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One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

Old 04-20-2006, 08:14 AM
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five-string
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Default One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

For those who like delta wings and also like building you own planes , here's a wing that I have found to be nearly indestructible. It is made from the ¼" fan fold foam sold at local home stores, so actual cost of one airframe is around $1.30. You actually fold the foam just like you would make a paper airplane and you end up with an airfoil shape. Add your favorite power setup with a small 5-6" direct drive prop and you're set for hours of easy, fun flying. The website for the build is [link=http://www.mugi.co.uk/]Mugi website[/link]. Their version is built from coroplast (corrugated plastic), but I have been very successful with a fff version.

I am currently running a 480 Stryker motor and Stryker prop (5930) on mine with a 1250 mA 3 cell lipo and a 20 amp esc and getting great results. Flight time is about 10 minutes so I am soon going to build a second one with an outrunner brushless bp-21 motor. It also flew well on a 400 brushed can.

The plans call for a rear mounted motor but I found with brushed motors it is hard to get CG balance without adding weight to the nose, so I moved my motor/prop to the middle of the wing. It works great! And mounting the motor there was easy. It goes in between the layers making up the wing. Then a single zip tie through the wing layers around the motor and you're done.

I have converted the metric measurements to inches and also have measurements for a 125% version which is what I built. The original is around 31½" wingspan and mine is right around 39". So, if anyone is interested in my mods and plans let me know. I can post them on this thread.

I hope to generate some interest and get a couple folks into a Mugi mod forum. I think this build has more potential to be discovered.
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Old 04-20-2006, 09:56 AM
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five-string
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

These plans aren't the kind you print out and tape together. Just print them out and lay them next to your foam and draw everything out using the measurements and a yardstick. It's really easier than it looks. Hey, I did it and it was only my third build ever.

Here's the same 100% size plans from the Mugi webpage but with inch measurements...
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Old 04-20-2006, 09:29 PM
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

Looks cool I have been thinking about a DF delta. Got this one copied and may try it. Thanks!
Old 04-21-2006, 06:47 AM
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five-string
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

Welcome vicman.

I hope you do build it. Please post many pictures and flight reports.

I have had alot of good flights on my first one and am preparing for the birth of number 2. He will be faster and stronger.
Old 04-23-2006, 07:53 AM
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smitty9306
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

Hi String I have been eyeing your mugi it looks like a nice plane could you post more info ? Like motor size and anything else you can think of to help a novice like me build it?
Thanks
Jon
Old 04-23-2006, 08:01 AM
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smitty9306
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

oops sorry String i just reread your post and i see you listed the motor size and everything. Sorry.
jon
Old 04-23-2006, 08:22 AM
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smitty9306
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

String did you use a carbon fiber spar in your mugi?
Jon
Old 04-23-2006, 03:54 PM
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dhpilot
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

Alright! Here it is... I saw your post last night, WOW what a quick build!!! started around 10:00... Decided to try this wemotech microfan I had laying around... TP 1320, CC 20 with the astro 010, with some futaba micro gear... Testors spray enamel... some stickers from my HET sniper.... I hope it flys!!! Enjoy! D
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Old 04-25-2006, 07:36 AM
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smitty9306
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

Hi Dean thanks for the info on bending the foam. Have you flown the sniper wing with the ducted fan yet? It looks great!! Keep me posted on how it flies.
Thanks
Jon
Old 04-25-2006, 01:00 PM
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dhpilot
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

SUCCESS !!! Yes it flies! better than I expected... cruises easily at half throttle, handles 7-10 mph winds,does waggle some in the breeze due to the small vertical fins, inverted is no problem, can you say ROLL RATE?? Wow... now that I know its stable I'll snap some pics! Thanks five-string for the inspiration!!Dean
Old 04-25-2006, 08:44 PM
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five-string
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

First, welcome smitty and dean. I am unable to post several days a week due to traveling.

Wow! Dean, that is a NICE build! Thank YOU for the inspiration! And it flies! Too cool. I am humbled.

smitty, I did use a carbon fiber rod in my mugi. I don't know if it's necesasry or not, the thing seems so strong anyway but I did put one in, about halfway back maybe 2" in from each LE.

