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zdz 40 RV carb

Old 10-14-2011, 11:22 AM
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ATVAlliance
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Default zdz 40 RV carb

I have a zdz 40RV. It has a WT 76Acarb on it now that I cant seem to get to run. Its not drawing fuel and I have put a diaphram rebuild kit in (all gaskets, diaphram and reed plate). Did not change the needle or seat as the only kit available didnt have those parts.

Anyway...after the rebuild...still the same issue soI thought i would just replace it. Ive read online that some were replacing the Bing carbs on these engines with WT 201...but like the 76, it seems to be discontinued.

So, whats everyone using on zdz 40 RV's these days that is availble?

Old 10-14-2011, 05:13 PM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

I had a freind at the feild with a similar problem. He went through the carb and nothing seamed to help. Turns out the clunk had come off in the fuel tank
Old 10-15-2011, 03:08 AM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

All the diaphragm carbs work the same. No fuel draw? Look at the tank, clunk and lines first. Then make sure the pump side of the carb is wet with fuel. Dry diaphragms don't seal well enough to pump fuel. You can squirt some WD40 into the fuel nipple to wet up the carb. Make sure the pulse hole on the carb is lined up correctly on the engine and the gasket seals well. If the pulse hole doesn't get a pulse from the engine there will be no fuel draw.
Old 10-15-2011, 06:44 AM
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peso
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

It can be a serious problem but have you tried this. Take the spark plug away. Now you can use a glow engine starter to turn it around. Most of the time  this solves the problem with dry carbs.
Old 10-15-2011, 06:46 AM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

This is a brand new build using an old motor (the motor is barely used just in storage for a year or so) so I dont think I have an issue with the tank or lines...but I will double check them just to be sure.

Since this was a motor that had sit on the shelf for a while is why I thought putting in a new diaphram would solve it.

I can squeeze the tank and force fuel into the carb and the engine will run long enough to burn that fuel out. I actually had it running when using an electric starter before the rebuild...but it wouldnt even get to half throttle before choking out. I thought that was a symptom on not enough fuel draw at higher RPMs. Again, another reason for a new diaphram.

But still...same issue with new rebuild. I dont have an electric starter with enough butt on it to start it(borrowed one at the field last week to start with). So by hand I cant keep it running.

Anyway...I still would be interested in knowing what carb I could buy to put on it as a direct bolt on. Because I dont have a test stand that this engine will mount to and its mounted to an Extra 300 that is a PITA to unhook the throttle and choke linkages to work on. So it may be worth 60 bucks just to buy a new carb and be done with it...IF its the carb. I'll double check the pulse holes to make sure I am getting a pulse thru it to the carb.

I did notice that the carb has a pulse hole...then there is a gasket (thin one) with a hole in it which matched up to a mylar looking spacer with a hole it it that has a routered groove/channel it it over to the other side of the spacer and a hole there too. Im pretty sure I have it together right but I will double check. Whats the deal with that routed channel on the spacer block. Looks like it goes to "nowhere"?

Thanks for you guys input.
Old 10-15-2011, 12:47 PM
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SRimer
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

I have that engine, and i must say it is an awesome engine, mine has the original Bing carb and in did the first start of the day is painful, but after that, the 5-5-1 method does work, for the first start, if you use an electric starter it will make a world difference, if you wish to hand flip; it will be more like 30-5-1, when i hand flip, i flip until the carb drip fuel then 5-1, since the airplane is sitting on an angel, the engine does not get folded.

the channel in the carb's block is to allow you to flip the carb 180deg, if there is no pulse holes on both sides of the carb.
WT 201 does work, and many 12.7-13.5mm can work.

