Shaun Evans

I thought maybe someone might want to have some discussion on this matter. I noticed the original post was locked as it was posted....

Jim Cattanach

Are we allowed to? If the original post was locked, they obviously are not seeking our opinions.

Regards

Jim

Shaun Evans

Are we allowed to? I think that depends on who you ask. If you were to ask in that manner, i.e. "May we openly discuss such issues?", then I think each Mod and the Admin would sound off a resounding "Of course." However, I've got my timer going to see how long it takes before this thread is also locked.....

I'm probably one of the individuals they're talking about. I've PM'd the mods several times over the last few months to point out what I thought was uneven or deferential handling of certain posts. I respect Marc's intentions with this thread, but I think the broad-brush approach of 'Our mods are always fair' is, with all due respect, silly. Even in a world far more perfect than this one, no group of moderators (of any kind) are going to be fair and even all of the time. In this particular case, it's a subjective matter of opinion. While the Admin may feel that all the claims of bias are unfounded, there are obviously some who feel otherwise. So--let's talk about it.....

Jim Cattanach

Dangerous territory. My experience is that any comment that questions the party line could end up with you being sent to Siberia.
I hope I am wrong this time!
Good luck.


Regards

Jim

Shok

My Feedback: (28)

[Awaiting Approval]

Adil Nasim

My Feedback: (61)

[quote]
Guys...some posters here seem to be having a very difficult time staying within the rules here. Some think it is ok to launch personal attacks or simply make up their own rules and then cry censorship when the moderator comes in to do their job.

Be rest assured there is a major difference between censorship and moderating to keep things civil and the flow of information moving here. I constantly hear cries that we don't let people say a bad thing about an advertiser but for those who wish to truly challenge that and put their money where their mouth is let me know and I'll show posts about each one of our advertisers that fly directly in the face of these absurd claims not only in jets but throughout rcu.

If this was "DisneyLand" where only positive things were allowed do you honestly think the site would be where it is today and still growing faster than ever? Those who shout these absurd cries are the ones who are posting personal attacks or making completely unfounded statements. Many of them are often found to be reps or friends of competitors which is disturbing when this sort of thing happens.

We have some very good moderators here who are very fair and even handed. Those who get a post removed tend to argue otherwise but that has always been the way since day one.

If you are going to say something negative make sure you do not make it personal. Be sure to express your opinion or facts clearly and not in any personal way. If you are going to make damaging claims about some company you must have some facts to back it up. It is not fair to any company whether advertiser or not to slam them in a completely arbirtrary or unfounded way. If you have facts then we encourage you to post them. Remember there is no such thing as libel or slander when you are telling 100% truth. Keep that in mind and you are guaranteed your posts will stand the test of time.

The forums are here to help share information about radio control and in particular for this forum jets. I am sure everyone is capable of acting in a mature fashion. It is not too much to ask. Most members do exactly this and never have problems. This is actually 99% of our membership. The other 1% seem to cause all the problems and also generate 99% of the complaints about rcu and its moderators. There is food for thought. So this is directed towards that 1% as we want you to remain on rcu and have you share your knowledge and opinions but won't do so at the expense of creating chaos or undeserved damage to any company from false statements.

_____________________________

Marc
RCU Site Admin



I am kind of thankful that we have moderators and the above post. I come here to learn and see RC Jets and lately, its been tough to sort through a lot of negative stuff to get to the stuff you are looking for.

Moderators definitely have a tough job as well. They have to do a job that WILL NOT please everyone. I have always been very thankful for the thankless job they do.

I can also remember in the past when the rules were "lightened" a bit to try things, and it got really bad and we lost of good "poster".

Hopefully it won't come to that. Lets just all get along a little better and let go of tiny and immaterial things that some may say...

Regards,

Adil

FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

Marc's point is very clear: be objective and carry on.

Jim Cattanach

Yes. Let's pretend everything is wonderful. Even if it's not.

Regards

Jim

FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

Note really, i.e you could post that XY models are crap because you have 3 of them that came with very thin formers, hardware that didn't fit and no instructions.
Or.....I have a "Jetdog" engine that will not start and the manufacturer will not service it because so and so.

None of them sound like personal attacks. You just have to back what you post.

