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F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Old 09-19-2003, 12:44 PM
  #1  
Mike Bogh
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Default F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Hey all,
I was just looking at one of these at my LHS...http://horizon.hobbyshopnow.com/prod...p?prod=GWS1095
Is anyone flying one?
Your thoughts, please.
Thanks in advance,
Eldon
Old 09-21-2003, 09:04 PM
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mxwrench
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Eldon, I just picked one up last week. Finished building it Tuesday. Real easy build. Nice plane! I haven't had a chance to fly it yet due to a 5 day business trip to the east coast. I will be home Monday and hope to take it out for its first flight on Tuesday. I will post the results when I'm finished playing with it. Just FYI, I replaced the motor with a hotter wind unit (not sure the name, I don't have it in front of me), HS-55 servos, Castle Creations Pixie 20A Speed control, Kokam 1100mah 3s1p batteries and GWS mechanical retracts using HS-55 servo. I'm not sure of the all up weight yet but I know it's under 16 oz. The model is meant to be 12-14 oz. out of the box in std. configuration so it will be interesting to see what it really is. I'll keep you posted.

Brian
Old 09-22-2003, 08:34 AM
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Thank you Brian, I appreciate your input and look forward to the flight report.
Old 09-22-2003, 07:56 PM
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flyjohn
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

I flew my Formosa last Saturday, pretty much stock layout, with 7cell 800mah nimh flight pack it weighed 15.75 oz, not spectacular but it flew around. no trims needed, not f3a capable, definitely needs more ummph. Will be interested in hearing about your perfomance with your setup and which motors are more powerful replacements for stock motor.
Old 09-27-2003, 11:09 PM
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mxwrench
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Flight report,
After some bench testing I found the hs-55 servo gears to be to weak for the retract duties (after some teeth broke off) so I changed to a hs-81 mg servo. Also after bench running the motor for about 5 min. with some full throttle blasts, I could smell burnt armature. I think the 3s li-po just had to much voltage for the simprop speed power 280 motor. So off to the hobby shop I went. $180.00 later I was the proud owner of a shiny new ModelMotors MiniAC 12/15 /12 motor and a Castle Creations Phoenix 35 Control. This setup was a nice install, required very little modification and slid right into the std 5.33 GWS gearbox. I am running it with a apc 9x6 eprop.

Same li-po's huge increase in power.

On with the flight report,

First flight was touchy. I needed to feed in a ton of up elevator to maintain level flight. After some cg adjustments (about 100mm from leading edge) she was getting more comfortable in the air. This plane really goes where you point it!
I was able to hover with about half throttle, climb vertical from a hover till it was a spec in the sky, and best of all I achieved a killer inverted flat spin! All my previous models wouldn't even do that! Inverted flight is very stable with little down required to maintain, and outside loops were a snap.

I'm not sure why I need so much up elevator to maintain level flight but as soon as I figure out my cg issues, this plane is going to be a winner!!

By the way, the retracts worked awesome and looked excellent in a low level fly by!

Here are a few photos of the finished model...

Brian
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Old 11-03-2003, 07:44 PM
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donwojtas
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

I have just finished my Formosa and flew it stock on 8 cell 720 nimh battery pack. I also noticed much up elevator was required for level flight. I am trying to find what the thrust line of the motor should be. There was a little bit of slop in the recess of the firewall where the motor mount is installed. Could be there is to much down thrust in the motor. I had a Simpro sukhoi that did the same thing and I mixed some elevator into the throttle on my transmitter. If anyone knows the optimum thrust line both for torque and up or down please reply. This plane will be a kick once I go brushless.
Old 11-04-2003, 02:08 PM
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chimchim
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Mxwrench,

Excellent finish, WOW!!!! Talk about eye candy..... now for the interrogation, how did you do it? What products did you use? And mostly, how much practice or experience with the airbrush?

And by the way thanks, now I just have to have a Formosa!

Thanks,
Steve
Old 11-24-2003, 01:09 PM
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Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Mxwrench,

I have a Formosa and I'm about to build it and I wanted to check with you regarding any suggestions you might have regarding the building.