I would stay with the same carb and invest electric stater, the white Sullivan starter with 5 cells lipo, will spin it very easy.
Old 10-15-2011, 01:53 PM
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Tired Old Man
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

Personally I would just get the check valve diaphragm wet with fuel. Do not get the pump diaphragm wet with gas. You traded an old problem to create the same problem again with dry parts.
Old 10-15-2011, 07:38 PM
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Rick Sowell
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

when you installed the throttle ball link that they come with. did you turn the throttle shaft 180 degrees around, if so it makes them hard to start and won't throttle at all. check the throttle butterfly, it needs to be showing the end of the screw on the butterfly plate, not the screw head, when looking into the carb.
Old 10-17-2011, 11:27 AM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb


ORIGINAL: SRimer

I have that engine, and i must say it is an awesome engine, mine has the original Bing carb and in did the first start of the day is painful, but after that, the 5-5-1 method does work, for the first start, if you use an electric starter it will make a world difference, if you wish to hand flip; it will be more like 30-5-1, when i hand flip, i flip until the carb drip fuel then 5-1, since the airplane is sitting on an angel, the engine does not get folded.

the channel in the carb's block is to allow you to flip the carb 180deg, if there is no pulse holes on both sides of the carb.
WT 201 does work, and many 12.7-13.5mm can work.

I would stay with the same carb and invest electric stater, the white Sullivan starter with 5 cells lipo, will spin it very easy.
Yeah...I have read about the 5:5:1 method and was trying that...but like you said...its more like 30:5:1 when only using your hand. I never really could get it going by hand though. But I did get it to run when using a starter. It was just erratic and I couldnt make it to half throttle before it would just die.

I found a brand NOS WT76A on eBay and bought it. Should be here today or tomorrow so I will try that brand new 76A on it before I troubleshoot this carb further. If it wont run with a brand spanking new carb I will have to start thinking bigger.



ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man

Personally I would just get the check valve diaphragm wet with fuel. Do not get the pump diaphragm wet with gas. You traded an old problem to create the same problem again with dry parts.
Not sure what you mean when you say that I "traded an old problem to create same problem again with dry parts" The only thing I did was pull the carb when I couldnt get the engine to start or run reliably and put in new gaskets, diaphram and reed valve(if that is what it is called on the fuel input side).

One thing I did/do notice after rebuilding is I can hear quite a bit of suction when the piston moves across TDC. So maybe the pulse hole was blocked before or spacer was installed wrong. I bought this engine used and never ran it. But I bought it from a LHS and they guaranteed that it was a good motor. Only thing is the guy that worked there when I bought it...is no longer there. So I thought I would try and get it going before I go back and try to argue the "warranty" part of the equation with the owner. Go figure, I could had bought a brand new chinese engine for less than what I paid for this used ZDZ. But, people were telling me that the ZDZ was soo much better than anything I could get from china...I thought I would take the chance.Now, Im not so sure that was the right thing to do because the two chinese engines I have bought brand new start easy and run fine.


ORIGINAL: Rick Sowell

when you installed the throttle ball link that they come with. did you turn the throttle shaft 180 degrees around, if so it makes them hard to start and won't throttle at all. check the throttle butterfly, it needs to be showing the end of the screw on the butterfly plate, not the screw head, when looking into the carb.
I didnt install anything.This engine was used and it already had everything. All I did was mount it to the firewall and make new throttle and choke linkages. The ball ends and throttle/choke assemblies were as they were the last time it ran...so I can only assume that they are done right as this engine came out of a flying model (big P51 to be exact).

But, I will take a closer look when I tear it back apart tomorrow or Wednesday(if you read my previous replies...I bought a brand new 76A I am gonna try. Got it for 20 bucks on ebay as NOS...soI thought I would take a chance on a 2nd carb. A rebuild kit is 12 bucks...so a few dollars more I got a brand new carb.
Old 10-17-2011, 07:06 PM
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Rick Sowell
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

If some one has taken the return spring off on the throttle lever it will turn around 180 degrees, and you can hook it up and it will rotate oposite from what it should, it leaves the air bleeds for the venturi in the throat of the carb open all the time and makes the throttle less effective and very hard starting. maybe Pat-T.O.M. will chime in and he can probably explain it better than I can. Rick
Old 10-18-2011, 03:33 AM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

The return spring is still there...just not connected.  But I do understand what you are explaining and will take a look at it when I get it back out of the airplane tomorrow.

