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Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

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Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

Old 03-11-2008, 01:28 PM
  #76  
critterhunter
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

Here's my input:

First, I didn't "grow frustrated" with the Stryker and decide to build this bird. They are apples and oranges and both have their place. My Bullet Proof Stryker thread is the result of the love for that plane, finding the the best ways to mod it for both strength and ease of use in the field, etc.

Secondly, what attracted me to the So plane wasn't how it might fly, but rather it's looks. I thought it looked like a tough little tank in the air, much along the lines of something like the wart hog. What also sucked me in was this plane seemed obscure to most of the RC community. I don't like following trends or building what everybody else has. Even when I do build somebody else's plane I try to modify it to my likes, building skills, and desired traits. I also have a thing for dual boomers and pushers which sucked me in more. Finally, I'm not a big fan of flat foam profile planes. I prefer EPS and having meat to the plane that I can hide electronics and such in.
The fact that this plane also performs like no other I've flown and handles low speed (as well as high) like a champ and is very stabile was just icing on the cake for me.

Do I think it's a very durable, cheap, and easy plane for a beginner to fly? Sure, I'd say it is. Not just because it will repair easy and is a good learning tool on building scratch built planes, but because it's fairly doscile in the air if you want it to be. The large h-stab and dual v-stabs gives it very good "traction" at slow speeds, etc.

Are there beginner aileron platforms out there? Sure, they may not call them beginner planes but some will fly really easy and are suitable for a newbie IMHO. Is the Stryker a newbie plane? I'd say yes. Not because it's necessarily the easiest plane to learn to fly (in some ways it is and in some not), but because it's durable, simply, and will glue back together numerous times while you earn your wings.

Should a rudder be learned before or after ailerons? I would guess that depends on what path you take. To me it was easier to learn ailerons and then rudder. Having that rudder on the throttle and left "dumb" thumb takes some practice without accidently shutting the motor off at the worst moment in time. I took my first step into RC with an Aerobird Challenger. VERY durable plane if modded right with some easy and quick things, mainly zip ties in the right spots. Maybe it's because I learned on one but I'm pretty fond of V-tails myself. They do handle different then rudder/elevator or elevator/aileron, but if you learn their unique traits you can do some pretty cool stuff with them. I think much of the criticism that V-tails get are from people who learned other controls first and then tried to apply those characteristics to the V-tail. You can't. Each control setup has it's own "feel" and disadvantages as well as advantages.

This reminds me of one guy I remember hearing say that the 27B was dull to fly because it wasn't an over powered brushless plane. I think this is looking at it the wrong way. The challenge isn't always going as fast possible, but pushing the limits of a the plane you are flying at the moment. Sure, the 27B is underpowered and can stall if you don't treat it right, but THAT'S the fun part...Trying to avoid that stall while pushing the limits with a particular stunt, or finding a way out of the stall without the torque of a brushless motor. I used to fly my Challenger and Extreme inverted a lot. Not because they were good at it, but because people said that couldn't be done on a V-tail with dihedral. The fact that it was hard to hold them there and proving somebody wrong was what was fun to me.

All I have to say for now until I read over more of the above messages, but that pretty much sums it up for me.

LlamaFragments, great job on the 3D drawing!


Old 03-11-2008, 11:19 PM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

Well, I set up my motor and reciever, got the propsaver mounted. I tried spinning it up, but I found a few problems...
With the TowerPro BP-21T has anyone have trouble with:
1. The shaft wobbling slightly
2. The mount and the bottom of the motor getting really hot when run for ~45 seconds

I have a 36a speed control (on accident) and a 11.1v 2250mAh 20c li-po. Are those good for this motor or did I go wrong somewhere?
Old 03-12-2008, 04:01 PM
  #78  
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

I have not been on here in a while. Looks like a bit of spirited discussion has been going on. I too have been looking for that perfect beginner plane. Inexpensive, easy to build and repair, easy to modify, wide flight envelope, good looks etc and relatively easy to fly. The SO fits many of these attributes to a T.

What I do know is that there are some characteristics that hold true for all beginner planes.

1. Speed kills (but it is nice to have when you are ready for it). - use a small bushed motor or go very easy on the throttle.
2. A poorly trimmed plane of any sort is not what a beginner should be starting with. - make sure you trim the plane before a beginner starts flying.
3. Wind is your enemy. -Avoid flying in any wind until you have a feel for true flight behavior.
4. Give yourself plenty of room (vertically and horizontally).
5. If you are not having fun you are doing something wrong.

If I were going to market the SO as an RTF it would take some real thought as to how to break it down for packaging without requiring a lot of assembly. In my mind that is what is stopping folks from marketing this type of design. Though there are some P-38s out there.