I've just ordered the same motor, gear box, and propeller but with a different controller.

Did you ever find out what was causing the "up elevator"? Would you recommend a little "up" thrust in the motor mount?

What adhesive do you suggest? I heard the the GWS glue is not that good and that epoxy adds a lot of weight. I was thinking of using epoxy for the motor mount and wing hold downs, but carpenter's glue for the rest - what do you think?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller
Old 11-24-2003, 01:46 PM
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donwojtas
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

I would use 6 min epoxy sparingly or it will take a week to finish the model. The supplied glue is great for the supplied hinges. Mine came in under 13 ounces with the 720nmh battery. Re setting the CG to 95-100mm as MaxWrench suggested does help greatly. You definitely do not want up thrust from the motor. Depending on what battery packs you may want to try I would hog out the battery area before you glue the fuselage half's together. If you re-time the stock motor (move the backplate 1/4 '' clockwise) you will get better performance. If you are going to use 3li-po's cells make sure you get a controller with a programable BEC so you do not run the cells to low. In lieu of that you should use a timer. Use dual rates for the Ailerons until you get used to the Formosa. IF you fly with the recommended Ail. throws it will roll at about 720 deg./sec. You might want to start with half of that.
Old 11-24-2003, 03:22 PM
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Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Hi Donwojtas

The controller that I ordered was the JEC303 Jeti JES 30-3P with the Model Motors MiniAC 1215 /12. I found the data sheets for the controller at http://www.aircraft-world.com/prod_d...ets/ac-esc.htm

The data is a little confusing to me, since I'm new to the electrics, but I think the JEC303 Jeti JES 30-3P is not programmable. I think it just has auto cut off BEC.

I'm currently flying the GWS P51D with the aileron throws set to the instruction sheet. I do find the airlerons sensitive and have programmed my TX so the ailerons are not sensitive near center stick.

I tried to the retime the GWS 300C and 350C motors using various methods as other forums have described, that is:
1. Turning backplate 1/4 turn CW
2. Turning back plate 7mm CW
3. Hooking up meter and checking amperage while turning plate CW (voltage should go up, then return to original setting)
4. Turn out lights and turn CW for least amount of sparks from brushes
5. Turn backplate CW with prop on until max RPM

In all cases, the original setting seem to end up being the best for current draw and RPM, do you think the manufacturer is now adjusting the timing correctly? or am I doing something wrong?

The batteries I use are from the Aerobird 8.4 V 900mah (although I hear they are really rated at 1100mah), so I'm hoping the standard BEC cut off voltage will be suffient. I also use the TX stopwatch function to keep track of my flying time, so I don't come down dead stick (when I remember to look at the time ).

Thanks for all your suggestions, and taking the time to reply. I'll incorporate the suggestions when I'm building.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller
Old 11-24-2003, 05:18 PM
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donwojtas
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Hi again Wayne

Sorry to confuse you re -the BEC cut-off. I was only referring to lithium poly batteries which if discharged to deeply will kill the battery cell. If you ever decide to invest in lithium batteries read up on them before deciding how many cells to purchase. Plenty of info in this forum or on Goggle.

RE the motor- I had one C cell ( wires soldered to the C cell with alligator clips--also used to break in motor) hooked to the motor as I rotated the backplate clockwise and definitely heard an increase in RPM. The RPM would continue to increase by going past 1/4 inch-7mm but his would be bad for the motor. Some people just take the red dot on the backplate to the clockwise side of the crimp it is closest too. If you had your battery pack hooked to the motor it might have been more difficult to detect the change in RPM verses using one cell. NOTE: make sure you are running the motor bacwards when re-timing.

The reason we re-time the 300 or 350 motor is it is running backwards due to the type of gearbox GWS is using. To get proper direction of the prop the motor is wired backwards. ( IF you look at the back-plate you will see the black lead is going to the positive terminal on the motor. ) For whatever reason (probably economics) the motors GWS buys from Mabuchie do not have the timing optimized to run backwards. If you used a planetary gearbox the motor would run in the same direction as the motor and this would not be an issue.