Thanks again for the input and I will update this thread with my results.
Old 10-23-2011, 04:41 PM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

I had the exact same no fuel into the cylinder with my ZDZ 40 that you are having. I contacted Troy Built models they advised me to buy a WT201carb, Troy Built sells the carb and does some sort of mod on it, I don't know what they were evasive about that info, anyway 50.00 later and it seems to run fine, this was only a month ago, so you might want to contact them they should have the carb you need.


Old 11-13-2011, 01:37 PM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

Just wanted to update.  Replaced the carb with one from ebay (NOS).

Now it draws fuel fine...just need to tune it and run it a little bit.  Hopefully I'll get a flight in on this engine before we stop flying for winter.
Old 04-19-2012, 07:18 AM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb



Well I know it has been several months since I last posted, but winter hit and I put this plane away...just bringing it back out a week or two ago to get working on it again.  So here is the update.

As was stated by me last post...I bought a NOS (new old stock) Walbro WT 76a carb from ebay and installed it.  I thought that would fix the issue, which it did in a sense as I was able to start the engine now with the new carb.  However, it still has issues with being reliable.

I have gone back and forth with tuning the Hi/Lo needles and nothing seems to help.

I can set the Hi/Lo back to factory(appox 1.5 turns out on both) and get it started.  Let it warm up (minute or two) and adjust the Hi to around 3 turns out total and it runs great.  Transistion is great.  No four stroking or anything.  Very fast throttle response (as so Ive heard this to be the case with rotary valve engines) and has TONS of power.  Note...compression is good (not tested as I have no way to test the PSI in the "dome") but feels very nice and tight.

Anyway...after this engine runs for about 8 or 9 minutes...it starts to sag for 2 or 3 seconds and then dies.  Like its not getting any fuel.  Its almost like its a heat issue...but checking compression (by hand again mind you) as soon as it dies...it feels just as tight as it did when it started.  Plenty of compression IMO, but without testing it...who knows, right?

After this has happened, it wont restart reliably without going back through a cold start procedure...basically have to "choke on", flip it till it pops...then choke off 1/4 throttle and flip it and it will fire up, burble, sputter and die.  IF, I am quick enough on the choke switch during the "burble, spurting" it will run longer...but then "choke off" it will still die.

I havent waited long enough in the same day for everything to cool down to a "cold" condition and try again...but a couple days later I can start this whole procedure over again and it will run fine for the first 5-8 minutes and ...well rinse, repeat all of the symptoms after that.

This whole series of things is pointing to me that there is a problem that arrises after the engine gets nice and warmed up...or possibly a fuel supply issue.  Id rather think that its a heat related issue rather than a fuel line/tank issue because I would think that a fuel/tank/line issue would have the same problem ALL of the time.  But i dont know as much about gas engines as I probably should.

One thing that comes to mind is that with the original carb...i had it on and off at least 3 or 4 times.  And with the new carb Ive had it apart another 3 or 4 times (not the carb itself...but removed the carb from the engine).  So maybe after the engine gets up to normal operating temps...I am getting an air leak somewhere between the intake and the carb.  There is 3 spacers/gaskets and perhaps they need replaced?

I did talk with someone about this at TBM and he said it sounded like a compression issue.  I really dont think that it is after reading all over the net about it.  And like I said...this engine "feels" like it has great compression...cold OR hot.  So Im still thinking it is carb or spacer/gasket issue.  Unless there is something inside the engine that could cause this symptom once it gets up to operating temps.  I have not had the engine apart.  Only the spark plug out and the carb off.  And really I wouldnt know what I would be looking at even if I did take the engine apart.

