warbird addict

An easy end to the E10 problem is to simply treat your fuel with "star tron" it is an enzymatic additive that completely reverses any and ALL ill effects of E-10.
I use it in all my planes, vehicles, motorcycles,lawn mowers and the end result is night and day, but bear this in mind if you decide to use it plan on retuning your engines "for the better" they run better, make loads more power, run Much cooler at leaner settings and start a hell of alot easier, it will feel as though you are flying a new airplane, when treated the fuel will be just as good a year later as the day you mixed it ,unlike untreated fuel which having gone through "phase seperation" should be disposed of.
Star Tron warrantees ANY engine at a full value replacement if it is determined the engines failure was due to it's use of the additive, you cannot ask for better than that.
In my vehicles and planes I have personally noted better runability , power and mileage to a great degree I get 120 miles More per tankful of gas in my F-250 and it runs about 15 to 20 degrees cooler ,a $19 jug (12oz) treats 128 gallons take this for what it's worth I've been using it for over 2 years now, I leave my plane carbs wet when I put them up for the winter and havent had to rebuild a carb since unlike the E-10 stuff left wet for ANY extended period of time.

darrolair

For the purpose of using ethanol gas in our RC engines, put it in and run it.

Do be aware of what ethanol can and will do to metal fuel tanks in vehicles, portable engines (eg) lawn mowers, welders, water pumps, etc., and full sized aircraft. I have a friend who had been using E10 pump gas in his full sized aircraft. He wanted to change the size of the aluminum fuel tank in this airplane. Cut it open only to find lots of corrosion. I have experienced lots of problems with small portable engines using E10 due to rust coming from the tanks, after periods of setting without operation. Also having problems with moisture freezing in inline fuel filters during winter months. If you have a metal fuel tank, whether in your vehicle, or small engine, or full sized aircraft, be aware of what can happen.
Darrolair

tony0707

HI
IN very COLD WEATHER we added DRY GAS ( a kind of alcohol ) to the fuel tanks as water would form as a result of condensation forming in our cars gas tanks in the cold temps ( less than a full tank ) it would mix with water in the gas tank to allow the water to burn and pass through the engine with no problem- DRY GAS should do the same with any water the E-10 would attract i would think DRY gas is very cheep water in the gas solution ,around a dollar a bottle ,it will also add some more power to the engines performance from my own racing experience IT is used to prevent water from freezing in the metal gas lines to the carb in extremely cold weather it has always worked wonders to help water in gasoline to burn through the cars fuel system and it is CHEEP TO USE BEST REGARDS TONY

warbird addict

adding Isopropyl alcohol to an already corn alcohol based fuel to combat the hydroscopic effects of corn alcohol based fuel HMMMMM guess I'll pass on that theory thanks LoL

warbird addict

All "drygas" does is raise the cloud point of the water in your system it serves no function to rid the system of it or reduce/ eliminate the hydroscopic effects of the fuel BIG difference

pe reivers

What Aspen sells is alkylate fuel. And yes, it is more expensive than pump gas. And yes, you can set your mix aside for two years if need be, and it still is good.
European fuel uses RON ,which essentially is low rpm knock resistance. Standard is 95, premium is 98.
MON is high speed knock resistance
US sells most fuels as PON (pump octane) PON=(ron +mon)/2

Had you cared to check the RON and MON ratings of aspen fuel, you would have known it not "essentially pump gas". Aspen rating are much less apart than pump gas.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Here's what I do and have been doing for many years.

Add oil to the can based on the quantity of gas I intend to buy. Go to gas station. Add "X" amount of premium gas to can. Shake can. Go fly. When done, put plane in the shed and forget about it until next time. It really isn't any more difficult than that. All the questions about gas and ethanol are such a waste of time.

I've got engines that have been sitting for years. When I need one I just bolt it up and start them like any other engine.

jedijody

My Feedback: (1)

But hey, the 3 of us just research, develope, test, run, and repair 2-stroke model airplane gas engine for a living all day every day so what do we know?

gkamysz

My Feedback: (19)

Oh come now, everyone is an expert on the interweb.