I did notice some improvement in my Formosa with the re-timed motor but a brush-less ( I have an 020 in my ZAGI) will be like an after-burner. Follow the instructions on your brush-less motor/controller to make you motor run backwards.

The Formosa like a little power when landing especially in grass.

Good Luck
Don
Old 11-24-2003, 05:49 PM
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Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Hi Don,

Thanks for all your help.

Just to let you know, I've been out of the hobby for about 30 years and just getting back into it and thought I should try the electrics. I'm finding that I'm having a hard time understanding the motors, gearbox and prop selection.

I still have the glow engines, but I really like the convenience of electrics, small flying area, easy to transport, "re-fuel" and clean after flying.

I forgot about the friendliness of modlers and how willing they are to help others, I really appreciate it, thanks again for your help.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller
Old 11-26-2003, 01:20 PM
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donwojtas
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Hi Wayne

We are all glad to help and thanks for the thanks> Please let us know the end result and any hints and kinks you may have run across. Do you guys fly in the snow up there??

Don
Old 12-11-2003, 02:25 PM
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Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Hi,

I've was visiting the following forum:
Forum Home >> Electric Aircraft Universe >> Electric General Discussion >> electric is unbelievably frustrating

There is a lively discussion going on about electrics and the frustrating motor standards, you may want to take a look and see how it eventually shakes out.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller
Old 12-17-2003, 04:38 PM
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donwojtas
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

I ran some tests on a re-timed 350 motor in the Formosa using an APC 9/7.5 prop. The 8 cell 720 nimh battery really sucks. I only got 9 ounces of thrust at full throttle. With 2 2100 LP cells ( less volts) I got 10.6 ounces of thrust. With an 8cell 650 nicad pack I got over 14 ounces of thrust. The nicad pack weighs 1.5 more ounces than the 720 nimh pack and really performs much better.
I have decided eventually to use a Razor brushless motor with the Castle Creations Phoenix-25 ESC and 3 lp 1200 ma for pwr. The Phoenix 25 allows programing the BEC so as not to over discharge the battery pack. This will allow me to plug the system into multiple aircraft with now mods. It should work great in my switchback.
Old 01-07-2004, 07:00 PM
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Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Hi Donwojtas,

I've finally finished the Formosa, picture attached. Yes we do fly in the snow here. I heard that you can make skis by cutting the large soda pop bottles, so this is my next project. The weather is -10 today and windy, so I'll probably have to wait till at least the weekend to fly.

The specs for the motor in the Formosa are:
Motor MPJET 25/35/20
Gear box 4.1:1
Prop 9X6 APC
Controller TMM 2512-3SPL
Battery 8 cell 900mah
TX 8103 Mode 1
Micro Servos

I don't know what thrust the motor will give me with the prop and batteries since I can't find the motor in the motor calculators.

Wieght is 19oz with larger motor, battery and paint.

It's -10 and windy here today and I'll have to wait till the wind dies down.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller
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Old 01-07-2004, 07:50 PM
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donwojtas
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Thanks for the info Wayne

Paint job looks great. Did you tape it and spray it??
Your power system sounds great. I was looking at the MPJET as it looks like a real bargain. Then I thought again about getting the razor 350 but they are almost impossible to find. After reading some comments about the astro 010 and talking with Perry at Aeromicro I ended up going with the astro 010, an A gear ratio (3.75) in the GWS box, the Castle Phoenix 25 ESC, and a thunderpower 3cell lp 1300 battery. I am going to start with a 10/7 prop and see how it goes. I had to hog out the plastic gear box with a dremil tool as the 010 is a wee bit larger then the stock motor. (with your gear ratio and motor I suspect you will end up with a larger prop. ) I haven't flown it yet with the new power system. If it is dry this weekend I'll give it a go and let you know how it went.
I usually have to land in grass so I have re-torqued the gear wire to move the wheels (fatter rubber ones) forward about an inch to stop nosing over on landings. Works pretty good. Even three point power on landings ended up nosing over. Maybe those soda bottle skis would work in wet grass.