I did come across a thread discussing the use of a Stryker body with minimal electronics and motor to provide a very slow flying A/E controlled plane. The results seemed very good. It was as much a powered glider than anything else. With a very light weight Stryker build (the opposite of the Bullet Proof version) you have a slow flying aileron plane that can be used as a trainer. Same goes for the SO. Both air frames have good glide ratios. For a beginner though an $18 air frame may be easier to handle than building a SO from scratch.

Llama,

I just down loaded the Google Sketchup Model. Well done. I think more people should be working with this powerful and free program.

I will shut up now.

Cheers,

Old 03-12-2008, 06:26 PM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

i am thinking of building one and useing shafts from a BOW for the booms light weight and can run the control rods in them for the elevator and rudder great build ideas thanks
Old 03-13-2008, 12:57 PM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

Not enough time to read/reply at the moment, but wanted to remark on something else that I forgot in my prior message. From what I've seen and heard, the Freedom and Swift are not very good planes. Numerous problems with both of them, at least early on when I was keeping tabs on how they compared to the Challenger. Haven't read or researched them lately so that may have changed.

Like I said, I cut my teeth in RC on the Challenger, as did four or five other friends I fly with. One day I showed up at my friend's farm and another friend was flying this incredible looking plane with streamers trailing behind it. I was shocked that RC had come so far, being both cheap and now electric. I did know that electric RC stuff existing in the past, but I didn't know the performance and flight times where that good now...and that was with nimh packs and brushed motors! Luckily I got into RC at just the right time, when not only prices were falling at an incredible rate, but performance as also going through the roof with lipos and brushless motors. I got to see that transition and am happy I did.

The Challenger is one tough little bugger provided you do a few simple mods to it that take a matter of minutes. It'll survive the worst of crashes over and over and still come back for more. I think learning on a V-tail was a blessing because it along with the dehidral limits (somewhat) the amount of over mobbing the controls newbies tend to do when learning. The plane can "auto pilot" and correct it's self by just letting go of the controls (I'm not talking about the "ACT" junk they put in the Freedom, but rather the dihedral...etc). Having the up/down/left/right on the "smart" thumb and one stick, while the throttle was on another slider switch, made the learning curve a lot easier. The mixed flying modes also helped walk me along into RC. The fact that the parts were cheap and on almost any hobby store's shelf for Parkzone/Hobbyzone planes also made it fast and easy to repair the thing and get back into the air.

Later, when I took up flying the Stryker, I also had my share of crashes. This gave me the first taste of aileron's to a large extent and that was a different learning curve. This plane wouldn't self correct but rather acting like it was on rails and went exactly where you put it, staying there until you put it somewhere else. Again, a very tough plane with readily available cheap parts on any store shelf, but it's added bonus was the fact that it glued together so easily crash after crash. For that reason I would consider it a good learner plane, or at least the second step in a learner plane as it was for me.

But, a long way to get to your boiled down question...Aileron/Elevator versus Rudder/Elevator as a trainer? As I said before, I think there is more than one way to skin a cat, or walk down the road of RC, and so depending on what you start out with or want to do the answer to that can change. Knowing what I know now, I'd say that an aileron/elevator plane would be in some respects just as easy or even easier to learn on if it was configured right...IE: dihedral. The So 11 would be a first class choice, not just because of it's cheap and simple build/repair design, but also because the plane gives you a great "feel and feedback" to what it's doing. It's got more "traction" and "acts" more like you think it should act with response to various control inputs, if you know what I'm trying to say. The single aileron configuration also would help to buffer the over mobbing of the sticks that is typical of new pilots as said above.

Having rudder on a plane? I've only recently started adding rudder to my planes (within the past year or so) and am still hardly using it. Not that I don't want to, but I often forget I have it to play with. That's no lie. For instance, with the second maiden of So #4 I flew it without ever thinking about the rudders until I had already landed. Rudders are great but I think they get in the way of learning an aileron/elevator plane. It's better not to even have it on the plane until later when you have the other controls down well.

Old 03-13-2008, 03:51 PM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

The two replies by critter and one by fisher are VERY MUCH appreciated.

THANKS AGAIN !
Old 03-14-2008, 12:42 AM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

I want to see pics on what everyone is doing that will give others a better veiw on there own changes or build ideas for this and other planes made from foam.I like the idea of building a great plane and not costing you a arm and leg i was just wondering about useing different booms that would not cost a lot but round i quess it does not matter i even like the V tail idea for the same plane.I seen a camera plane made something like this but had large foam wings twin booms made from carbon arrows that are hollow and he placed his control rods inside the arrow to the elevator thanks for a great topic everyone
Old 03-14-2008, 01:54 PM
  #83  
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)


ORIGINAL: LlamaFragments

Well, I set up my motor and reciever, got the propsaver mounted. I tried spinning it up, but I found a few problems...
With the TowerPro BP-21T has anyone have trouble with:
1. The shaft wobbling slightly
2. The mount and the bottom of the motor getting really hot when run for ~45 seconds