TimBle

By much less apart you means the Sensitivity of the petrol is lower. This simply means the anti knock performance of the fuel does not change much under load.
Aspen 2Tis RON95/MON92. So I assume you are basing the higher octane rating on the MON value, which in my opion is the more important octane value of the two.

It consists of Naphtha (Light Straight run >C5 with cut point from 82.2C to 93.3C), Alkylate (C7 &C8 branchedhydrocarbons chains), and Isomerate (C4 to C6 branched paraffins). It is NOT astraight runAlkylate.
Granted looking at the product data sheet it is also not pump petrol/gasoline since the aromatic content is too low and almost no olefins. This stuff smacks of unleaded racing fuel missing a few components. It sounds similar to the stuff ShellHarburg refinery sells to racing fuel blenders in Europe.

Agreed, it is a great fuel. If all fuels could be just alky we would have less smog albeit no less CO2. Its main advantage is that it burns extremely quickly, an advantage to a high revving 2 stroke engine.

Their advertising is little misleading though since the premix cannot be clean burning since it has oil in it and oil emissions are far from safe.

MinnSpin

My Feedback: (40)

That's a neat image of the Cross appearing in your avatar.

In Minnesota, we are quite familiar with Ethanol. Typical blends are 10-15%, which can be easily maintained using Seafoam or Stabilus. The main problem with Ethanol is the high water concentration present in the fuel. To avoid any problems, I would suggest using an additive like Stabilus Marine which is designed for outboard motor preservation - by evaporating water within fuel through molecular breakdown.

I might also suggest mixing your gas with Amsoil - synthetic oil, but GOOD.

Jesus Blessings.

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

well, after reading what "tired old man" had to say. i'm gona have to try water in the gas thing, just to see if it gets a more vigorus reaction than he gave?

Joe

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Don't know myself Jody. Since I've been flying gassers in California since they started adding 10% ethanol and Lords know what else 15 or 20 years ago I'm still trying to figure out why there's a sudden sense of alram about 10% ethanol. With 20 years of experience using the stuff I figure I would have notcied by now if there was any real issues with it.

Some people hear that the friend of his flying buddy said to.... Some real advice for those getting advice at the field. If the person isn't flying a gas engine, ignore them. If they are into their first gas engine, really ignore them. Don't take advice from anyone that doesn't have at least 5 years continuous in flying gas engines, and even them question it with common sense. If it's someone that flip flops back and forth between glow and gas, question their sanity.

Tcat1000

My Feedback: (34)

OK..........I have listened to about enough of whether ethanol is a problem or whether it isn't.....................It's about time that somebody sets some of you guys straight.........read on.............

I am a recreational dealer & mechanic of over 45 years. Snowmobiles, ATV's, Watercraft, chain saws, Grass trimmers, leaf blowers....Etc Etc...........

The ethanol in our fuel has been causing serious issues for quite some time. Ask any boat dealer.

Here are the facts & I mean FACTS!

Ethanol eats some internal carb components!
Ethanol eats aluminum!
Ethanol eats fibreglass & gelcote.....Just ask some of those that have an older boat with built in fibreglass fuel tanks!
Ethanol eats some rubber fuel lines off our equipment! There has been a lot of fires because of this...............
Ethanol eats silicone fuel lines.
If using ethanol fuel & through hydroscopic action, (water absorption) when a certain amount of water mixes with the ethanol, it "PHASE SEPERATES" & the water & ethanol falls out of suspension & ends up in the bottom of your tank or float type carb. If your tanks is made of steel, you will get rust! If aluminum, your will get corrosion. If fibreglass, it will eat it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the case of your tank, where does your fuel pickup sit? YUP! At the bottom. Now your fuel pump sucks this mixture up & sends it to your carb or fuel injecters plugging up filters & also your expensive injectors.