I did find a loose elevator servo which would have given me some pitch issues. I had t aped the rudder servo in and jammed the elevator in with some wedges. The foam has no memory so it worked loose.

Hope you get to fly ours soon also.

Don
Old 01-07-2004, 08:13 PM
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

mxwrench, what retracts were used in your formosa? i've been interested in the formosa for a while, and some of the warbirds(but a freind can make me a very nice a-10 with ia home built CNC foam cutter) i'd like to put some retracts on my A-10 when i get it. thaks
Old 01-07-2004, 11:00 PM
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Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Hi Donwojtas,

Thanks for your comments.

The paint job was just putting on painters masking tape on in a sunburst pattern, then spraying red. The white (foam) is where I took the tape off. I then gave it a quick spray with a can of "sparkle".

I found the paint "bled" under the masking tape, so if you plan to spray foam, you should probably spray with a clear coat over the masking tape on first, to stop the bleeding. I used standard "foam safe" spray bombs from Walmart.

I went to Home Depot and bought an aluminum fence 30 in. "spindle" (the spokes in the fence) for $2.98. This is the right size to slide over the square piece of wood that GWS uses as a motor mount. I cut it to the length I needed, mounted the motor to it with wire ties, slid it on the wood and put a screw in to hold it in place - works great. Looks just like the GWS plastic gearbox mount.

Hope you find this useful.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller
Old 01-11-2004, 12:13 AM
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salmon
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

this is mine, with stock motor, HS 55s, 3cell 700mah kokam,
Edwin.
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Old 01-11-2004, 10:15 AM
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Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Hi Edwin,

Very impressive flying. What is your overall weight?

Thanks,

Wayne Miller
Old 01-11-2004, 01:04 PM
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salmon
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

the fishing scale shows 14oz even , I don't know how accurate that is.
Old 01-11-2004, 03:33 PM
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Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Hi Edwin,

That's a great weight, I can't seem to get my building weight down. Mine weighs in at 20oz. but it includes NiMh and 900mah 2/3 AA battery, and a MPJET Brushless 25/35/20. I think my bioggest problem is that I build with 5 min epoxy - did you use the GWS glue?

I'm going to have to try the LiPo's, I know they will save me a few oz.

I got my scales at Walmart, they are in with the dishes, they have a flat top and are used to weight food and cost about $10. The are rated at 1 pound, or 2 pound or 5 pound and are in pounds and ounces. My wife had a 1 pound so I picked up the 5 pound.

Thanks for getting back to me with the weight.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller
Old 01-11-2004, 05:03 PM
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donwojtas
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

Hi all

Flew with the astro flight 010 and 3LiPo's and was very pleased with the result. I do not think it is as good as the MPJET or the razer but was I able to do giant acrobatics and hover and flew three 4-5 min. flights with some power left. I used the A gearing in the GW gearbox (3.75) with 10/7 APC prop

Wayne I used 6 min. expoxy on mine except for the hinges and I came in at 12oz with no battery and my 3lipoly Thunder Power 1300ma battery pack is 3 oz for a total of 15. I used a digital cooking scale. Maybe your scale is off or you used lead based paint. (just kidding)
Edwin the fact that you can hover with the stock motor is amazing but running a 6v motor on 11.2 volts can give you a lot of power. Please let me know how many runs you get on the motor as I fear you may smoke it as MX Wrench did with the ball bearing 280. At nine bucks a motor it is probably a cheaper solution than going brushless though.

Happy flying
Old 01-11-2004, 06:14 PM
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salmon
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Default RE: F3A Formosa ARF Park Flyer GWS

I used 5 minute epoxy and 30 minutes for the hinges, the scale I'm using is from wall mart I found it in the outdoors dep. I think I paid $40 , this is my first electric I'm sure the motor won't last long , I have a himax coming

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