Anything I can do to help you along with a build don't hesitate to ask. I will send you some photos directly. Or better yet, I'll just post 'em here....

I am in the middle of building mugi #2. My first one met it's demise last week. I was inverted about 20' off the ground and decided to try an inside loop. It hit at WOT nose first. The motor ended up in the nose. I probably could have glued it back together but decided to strip it down and start over.

My new one is at 150% of original size. It's over 47" tip to tip, the largest wing I could make from a single panel of fff. I'm planning on using a geared motor to run a large prop and slow fly it to do some aerial photography. Should make for good protection of my camera with all that foam around it.

After this one is done I'm going to try one at 100% size and put a brushless/lipo in it to see how fast it will go.

smitty, I'm curious about the spray paint. It works good on the cut edges without melting the foam? Where's the in-flight pictures?!
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Old 04-25-2006, 10:20 PM
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dhpilot
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

Hey five-string! Kudos to you! thats a nice looking build too. how much motor is on the rear? I have four motors from a gws cargotrans that I nosed in from seventy feet that would fly one of these wings and look really cool! wasnt there a plane in the 50's that looked like that?a 4 motor wing? The cargotrans had plenty of power so a wing would really move out with this power pkg... the question is, what size??? suggestions? Whats your cg on the big one?
Old 04-25-2006, 11:57 PM
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

dh, the motor in the photo is a 400 brushed. It burned up when I tried a 8060 prop and toasted it. I then installed a 480 Stryker motor. It hauled butt till I destroyed it, but flight time was around 10 minutes with a 3 cell lipo pulling ¾ throttle most of the time.

Right now I am fitting the 480 to a gearbox and figuring where to cut the slot in the body for a mid-wing prop again as I like the way it handled and it's safer to launch. No prop sweeping past your fingers that way.

The Cg on Big Mugi is 330mm.

The multiple motors sound interesting. What size are they? As far as suggesting what size wing to build, I think I would go with something in the neighborhood of the same size plane they came off of or a little smaller to insure good performance. You don't want to go through the whole build just to find out it's too heavy to fly well.
Old 04-26-2006, 12:26 AM
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dhpilot
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

I have four of the 12 mm gws ips motor off of the cargo trans... have many gws 300 cans... I guess it just depends on how big I wanna make it ! I dont have enough prop adapters for the 300's and dont really want to buy anything ya know... I'll go with a full size sheet of FFF with cf this time, your right though... the smaller mugi doesnt need it. I like your mid wing motor placement idea and will use that on this one. Oh, by the way the mugi "sniper" is 11 1/4 oz all up in the air, the only airframe mods were the canopy and cockpit area, and the outboard fins, and I swept the trailing edge a 1/2 inch. cant wait to fly it again! moved the cg to recommended 8 7/8... was a little foward of that for the maiden so it should fly even better!!!
Old 04-26-2006, 01:53 AM
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

I would think two of the 300's would power it nice. Maybe that could be a starting point.

You really did a nice job on the sniper.

I just finished. Got everything ready for a trial run in the morning. I ended up rear-mounting the gearbox and motor just to make it easier to balance it when I put the camera in. For now I will use lead weights as ballast to simulate the camera until I get it trimmed out. For obvious reasons.

Designed this one with fold-down fins to make transport a little easier. I'll let ya know how that works out. Pictures tomorrow.

Look at the time. I always do this....
Old 04-26-2006, 11:50 AM
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

So far the test results for Big Mugi:

The 480 with a 6:1 gearbox and a 1147gws prop...
Seemed like not enough power to maintain flight. Wrong gears? 12-13A draw

The 480 direct with a 8040sf prop...
still not enough force to keep her going. 22-23A draw.

480 direct with 7040sf prop...
Success! Limited, though. Still struggling with low power. But flyable. 18A draw

480 direct with 7050 speed prop... 19-21A draw
less power than before, noisier. Flew slower.

Tower Pro 2408-21 brushless motor, direct with 7040sf prop...up next.

I learned I need to really heave this wing to get it to go. The 125% version I just held it by the center tail and shoved it away from me. Not this one. It needs alot of force.