Why do you think that the FAA prohibits use of Ethanol fuel in private aircraft? HUH?

Most all fuel tanks of a few years old have residue at the bottom of the tank that just sits there. Ethanol will start to clean that residue & guess where it goes.............

It has also destroyed a bunch of my customers fuel injection fuel pumps as they don't like to pump water & ethanol if the above phase seperation happens.

Do not use old fuel that's been sitting over a month or so. Buy from high volume stations...........

Will everybody be affected? Probably not, BUT your day is probably coming & when it bites you in the hiney remember this post!

OK.......I'll quit! But before I log off, again, I deal with this issue every day in my business. Those of you that don't think Ethanol in our fuel is a problem are just plain clueless.............

Please do this before flaming me...........

Go to "GOOGLE" when you get there type in these three words..........."Ethanol Fuel Issues" & also "Ethanol Fuel Problems" Then sit down & weep & cry....................

OH..........One more thing............The EPA just authorized 15%...........It's coming to a station near you soon.......................Good luck!

OH......I forgot to mention that the use of 15% is only authorized for use in 2007 or newer vehicles or others that are set up for ethanol. (Flex fuel etc)

Tcat1000

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Tcat, great post!

Joe

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Initially there were a great many issues with ethanol in gas. You brought most of them up. Incompatibility with certain rubber compounds was the worst of them, which has been pretty much eliminated for over the years since ethanol has been introduced. The recreational people are not the quickest to upgrade anything if they don't have to, but you can pretty much bet their cars have been compatible for a long time. MTBE was pretty hard on some rubber compounds too.

Fiberglass. Hmmm. There's a lot of people that have been flying composite planes for quite some time now. I have yet to meet one that has experienced any impacts on the finish from ethanol in gas. Then again, we haven't been bunkering ethanol blended fuels in the fuselage so you may have something there.

Fuel injection pumps. Yes, running a tank dry can be mighty hard on them. We've known about that since GM came out with their injection systems back around 1954. Even people using carbureted engines have known not to run a tank dry if it can be avoided. Whatever the station pumps failed to filter out made it to the gas tanks, which is why we have gas filters in our vehicles. Good idea to change them periodically. I suppose auto makers have always had a reason for listing gas filters in the normal maintenance schedules. Used to have to replace the one in my old Toyota every 40k miles or so, and that was before ethanol. Carbureted too.

Aircraft are not permitted to use ethanol blended fuels for the same reasons older cars and motorhomes had engine compartment fires way back when. The hoses and carb components haven't been upgraded to be resistant to the product. To certify a new part rakes a lot of time and costs a great many dollars. Probably faster and cheaper just to ban the use of some fuels instead. Are you aware there is a very heavy push to do away with the old av gas? Changing things over to "green" fuels is the direction it's headed in aviation land. I used to own a full scale that had an auto gas STC btw.

Alcohol corroding aluminum. Another hmmm. None of the engines I work on exhibit any indication of that. Perhaps that could be more of a galvanic reaction with chemicals and minerals (salt) in the water? Isn't that why they put zinc anodes on boats that remain in the water?

I have no reason to like ethanol but I recognize when it's getting pretty hard to get around it. I've also taken the time to learn when and where it's going to be a problem, and that's generally with engines and associated products that are not using hoses and other components considered current on the market. Somebody that insists on using old style hoses would have serious problems with ethanol. Same applies to the fiber and rubber components inside carbs. Parts designed to be used inside them when ethanol blended fuels are used have been on the market for a VERY long time, so the opportunity to make use of them has been there, but deferred for whatever reason.

378

My Feedback: (4)

I call BS on this. My Ford F150 runs better on the E10 than it does straight gas. My mileage stays the same(I dare you to find another 25 year old pickup that gets more than 15 to a gallon lol), but the E10 gives me a better idle, crisper throttle response, easier starting and a bit more torque just off idle.

So explain why, after 25 years and 275,000 miles, the tank, lines and pickup in my F150 are hunky dory.