I have a 36a speed control (on accident) and a 11.1v 2250mAh 20c li-po. Are those good for this motor or did I go wrong somewhere?
First, the 36 amp ESC and 2250ma 20 C (It is a 3 cell, right?) lipo are perfect for this motor. More amp ability than you need but it's always better to have more to keep the ESC and lipo cool(er). I normaly run 30 amp ESCs in all my park flyers, even if the motor is only drawing 12 or 14 amps. A 30 amp Tower Pro ESC from Hobby City is so cheap at $14 that it doesn't make any sense to shoot for a 20 or 25 amp ESC, and the weight difference won't really be much of anything. The only time I'd opt for say a 14 or less amp ESC is if I was building a park flyer on the real small end of size, like a plane that is small and light enough to fly in the front yard, indoors, etc. Even then I've seen people run much larger speed controls than they needed at the cost of some weight.

The lipo at 2250 3 cell (series) 20C is what is most comonly bought and used in most park flyers these days. It offers a lot of amp ability if you need it (45 amps, though it's never good to pull more than about 80% of amp ability to keep it easy on the pack). Sure, you could run a smaller pack, say in the 1000 to 1800 amp capacity range roughly, on this plane if you wanted, but the savings in weight would make it harder to balance the plane and would cut your flying time down. 2250 sized packs are the most universal to use in probably 75% of all park flyers. It's big enough to power a big plane (approaching sizes that wouldn't be considered park flyer anymore), yet small enough to use on park flyers that would be considered smaller than average...approaching the front yard sized planes. I'm using these packs to power my first EDF scratch builds real soon. Most EDF people tend to go 4 cell or more, yet I researched and found that the Hobby City 2.5 and 2.68" EDFs on a 3 cell and a 3900 k/v motor will put out some pretty amazing thrust numbers (23 to 25 ounces or so), while still keeping the amps well south of 40. These builds will be posted here when I start on them.

Remember this: A load (motor, light bulb, your TV, whatever) will only draw what it needs. What this means is that it doesn't matter if your battery is the size of a pack of smokes or the size of a garage, it can not cause the load (your motor) to draw more amps than it needs or wants and thus cook it. The only thing you need to remember is that the voltage must be what you want (a 3 cell versus a 4 cell, for instance), and that your motor shouldn't want to draw more amps than the battery can provide. If that pack of smokes sized pack can only deliver 10 amps but the motor wants 20 then you've got issues which aren't going to turn out well, more than likely you'll destroy the battery, but usualy the ESC simple shuts down the motor because the voltage drop caused by the excessive amp draw will go below LVC (low voltage shutoff you have the ESC set for). Same thing applies to the ESC. You want your input voltage (battery) to match what the ESC can handle, and you don't want the ESC being asked to provide more amps by the motor than the ESC is capable of delivering. It'll get hot and do a thermal shut down (if you are lucky). Now, ESCs can be "pushed" a bit beyond their rated amp draw provided you cool them real well, such as adding an extra heat sink and providing plenty of air flow. However, this is never a wise move. I do it on a 30 amp ESC because my 12T motor on the Stryker with an 8x6E prop is pulling close to 30 amps. I want to be sure the ESC stays cool as possible, and heat only causes resistance and wastes energy anyway.

Now, down to the problem with the motor. When you spin it you are seeing the shaft wobble only or is the bell also? If it's just the motor shaft then more than likely it's bent, and can be bent back into shape with some trial and error. Did you cut the shaft down so it is just long enough to allow the adaptor to seat properly? Extra shaft length will cause vibration and also the odds of bending it.

If it's the bell too then there is a fix for this and more than likely the shaft isn't bent as well. Remove the little C-clip on the back of the motor's shaft. There probably is a washer under it too. Now pull on the bell/shaft up front (it will be hard to do) and the bell and shaft should pull out of the motor. You'll notice a nut on top and bottom of the bell that holds the shaft in. Remove the top nut and bottom one and re-center them and the shaft in the bell. Spin it and see if you got it right. There might also be set screws holding the prop shaft inside it. If it turns out that the bell it's self is bent you can tweak it in a vise and strength it out. Spin it on a table or prop balancer or something until you get the thing straightened out. Once whatever you do above is done, stick the bell/shaft back onto the motor and spin it by hand, watching the back of the bell to see if it's magnets are wobbling and/or touching the stator. If so, remove and re-adjust. By the way, when removing/inserting the bell/shaft, make sure the bearings stay in the stator's shaft hole. There is one at front and back that the motor's prop shaft rides in.

If the motor is getting real hot after say 20 to 30 seconds of stationary running (with a prop on) then that's probably not normal. Either it's rubbing inside or you have too big a prop on it. Now, after roughly 30 to 60 seconds the motor can get hot regardless of if everything is OK. Remember that it doesn't have the air flowing by it that it would have in the air, and also that static thrust (on the ground) also doesn't allow the prop to unload (less resistance in the air), and so the amps will average 2 to 4 higher than what it would normaly draw. It's a fine line between when the motor should get hot, but I'd say after 15 to 20 seconds on a static run it shouldn't be hot. Warm, maybe.