Folding fins work great. I had read somewhere fins are somewhat of an optional item on delta wings. They stay in place but have a little lateral movement due to velcro fasteners.
Old 04-26-2006, 01:30 PM
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

dhpilot-
Your build looks really cool!! I like the D/F. I was looking at your pics and I was wondering, are those supports in the first picture? Did you make those up yourself? What were your dimensions on those and where did you locatethem on the wing? Is your wing a 100% size? Thanks WN
Old 04-26-2006, 11:52 PM
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

Hey WN, Yes the wing is 100%, and the bulkheads I made to develop the shape around the cockpit/ gear compartment. I ended up with three running tip to tip and 2 in the rear to slope to the trailing edge. It made for a neat looking airfoil too! The placement was 3" , 6" , and nine inches from the nose.the first and third are about 3/4 " tall and the middle one is 1 1/4 " tall. My next build is near complete[:@]!!! 150% Quad motor!!! and if they dont fly it, I'll strap a mega 16/15/2 on it direct drive!!! I know that will take it unlimited vertical!!................................ Hey String, Do you have a stryker prop for that 480? If the motor flies a stryker it should fly this wing even at 150%... at least I would think so... Geared you should be able to swing a 12/8 or at least an 11/8 and that should move it ok... especially for a camera platform...but it sounds as if you have the problem licked with brushless!!! Go MUGI!!! D
Old 04-27-2006, 05:46 AM
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

D, I do have a Stryker prop, they are 5930. I should have tried it before I took the 480 off. I mounted the bp-21 brushless but am having problem with my esc. The lvc isn't kicking in. I may have damaged a lipo by discharging it too far. Waiting to get info on it from dealer.

Best results so far were the 480 with a 7040sf prop. I don't have an 1180. I have a 1260 but would have to trim the ailerons back to swing it!

I think I'll build another one at 100% and stick a bp-21 on it. Should give unlimited vertical and good speed.
Old 04-27-2006, 04:24 PM
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

D, Thanks for the info.
What are you guys using to glue the wings down with? WN
Old 04-28-2006, 12:39 AM
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

Good ol' 5 minute epoxy from Walmart or Home Depot. About $1.97 for a tube and I usually use most of it when I build a plane.

Question for anyone: I got two of those BP-21 motors. They have a very long threaded shaft, about 3mm, I think. What is the purpose of all that shaft? I'm thinking about cutting it off where the threads stop because I use prop savers asnyway and they don't need threads. Only thing I can figure is the threads would allow mounting inside a cowl or nosepiece and let the shaft stick out far enough for prop to clear the nose...???
Old 04-28-2006, 07:12 AM
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

DHPilot, I love what you did with the Mugi, that looks marvolous. Keep up the good work
I also like the F-15 in the background, much better looking than mine, what motor are you using on it

String, remember proper protocal, if your builds stray from the Mugi you have to incourage them to come to Fun with Flat Foam

Old 04-28-2006, 07:14 AM
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

That's exactly right. Also on my flying wing I mounted the prop at the vary end of that shaft so I could get my motor as inboard as possible to cut down on the amount of nose weight I had to add.
Old 04-28-2006, 08:20 AM
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

Hi string I was wondering if u ever got an answer from gryason on the LVC on the tower pro esc's. Im gonna check mine out today before I use it.
Jon
Old 04-28-2006, 08:43 AM
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Default RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It!

Yes, smitty. Just chatted with Basil this morning via email. Here's what he sent...

Hi Mark,

I just received this..

From the Manufacture..
Hello Basil
Our ESC LVC is 2.7V/cell, so 3 cells is 8.1V. You also can set it as 3V/cell by programming card. Our default LVC is 2.7v/cell, but we also can set 3v/cell as your requirement.
Best Regards

Each volt meter has tolerance, so I bet thats why youre VM shows 8.06, so everything is working according to the specs.


I asked him how low should I go before i shut it off manually. He said......

Hi Mark,

You know if you ask 100 people of the LVC, you most likely will get 100 different answers. Part of me believes the all manufactures put the 2.7+- LVC there for a reason, but the other half is a sucker to the internet myth that 3.0 is the way to go.



So, I'm ordering the programming card. My Apache lipo charger won't charge if the volts get below 8.25 for a 3 cell. This way I can set the cutoff to 9v and be worry free.

Let me know what your tests show.

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