Go on. I'm waiting.


While you're at it explain why my carb doesn't need to be rebuilt every few months, or why I didn't change the mechanical(RE: Rubber diaphragm) fuel pump until 250,000 miles?


If E10 was anywhere near as damaging as you claim it is I should have all new fuel system components from the filler cap to the intake manifold. But I don't. The fuel pump and carb are all that's different, and even those weren't replaced for decades.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Capt'n,

It's not really the gas makers raking in the bucks from ethanol, it's the large farm consortiums. Al Gore was the one that pushed the hardest for the stuff, and he later admitted he pandered to the farmers in two states to get their votes. The eco freaks jumped all over the concept without knowing anything about what they were talking about, adding more drive to the push. So blame a politician looking for a job on this one.

Adding ethanol to gas really isn't a good thing but there's money in it for some that hadn't been getting it before. We are not going to escape or avoid it. Soon, very soon, ALL gas sold in the U.S. will contain 10-15% ethanol so better to be prepared, not avoid. As for higher food prices, depend on it. That means someone else will be receiving more for less. It's always about the money.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Back in the late '80's/ early '90's, gasoline had MTBE instead of Ethanol. Mileage was about 10% better than with the Ethanol. The MTBE was poisoning the ground water?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_tert-butyl_ether

TimBle

MTBE is the culprit wrt to affecting fibreglass tanks etc. Any Ether based oxygenate in gasoline creates those problems. When using MTBE in an aquatic recreation application one needs to ensure that you purchase fuels with corrosion inhibitors to delay any corrosion due to the  high oxygen content in the fuel.

AS far as Ethanol in Gasoline is concerned the issues mentioned have ot surfaced for around 20 yrs if good quality fuel is purchased from a reputable Oil co.
However, the advent of s"superstores" that also have fuel retail sites has certainly lead to a lowering of quality of fuel offered to the market since many of these retailers do not additise the fuel they sell. they purchase unadditised fuel direct from a depot and save on additive cost.

Current fuels sold by Oil majors in E10 markets utilise the appropriate additive packages from Oronite, Lubrizol, BASF, Infineum etc. these additive packages have the appropriate corrosion inhibitors.

Here in SA we don't don't have E10 as grade but we do see imports with Oxygenates up to 12% (MTBE, ETBE, TAME and trace Ethanol) and aslong as these are maanged inpipeline transportation they donot create problems in the fuel market.

W8YE
Yes MTBE, TAME and ETBE do contaminate ground water hence the use of these octane boosting Ethers has been dropped in favour of Ethanol. If a Refinery does not have sufficient Alky then Ethanol is a god send. Alky is the Holy grail but it is expensive and the manufacture of it brings hazards that you don;t want to know about hence not every refinery has it.
In the USA, where there is a surplus of Corn,your government prefered to create a guaranteed offtake for this crop by mandating the use of Ethanol in gasoline in some states. Only about 2/3rd of the refineriesin the USA has an Alky plant

TimBle

None of the concerns he raised are valid with the exception of the phase separation in the p[resense of water.I would'nt get too tied up about it. There is still a lot of ignorance about Ethanol in gasoline and it'll only change through education. Its just that our RC community seems to me the most resistant to learn unless its from someone who has been twiddling sticks for 100yrs.
Want to find out the truth about Ethanol then call up one of the Oilco Call centres and ask to speak to a technical advisor on Fuels.He or She could send you literature on E10 and debunk much of the rubbish thats spoken at the flying field.Hence I seldom take advise from RC flyers on fuel.Its worth listening to concerns but if you want facts speak to the people who hsve had to make it work with their crude oil or gas derived liquid fuels manufacturing.

Of course then there is the opportunity created by fear to market aftermarket additives e.g one wasmentioned in an earlier post.
If you buy gasoline E10 from a reputable source then there is no need for such additives. Buy it rom a superstore and you're on your own.