I just had a BP21 that a friend re-winded (the one for So #4, in fact) run when I installed it back into the bell/shaft. You should feel a "cog" caused by magnet force as you hand spin the bell, but you shouldn't feel uneven "cog" or grab. That would be caused by something rubbing. Well, I hand turned the bell while looking in the back and couldn't see any magnets rubbing the stator. Removed the bell/shaft and didn't see any spots inside that might rub. So I decided to run the motor (without a prop) for about fifteen seconds and then checked if it was hot. It wasn't, so I did another run for about 30 to 40 seconds. Motor still wasn't even warm and when I hand spun it this time the grab was gone, so whatever was rubbing rubbed it's self away. Problem solved. Remember to pull the battery from the ESC completely before putting your hand anywhere near the motor because that's the only safe way, and this will also avoid any confusion if you have the ESC set to brake "ON".

Didn't mean to get so long in the message but it's a good overview for newbies to RC electronics anyway.
Old 03-14-2008, 01:56 PM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)


ORIGINAL: Fisher

I have not been on here in a while. Looks like a bit of spirited discussion has been going on. I too have been looking for that perfect beginner plane. Inexpensive, easy to build and repair, easy to modify, wide flight envelope, good looks etc and relatively easy to fly. The SO fits many of these attributes to a T.

Couldn't have said it any better, and the rest of your message was right on as well. Nice to see you are still popping in.
Old 03-14-2008, 01:59 PM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)


ORIGINAL: layback2

i am thinking of building one and useing shafts from a BOW for the booms light weight and can run the control rods in them for the elevator and rudder great build ideas thanks
That's a great method to keep the tail end really light on a dual boom platform. I thought about doing it for the So but one of the reasons why I like the So is it's "tank-like" blocky/strong looks. If you want to get even lighter going that route then think about doing a V-tail across the booms, either upright or inverted. That would really kill some weight and add to looks of the thin booms. I may do a build like this in the near future.
Old 03-14-2008, 02:01 PM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)


ORIGINAL: Swift427

The two replies by critter and one by fisher are VERY MUCH appreciated. They beg for more relevant questions. Questions not so much related to this thread's build/mod emphasis, but questions that every beginner to intermediate newbie wants to know whether they know it or not or whether they even know how to phrase the intent of their question without causing too spirited a response, clutter or confusion.

If it's OK I'm going to copy and paste your three replies on your other (Part I) thread for a continuation of this very insightful parkflyer beginner newbie to intermediate quest for knowledge.

THANKS AGAIN !
Fine with me. It'll help to avoid clutter (or more of it, I should say) in this thread which was created to condense and explain the building of this and similar planes.
Old 03-14-2008, 02:05 PM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)


ORIGINAL: layback2

I want to see pics on what everyone is doing that will give others a better veiw on there own changes or build ideas for this and other planes made from foam.I like the idea of building a great plane and not costing you a arm and leg i was just wondering about useing different booms that would not cost a lot but round i quess it does not matter i even like the V tail idea for the same plane.I seen a camera plane made something like this but had large foam wings twin booms made from carbon arrows that are hollow and he placed his control rods inside the arrow to the elevator thanks for a great topic everyone
You'll be getting pictures of my completed build #4 along with the build steps from where I left off on the first few pages. It's completely done now and ready for it's weekend maiden #3 (this time in completed form and a better motor k/v). I'm also thinking of going back through the old thread and snagging some important info, as well as pictures of prior builds from everybody and posting it on here. I also want to throw the flight simulator So module up that was found on there because it will help newbies get a leg up before doing the real thing. Give me a few days to get to all this. It'll be a long and painful search page by page for all this stuff.
Old 03-14-2008, 03:44 PM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

Swift427,

You might want a start a thread in the beginners section based on the discussion.
Old 03-14-2008, 05:16 PM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

Critterhunter,

It gets hot near the base, where the C-clip you're talking about is. The other thing is I stopped the motor and unplugged it when I saw that it was wiggling, and then I tried to see what the problem was. When holding the mount part (which was on tight and I made sure) the bell and shaft could wiggle back and forth very slightly. I don't think the shaft is bend, or the bell. The problem with it getting hot might be caused by this, IE the shaft is loose and rubbing. I'll try disassembling it tonight. I don't think the prop or the mount is the problem, because I'm using the APC 7X4" prop that...Someone recommended.

Hopefully I will have enough time to work on the plane this weekend. I'll probably assemble it and then have it ready to (possibly) maiden next weekend.

Oh! and I already have an idea for a next project: The "Custer Special"!
It's a 5mm foam dual boomer with a single custer airfoil and tailerons, and maybe elevons on the wing stubs. It'll be a cool one to experiment with.
Old 03-14-2008, 09:09 PM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

critter, what a neat thread. Our mutual fish friend turned me on to this site. I started on the last page to see what was currently happening. I love your creative spunk! Like yourself, I also love to do things that "cannot be done."