Believe me I have insulted many manufacturers, you just have to be polite and objective. I've never been banned or moderated.

tomcatman

My Feedback: (2)

Thank you David. Sometimes these things have to be spelled out, hence Marc's post, among others. Regards,

Richie

Jim Cattanach

Falcon. Yes, I understand what you mean. I just wish some debate that contested what the interpretation of the rules are, was allowed on the forum. We seem to be living in a straightjacket, afraid to express an opinion lest we be punished.
There is more debate on Sesame street.
However rant over. Anyone got any other opinions.

Regards

Jim

Shaun Evans

Well,

You're both right. I don't think objectivity is the point of Marc's post, though. It is a fact that most people come here to learn and socialize with their fellow modelers, and that only a few people seem to be here to cause trouble, but for those that have gripes and complaints, their voices are just as worthy of being heard as anyone's. To characterize those who speak up as 'trouble makers' and those who don't as 'the good citizens of LaLa Land' is a tactic that's as old as the Bible.

Of course most of the moderators do it conscientiously and fairly, but there are some people and some situations under which an advertiser (for example) might be dealt with differently than a non-advertiser. Nobody's gonna die from it, but some people still don't want to be told is isn't happening when they know it is.

Jim Cattanach

In less than three hours this thread has generated almost as many hits as the thread we are talking about has in three days.
It just shows you what the power of free speech can achieve.
This site could be so much better if it was only allowed to.

Regards

Jim

tomcatman

My Feedback: (2)

No offense Shaun, but I think you may have missed the point. No one, not even Marc has stated that those who have gripes or are making complaints are not worthy of being heard just the same. It's all about HOW YOU DO IT. Don't make it personal and back up your statements with facts.

Jim, freedom of speech, that I am aware of, has never been an issue here. It's all about how you "choose" to go about it. Re-read the point I made to Shaun in the first paragraph of this post. The problem is, many "choose" not to abide by rules set forth in an effort to keep this a fair entity for all to enjoy. I know for a fact that many of you, and I'm not referring to anyone in particular, but you know who you are, think this is just a big game for your own entertainment. Some individuals enjoy stirring the pot and then expect to be heard when they want to cry cencorship on account of things not going their way. NONSENSE.

Do moderators make mistakes? ABSOLUTELY. This job can be frustrating and we're only human, myself included. It's how we rise from our falls that defines us. With all due respect to everyone here, I believe Marc hit the nail right on the head and David only further emphasized the obvious. BE OBJECTIVE and we'll all get along just fine and everyone will be heard. If you can't handle that, then a censorship is, in essence, what you're asking for IMHO, but I believe you won't find that here. Regards,

Richie

Shaun Evans

Tomcatman,


No offense taken. I don't think I've missed the point, though. Marc's post states pretty clearly that the majority of the claims of censorship are 'ridiculous', etc. If you're saying that people shouldn't point out what they perceive as censorship or uneven application of the rules in a way which is hostile and abusive, then I agree completely. With all due respect to you, I think your take on the state of things here may be a bit 'rosey', but if that shows you to be a positive and "the glass is half-full" person, then I think it's awesome. Again, none of this is life-and-death stuff. It's just a hobby, I suppose....

ravill

My Feedback: (11)

Maybe we should try to post our discussions in "other" places in the net and see how they compare. Then we can make an objective opinion to where we can best share our RC interest online.

Raf

tomcatman

My Feedback: (2)

Thank you Shaun and yes, you're right, I am a "glass is half full" person and I appreciate that you're able to see that. I don't want to come across as naive and believe me, nothing in life is rosey unless your name is Donald Trump or Bill Gates and even they have their share of problems. Life-and-death stuff? Of course not. Principle on the other hand, can be just as dramatic for some people I guess. I try to be fair and give everyone the benefit of the doubt, until they give me a reason to stop doing so. I'd like to ask you to carefully read Marc's post one more time in its entirety. I believe you may be adding words that are just not there causing you to misinterpret the overall message. Claims of censorship, IMHO, are not to be taken lightly. To imply that they are ridiculous is not only unethical, but also a flagrant disregard for Freedom of Speech. So with that in mind, where does Marc actually knock anyone for cries of censorship OTHER THAN instances where these cries are not substantiated by facts? And I quote...