Tcat1000

My Feedback: (34)

Hmmmm............If you think Ethanol fuel is so da** good then you need to see this statement right from the EPA site...............This is what's coming..

What Vehicles and Engines May Not Use E15?
All motorcycles.
All vehicles with heavy-duty engines, such as school buses, transit buses, and delivery trucks.
All off-road vehicles, such as boats and snowmobiles.
All engines in off-road equipment, such as lawnmowers and chain saws.
All MY2000 and older cars, light-duty trucks, and medium-duty passenger vehicles (SUVs).

Above taken from this EPA site http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/e15/#use

Notice it says "NOT USE".............Do you think that this fuel is not going to get into older units?

Like I said in my previous post..........some of you are clueless............

Hey, what am I crabbing about! This is job security for my business........It's just too bad the general public has to take the hit because of this practice.

Every area is different also. Straight fuel here is very hard to find. A few marinas have it in the summer only & they charge an arm & a leg for it. There are a few areas that have a fuel called R-90 at some of the marinas.

I do not have any issues with ethanol fuel in my cars & trucks either other than less MPG's..........Yes it is a fact that e10 fuel gets less MPG's. like it or lump it!

The problem exists when this blended fuel sits! If it sits long enough to let too much moisture through hydroscopic action or water in your system for whatever reason................This "Phase Seperation" occurs taking the Ethanol & water to the bottom of the tank. Ethanol in itself is a very powerful solvent. When it goes to the bottom along with the water, it sits there & causes the damage explained earlier.

You folks out there can form your own opinions about Ethanol fuel. It does not matter to me at all. Just don't bitc* when you get slammed with a large bill at your local dealership or get told that you need to buy a new unit because the cost of replacement parts exceed the value of the unit!

In closing.........ALL OF THE ISSUES IN MY PREVIOUS POST ARE VALID! Job security again comes to my mind..............

Got to get to work & open up my shop. I have machines waiting out there with this very issue as I type this post. Believe it or not...I do not care............

Tcat

Twinhydro

My Feedback: (6)

Some good info here . I thought I would relate some findings with respect to the Zenoah 260 PUM as used in our Gas race boats . The stock as supplied 260 PUM has a sufficiently low compression ratio as to allow 87 or less octane E- 10 to be used with no apparent problems .Some guys do use Coleman fuel , not sure why as gasoline is cheaper and works great . We even raise our comp. ratios much higher and also increase exhaust and intake timing numbers , and port shape and size drastically to obtain the necessary 18,000 or more RPM necessary for competitive speeds . I have found that the E - 10 will shorten the life of the metering diaphragm drastically and they are replaced very often as they will hurt top end RPM and smooth throttle operation drastically when they get less flexible . Most racers use 8 - 10 oz per gallon of either mineral based or synthetic 2 stroke oil for the protection necessary at higher RPM . I'm sure you could use less in the airplanes due to less wide open throttle operation . I will be building a gas powered aircraft soon , for right now it's all Nitro for the planes and a mix of gas and nitro for my boats .

I always mix fresh fuel whenever possible and just dump the premix in my 21 Mako - Yamaha 200 , no worries with a big Racor water seperator in line .

pe reivers

The grant, and partial denial to the engines you mentioned probably is due to the need for re-jetting said vehicles if they are to use the E15 fuel.
E15 will lean out the settings if nothing is done. If re-jetted, all engines can use it, only the feds are still against it becauseGrowth energy had not supplied enough proof.

captaincrunch

I now use STA-BIL fuel additive made by Gold Eagle Co. for all my small engines. It keeps ethanol based fuels fresh for prolonged storage and prevents corrosion from moisture. Ethanol based fuel also cause fuel lines (especially the pickup line in the tank) to deteriorate and fall apart. It is supposed to prevent that from happening also. You can buy the big bottle (32 FL. OZ) for about ten bucks, and it treats up to 80 gallons of fuel. I live in Wisconsin and it's hard to find non-ethanol based fuel.