So, I thought it would be good and proper to read the whole thread before posting anything, but that neat airplane in your very first post just got me too excited to continue reading. Yes, I will get back and continue reading the rest of the thread and will probably embarrass myself for my current lack of self discipline.

Okay, in addition to other sound ideas, what really did it was that single aileron concept. Although I now use two flaperons (for ease of mechanical coupling) to minimize any unbalanced effects, in the beginning when I had an obsession with the maneuverability needed to dodge obstacles, etc., I found that an aileron ganged tuned to my rudder servo to be very effective on my Accipiter Badius equipment.

The two retiree beginning modelers I flew with the other day told me I was "cheating" to have my flaperons connected to my rudder servo along with the rudder. I plan to do the same kind of "trick" with my upcoming 3ch warbirds to get all the maneuverability I will ever need for my particular purposes.

Okay, If I can just control myself this time I will try really hard to get through the rest of the thread before I spout off again.

Thanks for having such a fun thread!

madwebtvscientist [sm=lol.gif][sm=cry_smile.gif]

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Old 03-16-2008, 11:43 PM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

Well my progress continues steadily at a... slow... pace. Today I got the aileron and rudder servos all set up and ready to go. If I have time over the week I'll get it all put together and balanced, but that's being extremely optimistic.
Old 03-17-2008, 06:23 PM
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

OK, as promised here are the build steps for my So #4 (of Foam Flyer's So 11) with my tweaks and adjustments from where I left off on page 1. The cowl and fuse have both changed since those prior pictures. Mainly, the fuse is a bit thicker and the cowl a bit bigger. Final dimensions of the plane on another day...

First photo...Some dowl rod getting ready to be sunk on top of the wing for my homemade aluminum motor mount to screw into via a nylon bolt once the dowl is glued in and tapped. The homemade motor mount will also be glued to the top of the wing. Again, I used Gorilla Glue for everything unless specified. I could have just glued the mount on without the nylon bolt but I didn't trust the shear force being put on glue alone. By the way, using two dowl rods in this fashion is an excellent way to bolt removable wings onto planes if you wish to do so.

Next picture...Everything glued in. The motor shown is the BP21, which has blown two or three custom winds thus far. I gave the cowl air inlet more cooling but it still blew on me again Saturday. Surprising, since I've drawn more amps from the stock wind on a BP21 on both the prior three So builds and previous Stryker builds. I guess this already inefficient motor needs plenty of air by being out in the open in order to avoid thermal melt down. Saturday night I threw a 2409-18T into her and Sunday had more power/speed without any overheating problems. This motor is very low amp draw, comparable to the BP21 (because the 18T is a lower K/V at around 1100 or so), and is bigger so it can get rid of the heat better. It's also more efficient so that helps keep it from getting toasty. Since this photo I've also moved the motor wires to a hole more forward on the wing to keep them further away from where I have the RX. I was getting some mild glitching on the first maiden of the plane.

By the way, dual boomer flew fine both days, though I still need to fix COG (it's nose heavy by a little, affecting it's looping and "float" ability). I also need to lower the aileron control horns to the bottom hole. One up from there and even at 125% rates it's not rolling very well, even worse then the prior builds with only a single aileron. I think I ran HS81 servos in those as well, which means the control arms on the servos were longer than the ones on these HXT900s, reducing control movement.

Next photo, you can see the servo wires have been all soldered up and the channels for the electronics/wires melted and them ready to be sunk. I could have used the proper hot wire tool I built to cut really clean channels but I was lazy. I believe this photo also shows the thicker fuse I used. Reason why I replaced the first one was it wasn't protected well on the belly and took a little abuse (just clear tape to quickly maiden it and the nose heavy COG made for some hard belly flop landings). It wasn't really beat up, but I also had melted the ESC/BEC chamber in the wrong spot and wanted it clean again. The clear tape in the photo was just to hold it in place while tracing out wiring/etc.


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Old 03-17-2008, 06:51 PM
  #93  
critterhunter
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

Next is of latest cowl with the improved venting. I used a plastic tube to direct airflow in, and also because it would look better on top of the cowl sticking out. Removed all excess foam not needed. This cowl is a littler higher than it needs to be to clear the motor. I may lower it to reduce drag.

Next photo is of the BP21 motor (before the 18T was thrown in), and you can see that I moved the wires forward to avoid the RX chamber. Notice also the foam nose cone I made to improve the airflow inside the cowl, so that it isn't just slamming into the motor mount, but rather is directed around it for less drag. This cone has also since changed. I'm making it bigger to completely cover the motor mount's back to eleminate as much drag as possible. It's kind'a cool because if you look down the inlet plastic tube you can see the cone in there, making it look like some funky jet engine.

