and the Dzus fasteners on the cowl. On the back side, if you scaled up a riveted 1/5 scale P-51 the rivets would be 5cm across, not cool and hardly aerodynamic.


So my question is, at a Scale Masters level is doing all the rivets a waste of time because it's not 'true' scale?

Hi Tsquadron,
If you are going to replacate a "period" W.W.II Mustang,then do not make any panel lines or rivets on the wing.(Except for the gun bays/amo compartment).
North American Aviation, in an attempt to achieve Lamanar flow, filled all panel lines from the leading edge back to forty percent of the chord with "Dumb-Dumb" putty.(Bondo).
Then painted entire wing silver.(Except the ailerons and flaps were left bare metal)These did have lines and flush rivets...I suppose you would have to show lines,not rivets on the remaining sixty percent of surface....Won't be easy...
Also,don't forget the small wing fences out near the tips,two on each side forward of ailerons.They look like bumps or "blisters".The wing "fillet" was left bare metal as was entire
fuselage and tail surfaces.Rudder was fabric on 90% of wartime "D"s and elevators were metal on all "D"s (except the very last "B"s that were converted to"D"s).

If you are replacating a modern "warbird" then all bets are off.Most do not "fill" the wing before paint....

The wing "fillet" is held in place with Philips head screws as is the "fillet" around the Vertical fin and stab.These are flat head screws flush not raised.
All cowling panels held on by "dzus" fasteners.....It can be challenging but well worth it if you want to impress the "judges"....What ever you decide, make all surface details subtle.

Anyway, I get carried away talking "Mustang" but I hope this helps you,.....

Best of luck!
Ken.

p.s. remember after about two months in combat,the finish,ie,paint and markings begin to fade and chip off and the bare metal oxydizes.If you "weather" the finish,keep it subtle!....
As far as ScaleMasters,thats a touph one.Example;the invasion stripes were outlined first in chalk then painted with a "BRUSH" not "AIRBRUSHED" with perfect striat lines.NO masking involved.However,most judges do not know this and would probably mark down your score if your lines were a little wavey as they should be.
Also,the crew chiefs used avgas to degrease the plane and to remove the invasion stripes from the upper surface after a set time period.Some just painted over them with O.D.
Speaking of olive drab paint,remember the anti-glare panel was O.D...NOT flat black.That was a U.S.A.A.F. standard.
One last thing,the factory stopped painting the wings at the close of hostilaties.It was aurgued that no Mustang except the prototype had ever achieved "True Lamanar Flow".
Some would even say that only the wind tunnel model could achieve it.We'll never know.

Rcphotog: Good infomation, I'm building a P-51H and I guess this doesn't pertatain to me but good information.
rcflyer35

I thought I was the only one up at o3oo...correct, the "H" was all bare metal even the rudder.
Not to mention it was an entirely diffirent air-frame.

Ken.

I know, it had less Armor Plate but was faster than the D but D Pilots said they didn't like the feel of it during flite.
rcflyer35
P.S. yes I'm usually up around 3:00AM every morning,I'm retired and this is the time I work on my Air Planes or am on this stupid machine.

Using a 1/32" brass tube to make rivets on a 1/5 scale model would be the equivalent to 5/32" rivet head (under 4mm). That's actually too small to be scale. A 3/32" or 2mm brass tube would be closer to scale, giving a representation of a 3/8" rivet head. I don't know how you came up with a figure of 50mm.

Scott

Hi Scott, 5cm was just being creative in expression. Being an aeronautical engineer, I do understand mathematics... This question has been going through my head for months now, so over the weekend I did a little experiment . I took a drum-scan of a photo of a wing. I then printed this image out a 1/5 scale. The rivets could not be seen; manily because the gap/line between the rivet and the sheeting was too small to be seen by the human eye. Infact the panel was very fine too, at lot finer than what most modellers do.

Food for thought!

The problem becomes.. what does one "expect" to see vs what can one "actually" see on a great model vs the full scale. Since I live close to the Air and Space museum I get to see these planes as often as I want. One impression that I'm always left with is how imperfect these planes look regarding their surfaces. If you can convey that, how ever you do it, I think your on target.

As an example of this: I once met a gent who flew Stangs during WWII and now restores them (at least 3 so far). He commented to me that "no rib section on the production built plane was the same height"! This gives the wing surface a very un-smooth appearance. When restoring the plane he would shim each rib section to be uniform and give the wing a much smoother surface.

More food for thought!

I agree that panel lines come out over scale. I use 1/64" chart tape for making panel lines. That translates to a bit over 1/16" at full size. Unfortunately, it's not possible to do everything to true scale. But after sanding and painting, I think that the results add more to the realism than distract. These issues are even more pronounced in other hobbies such as static plastic models or model railroading. Some possible improvements might be to cover a plane in a product like Flite Metal and creating true butt joints with the product. That would be a good choice on a natural finished plane, but adds to weight and a lot of work. One area that I wish I had the skill to reproduce is the small distortions in the aluminum skin as a result of it's application to the frame and distortions from stress. The perfectly smooth surfaces of RC models just doesn't look right. When it comes down to it, you always have to make compromises.


Scott

Look kool, but you applied them wrong,

the panel line should be between the row of staggerd rivets , not a double row of rivets on each side of panel line.


not trying to be ugly , just trying to help. 51-D GUY.

so how long before we see those rivets? encouraging minds wanna know

Oh that was just a test panel at the time.. to see how they looked on the plane.

Well I have found myself to be exaggerating the texture on my p-40 like the overlapping pannel lines and now with raised rivets. I know its not exactly scale but its a look that you can feel and see nicely especisally when the sunlight picks up the shadows of the pannels. And looking at other top gun quality builds in person, i always seem to see that it holds true. painting a 3-D look is cool but people seem to really like something they can see and feel.

Hi Scott,

Can I ask, do you lay down the chart tape then paint over it and leave it, leaving a rise, OR do you lay down the chart tape, paint then peal off, leaving a groove.

My plan was to primer it, mark the panel lines with a pencil, then using a flexi ruler and a hobby knife cut down the pencil line leaving a groove. I have tried this and it looks perfect when I was using Alclad II which is a real thin airbrushed paint. Now I've changed my paint scheme and I'm going for a camo design, but the grooves are that thin they can fill with paint. Therefore I need a plan B.

Cheers,

James

I lay out the chart tape, prime, then remove the tape. Then I sand lightly with 320-400 grit to knock off the high points and rough edges.

Here's some photos. This is on a 1/7 scale Top Flite Spitfire.

Scott

sweet!!!!

nice work

I found some flexible plastic rulers from C-thru that were great for laying out lines. They have a flexible ell square that was particularly useful when laying out panel lines and rivets. One of the toughest jobs was laying out lines around the fuselage. With the taper of the fuse, you can't simply flex the ruler flat aound the fuse and get a proper line. To get a proper line, only one edge of the ruler can lay on the fuse. 1/8" tape worked ok for laying out the lines too. I plan on trying a laser line on my next project. Another method is to stand the fuse on it's nose, then use a stand with a pencil and a flat base, and trace around the fuse at the right height. As they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Thanks Scott. Looks great.