"If this was "DisneyLand" where only positive things were allowed do you honestly think the site would be where it is today and still growing faster than ever? Those who shout these absurd cries are the ones who are posting personal attacks or making completely unfounded statements."

And for those who may still have doubts, he actually makes a challenge....

"I constantly hear cries that we don't let people say a bad thing about an advertiser but for those who wish to truly challenge that and put their money where their mouth is let me know and I'll show posts about each one of our advertisers that fly directly in the face of these absurd claims not only in jets but throughout rcu."

I agree that too many have suffered, advertisers and non advertisers alike, from personal attacks that weren't backed up by facts. No one is saying, DON'T COMPLAIN. Just that if you do, give facts as to why, don't make it personal and do it civilly. Even though this is "just a hobby", is that really too much to ask in the interest of keeping information going on here so that we may all get out of RCU what we come here for, besides stirring the pot for our own entertainment? I firmly believe my point has been more than made and I will post no further on this subject unless it's absolutely necessary.

Richie

Shaun Evans

You're a solid guy, Ritchie

mvigod

Shaun,

I see you started this thread so people could discuss something I locked as you noted. I must have locked it for a reason? I was making some statements of fact and to further ignite this very issue makes little sense.

Not sure where you stand on this exactly. When you had a post with somebody complaining about not geeting goods from you when you were busy with production you asked the mods to remove it so you could take the issue offline. The moderators did this for you so in this case because it suited you was the "censorship" or moderation acceptable and up to your standards?

marc

Jim Cattanach

With all due respect. Hiding the thread in a dusty old corner does not really help matters.

Regards

Jim

Shaun Evans

Marc,

I don't know why you locked it. I could guess, but I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings. Also, check your facts on that mud you just slung at me. I don't believe I asked any moderator to do anything (not that I didn't appreciate it, but I didn't ask).

Let's get something straight: You locked it because you don't know the difference between statements of fact and your own opinion. You make very self-serving and, in some instances, silly comments and then later report them as facts. You locked it BECAUSE YOU CAN. Maybe you don't want to hear the other side? Maybe you have some reason not to want to have open debate on the matter? Who knows....

At any rate, you can't eat your cake and have it, too. We members are not just dollar signs (or, at least, we shouldn't be) to you. You want us to come in and pay, pay, pay, but we're not robots. Inconvenient as the fact may be--we're people, and people don't like to be shushed. People like to have their free say. If you have a customer-based business, then you should be able to deal with the customers that come with it. Don't kid yourself, Marc, RCU isn't what it is because of the pop-ups or the RCU stores or the ten zillion other things you find ways to get us to pay for. It's what it is because of the people who were here in the beginning to attract the rest of us. It's here because of the Tony Frakoviacks and the John Redmans from the early days. Please try to remember that, and show them (us) some respect when we point out to you that you're not being fair.

And moving this thread to a dusty ol' corner makes you look very, very puny.

mvigod

Shaun,

So it wasn't censorship when a moderator removed that nasty post somebody made about you or your company. That time it was ok right? You are no being hypocritical right that it is ok to remove something in the forums when it serves you. Heck you even admit to appreciating this deleted post. How nice of you!

And not sure I understand what you mean by have members come in and pay, pay, pay. Let's look at rcu's content and just how much our visitors shell out to view it and use any of our tools shall we:

Discussions: Free to read. Free to post. No registration even required.
Marketplace: Free to read. Free to make offers. Free to place ads. Free registration required
RCU Magazine content: Free to read for anyone. No registration required
Community tools, locators, etc: Free to read and use
Photo Gallery: Free to look at photos. Free to upload photos
Videos (and rcuvideos.com too): Free to view videos. Free to upload unlimited videos

Not sure I get the pay, pay, pay dollar sign membership analogy you make Shaun. You are making yourself look uninformed here and invite you to stop doing this to yourself before you make yourself look even worse.

Now moving this thread doesn't make me puny Shaun...it only serves one person and that is to not expose to those who you think are your "friends" how uninformed & hypocritical you really are. You can thank me for saving you the additional public ridicule in the higher traffic area of our site which your peers frequent.

Oh yeah..as site owner I can lock this and have the last word. If you don't like that I strongly urge you to go patron other sites or even build your own forums and do it better. If RCU is so bad it should be very easy for you to blow us away and capture the entire jet communities heart and mind with your vision and business accumen.