Next photo is of the battery chamber lined with a plywood box (put together with epoxy) I put in. This was salvaged from another junked plane so the box looks pretty nasty, but hey it works and you don't see it with the battery cover on anyway. You can also see the two velcro loops I have epoxied to it to hold the battery in. The ply box was gorilla glued into the battery chamber so it would foam up around it for max strength to prevent fuse damage on a crash. If you used a carbon tube nose to tail in the belly you probably wouldn't need to line the battery chamber with wood like this.

This is where my nose heavy condition came from. Didn't think to put the box with the battery when sitting it on top of the fuse to figure out where the chamber should be melted to get COG right. Remember that this is the last step before covering/painting the bird. Most of your tape should be on if you are going that route, etc. You don't want to add something somewhat heavy to the plane after you've melted the chamber out and find out COG is now off, like I did with the ply battery box. I've got a strength mod for the v-stabs and where the booms touch the ground that should compensate and add to the durability of the plane, rather than just adding dead tail weight that doesn't serve a purpose.

Last is of the battery cover's bottom. It's got a hood scoop air inlet and the drilled holes for exit. Batteries have stayed nice and cool. Used a small plastic box I cut up to make the hood scoop. Magnets from a craft store to hold it on. Those are epoxied to the cover, as well as the scoop. As I said before, gorilla glue foams too much to trust with small areas like this. There are magnets sunk in the foam on top of the fuse for them to attach to. Make sure you are gluing the right side of the magnets in so they don't repel each other. The magnets and basswood battery cover didn't help my COG issue either. If you don't want to break the box/cover/magnets out to weigh with the battery when figuring out COG then I'd put your battery chamber where the plane is still a tad tail heavy (by about 1/4" or more) so chances are it will balance when the rest of that stuff goes in if you are using these things.

You get a hint of the paint scheme I went with by what's below. Guess I'll tell you what the name of this plane is going to be. It's big, bulky, tan, and has spots. I thought about a few names but the most ridiculous one stuck with me. I'm calling it the Sand Cow. Sure, you laugh now, but if anybody needs the perfect camo plane for desert landings in blown up oil fields this is the plane. More pictures later...
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Old 03-17-2008, 11:42 PM
  #94  
LlamaFragments
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

Critterhunter,

I like your enthusiasm with the modifications, but I think that there is still something to be said for how simple the plane is. I think that adding on too many gizmos kinda defeats the purpose.

Either way, I frantically made sure that the glue was set up correctly to dry on the wing. I will, for sure, have the plane done by tomorrow evening. Pictures will go up, but don't laugh because it's kinda messy. It's my first scratchbuild, and I haven't even built a kit before besides one of the Guillows models like this one [link=http://www.guillow.com/GuillowDetail.asp?UID=5645359&prod=4401&SeriesId=28&FamilyId=1]here.[/link] Dammit, I need to find out a time when I can fly this plane!!!!! NOW!

Edit: Critterhunter -- Put a camera on it: Instant UAV! Take that Lockheed!
Old 03-18-2008, 02:22 AM
  #95  
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

I'll post a few photo's of mine for you guys. I've built several of these.

Fisher, Critterhunter and Saucerguy back together building and affixing new levels to our beloved free foam flyer... I'm Glad to be part of our brotherhood, "sprinkles foam dust on all of us in the process, blessing them into the covenent of foam flyers awsome design that works for the masses religion" At least all our church requires donation wise is cheap foam and building materials, hehe.

Let us cointinue to make foamflyer proud here gentlemen and let his legacy continue on!
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:14 PM
  #96  
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

More build steps and photos...

First is of a closeup of the rudder servo in the boom under the horizontal stabilizer. I routed the 2-56 control rod up at an angle to a control horn at the leading edge of one of the rudders. I had to bend the rod to give me the proper angle without binding. I wanted the servos under the h-stab to hide them. I was planning on covering the inside and top of the booms in Tyvek paper as well (I did the bottoms and outside sides), which would have hid the servos, but didn't get to it. I may do this later on, but it'll require me to sand some of the paint off the foam so the covering will stick well. That's why you always paint last, as tape or coverings do not stick well to paint.

Next photo is of the elevator servo with it's control rod routed to the horn on the elevator. I'm using 2-56 fully threaded rod for all my control rods, nylon clevises, and rubber tubing to prevent the clevises from unsnapping. Only exception is the rudder servo's clevis at the servo control arm. I used a metal one here to prevent the added stress caused by the routing angle from causing the clevis to come loose. These metal clevises have a little snap ring that snaps over the dimple to lock it in place securely.

Next photo is of the rudder control rod hooked up to it. Notice I got the horn pointing down a bit to help ease the stress of the routing angle. Also notice the horn at the back of the rudder which connects to the same deal on the other rudder via a carbon tube. I glued 2-56 threaded rod into the ends of the tube and then screw clevises onto the ends of them to complete the linkage, providing total adjustability that won't be found using piano wire and z-bends. As a precaution, once I had the servos fired up and the linkage adjusted to neutral trim, I put a dab of glue on both clevises where they thread onto the rod to prevent them from spinning around with vibration, etc.

Final photo is of the aileron servos control linkages. Same type of setup. They are mounted at mid-aileron length and this provides less slop that mounting at the end of the aileron like most people do to save on servo wire length. I'll opt for less slop and solder the needed wire length up myself.

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Old 03-18-2008, 12:46 PM
  #97  
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

In the above and below photos you can also see that I lost some black spots on the weekend flights landing in the snow. For the tan color I sprayed on H20 paint which is foam safe and waterproof (Walmart or craft stores), but I used a craft paint I brushed on for the black camo blotches. Didn't know it would wash off with water, so now I've got to paint those back on using some black H20 paint. I'll spray it onto a plate and then use a brush to paint it onto the plane.

Next photo is of the belly of the plane where the speed control and BEC is (needed a BEC with this many servos, but with 3 or less no external BEC like this is needed on most speed controls). You can see I made some holes in the Tyvek (Extreme tape under it as well) to allow airflow to them. If you keep them in a sealed and small compartment like this without venting them, even if they have more amp ability than you need, things can get hold. If that happens the ESC may thermal shutdown and you'll only lose the motor. Not too bad, but if the BEC also thermal overloads then you lose the RX and servo control. Very bad. Same applied to batteries. Keep them cool. The battery cover on this plane with it's hood scoop and exit vent keeps the packs nice and cool. Also remember that exit holes should always big larger than entry or the airflow gets clogged and creates drag. On my cowl the exit hole where the motor shaft comes out the back is much larger than the plastic tube air entry vent.

Final four photos are of the completed bird. It's in need of a little paint touch up and some more spray glue at the edges of the Tyvek paper where I didn't have enough. You can also see a few wrinkles in the paper. This was caused by putting the paint on too heavy. It must have soaked under the Tyvek and depleted the 3M spray glue. No big deal.

You can also see the vertical stab struts I have coming down to the h-stab at an angle. I needed tail weight am my v-stabs were a little flimsy so I figured I'd kill two birds with one stone by using some 1/8" metal rod for the weight/strength. Normaly the v-stabs won't require this provided you stick bambo skewers or tube or flat carbon in them from top to bottom and into the booms a bit. I only used toothpicks this time and it wasn't strong enough for my tastes. I still need to add a little more tail weight so I'll probably make two boom skids out of basswood, or if that isn't heavy enough then metal, to get the COG perfect. They'll go right near the ends of the booms before they tapper upward as that's where they touch the ground. I could have sliced off a bit more nose but it wouldn't have mattered much in weight, and since the battery compartment was already made I couldn't move that back as well.

Which reminds me, another good mod tip for this plane for newbies...You could have your nose attached to the fuse via magnets much like I do for my Stryker builds. What this does is deflect a nose in crash as the nose pops off and forces the fuse to not hit the ground head on. This action also absorbs some of the momentum much like race cars are built to come apart on impacts. The detachable nose will also allow you to make and throw on a new one quickly should it get in bad shape. Make it out of a nerf-type foam (or spounge or something) to further soften the blows.

Once the plane was assembled I covered all the electronics/etc with Tyvek paper (construction material used for homes and such) via 3M spray glue (best on the market. others are junk and should be avoided). The spray glue can be sprayed onto the foam in light coats with it held pretty far away and it won't melt foam that way. Also do a few coats on the Tyvek paper. Allow them to dry and then do another quick mist over both of them. Allow that to set up for about a minute and then throw the Tyvek on. This will provide the strongest bond. This stuff holds paint great. It won't flake or come off. Foam usually holds it good as well, but Tyvek and other tapes will flake off the paint pretty easy.

To avoid this, I heard that sanding the tape a little and then spraying over it with 3M spray before painting will help it stick much better. Remember too that whenever using clear tape (I only use Tyvek tape now) or Extreme tape on foam, spray the tape with 3M spray glue first to give it a really good grab. Tyvek tape doesn't need this. While I'll use Tyvek tape on builds where clear was the norm before (hinges, leading/trailing edges, hiding electronics on wings and bodies that aren't going to be covered, etc), it doesn't replace Extreme tape for when I need very good strength. Such as from wing tip to wing tip top and bottom to strengthen a wing (normaly you don't need a carbon tube in the wing with this method), or on the belly and nose/front end of a fuse, etc. This tape can be found at Staples or other office supply stores and nothing beats it for strength and durability with no stretch.

I covered the entire belly and top of the fuse with one strip of Extreme tape. I then went back over that with Tyvek paper for even more strength and to provide a better surface for the paint to stick to. I did the entire wing, sides of the fuse, and bottom/outside sides of the booms in Tyvek paper alone. I was planning to do the inside sides and top of the booms as well, and this would have provided me with the extra weight I was counting on for COG purposes, but I never got to it. After the plane was covered but before painting is when I found the COG spot and carved the battery chamber out. I slit the Tyvek paper/Extreme tape on top of the fuse, removed that, and then melted out the chamber. Melting is always better than cutting as it will scare the foam and provide extra strength.

Will reply to any prior messages/questions later as I have to get off the computer for now. Remember, think about your build steps before doing them. Write them down so you know a sequence to follow if you have to. You don't want to paint or cut out a battery chamber until that's ready to be done. Look what I did with not weighing the plywood battery box, magnets, and cover with the battery. Now I have to add some tail weight to compensate, though it'll at least serve a needed purpose.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:59 AM
  #98  
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)

Sweet Cheetah theme you have going there Critter. I found the larger prop combo doesn't fare well optimumly for the design, the original ones I showed are using a 390 geared brushed set up, it was really slow, then the eflight with the 9/6 showed decent promise, especially when I coupled it up with a 11.1, 1000 mah lipo, I got excellent results once I put my TP bp 2409 with a 7/6 and 7/4 speed prop with the same pack, I used the same props on the speed 400 and they also outperformed the original stock setup I did earlier.

The pusher type of element is what's the defining differnce here, the tractor set up really worked most favorably going with the larger props regardless, I have another combo that's insane I'm showing restraint from showing here, yes, I'm going to tease you guys on this matter, but it's designed to haul around a 5 pound plane, current have it rigged up to a 14" prop and the motor and esc are quite cool after all of the flights in the process.
Old 03-20-2008, 11:40 AM
  #99  
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)


ORIGINAL: LlamaFragments

Critterhunter,

It gets hot near the base, where the C-clip you're talking about is. The other thing is I stopped the motor and unplugged it when I saw that it was wiggling, and then I tried to see what the problem was. When holding the mount part (which was on tight and I made sure) the bell and shaft could wiggle back and forth very slightly. I don't think the shaft is bend, or the bell. The problem with it getting hot might be caused by this, IE the shaft is loose and rubbing. I'll try disassembling it tonight. I don't think the prop or the mount is the problem, because I'm using the APC 7X4" prop that...Someone recommended.

Hopefully I will have enough time to work on the plane this weekend. I'll probably assemble it and then have it ready to (possibly) maiden next weekend.

Oh! and I already have an idea for a next project: The "Custer Special"!
It's a 5mm foam dual boomer with a single custer airfoil and tailerons, and maybe elevons on the wing stubs. It'll be a cool one to experiment with.
It sounds like there are two possibilites, based on how well I'm understanding your description. One, the stator's shaft hole is not seated and secured to the motor mount it came with. Depending on which version of this motor you have, it will have either one or two grub screws on the mounting plate that tighten down against the stator's shaft (don't confuse this with the prop shaft). Make sure the motor is inserted completely into the mounting plate and then snug down the grub screws. I always put a dab of nail polish around the edge of these screws as well as all others on the motor and mount. If you don't they WILL vibrate loose after time.

The other possible problem is you have a bad or missing bearing (probably the back one) that the prop shaft rides on. As described in the prior message, pull the bell/shaft out of the stator and look inside the stator's shaft hole at the front and back. The front one might be on the prop shaft just under the bell, coming off with it. This is more likely the cause because a bad or missing bearing will generate a lot of heat rather quick, while the motor just being loose on the mount wouldn't.

Old 03-20-2008, 11:41 AM
  #100  
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Default RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)


ORIGINAL: mad web tv scientist

critter, what a neat thread. Our mutual fish friend turned me on to this site. I started on the last page to see what was currently happening. I love your creative spunk! Like yourself, I also love to do things that "cannot be done."

So, I thought it would be good and proper to read the whole thread before posting anything, but that neat airplane in your very first post just got me too excited to continue reading. Yes, I will get back and continue reading the rest of the thread and will probably embarrass myself for my current lack of self discipline.

Okay, in addition to other sound ideas, what really did it was that single aileron concept. Although I now use two flaperons (for ease of mechanical coupling) to minimize any unbalanced effects, in the beginning when I had an obsession with the maneuverability needed to dodge obstacles, etc., I found that an aileron ganged tuned to my rudder servo to be very effective on my Accipiter Badius equipment.

The two retiree beginning modelers I flew with the other day told me I was "cheating" to have my flaperons connected to my rudder servo along with the rudder. I plan to do the same kind of "trick" with my upcoming 3ch warbirds to get all the maneuverability I will ever need for my particular purposes.

Okay, If I can just control myself this time I will try really hard to get through the rest of the thread before I spout off again.

Thanks for having such a fun thread!

madwebtvscientist [sm=lol.gif][sm=cry_smile.gif]

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Welcome to the thread and such a great plane for newbies or experts. Please post pictures as you build.

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