While I dont have any pics of the engine or carb or spacer/gaskets...here is one I found on the net (i will take pics and post them if needed...its just I havent taken the engine off the airframe at this point again, but will if I need to.



Im not even sure if the above pic is a zdz40, but it looks the same.  And I only wanted to point out that my 40 has the slit shown in the pic to the left of the intake hole.  It also has the thick red gasket with the hole there (mine was plugged up initially and I cleared it...but then it wouldnt pump fuel so I plugged it back up) then next to that red gasket is a white spacer block with a U shaped groove milled into it (I take it this is this way so you can flip the carb 180 degrees and still carry the "pulse" to pump fuel) then a thin blue paper like gasket that goes between the white spacer and the carb.

I guess it would be good to just find all 3 of those gaskets/spacers and replace them.  Possibly even a brand new carb...id be willing to buy one again as this "new one" was old stock and could have been on a shelf for years...thus giving me this issue.  However, the guy I spoke to at TBM said that there was no carb that would work with my engine because of having to mill out something on the intake to line up the pulse?  I guess the 76a carb is discontinued and the pulse hole on the replacement carb wont line up.  I dont know...just what I was told.

So...any other input would be greatly appreciated.  Even info to someone I could call that knows these engines inside and out and could sell me what I need to get this thing going.

When this engine runs for the 8 or so minutes...it runs like gangbusters!  I can only imagine the power it will give to the Extra 300S it is installed in.  However, no way in Hadees will I put this plane in the air only to have it deadstick on me!

Thanks for all the help in advance.

Old 04-19-2012, 07:46 AM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

I just found this parts diagram on zdz's website.  In the diagram, it only shows a single gasket between the carb and manifold.

I wonder if what I have is "factory" or something someone made to invert the carb?  I dont think I can "flip" the carb in my application.  I should probably look at how the pulse lines up without the white spacer and thin blue gasket.  Only use the thicker red gasket with the hole in it.



Then again...I know that these exploded views may or may not be accurate as well.  As all spacers on my engine "appear" to be factory and not "home made".

Thanks again.
Old 04-19-2012, 09:52 AM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

I had a similar problem and it was with the spacer. The original spacer was about 3/32" thick and it was made from an aluminum sheet. I called Mike Dooley "RCShowcase" now maybe still working at TBM and he sent me an upgraded thicker approx. 3/16" thick aluminum spacer. It now runs fine. This was back in 2003. I just checked my next generation ZDZ 50 and it only has one 3/32" thick redish in color gasket between the carb and engine.

I'm wondering if it quits in the same spot on the fuel tank level? If it does... is it the tank or is your ignition module overheating and shutting down. What about the condition of the ignition battery? Is it old and/or undersized?

Gunny
Old 04-19-2012, 11:37 AM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb


ORIGINAL: gunny11

I had a similar problem and it was with the spacer. The original spacer was about 3/32" thick and it was made from an aluminum sheet. I called Mike Dooley "RCShowcase" now maybe still working at TBM and he sent me an upgraded thicker approx. 3/16" thick aluminum spacer. It now runs fine. This was back in 2003. I just checked my next generation ZDZ 50 and it only has one 3/32" thick redish in color gasket between the carb and engine.

I'm wondering if it quits in the same spot on the fuel tank level? If it does... is it the tank or is your ignition module overheating and shutting down. What about the condition of the ignition battery? Is it old and/or undersized?

Gunny
The guy I talked to at TBM (cant remember his name right off) kind of sounded stumped when I described the gasket/spacer setup on this ZDZ 40. So to avoid confusion here, I made a VERY crude drawing (im no MinnFlyer...R.I.P)



As my drawing shows...there are 3 pieces involved. I'll call the reddish one a gasket as it seems to be made from some type of pressed fiber composite material. Then there is the white spacer block...seems to be made of like a butchers block type of nylon, then the thin blue paper-like gasket (which is thin like a muffler gasket on a glo engine).

The reddish and blue gaskets have a hole through them for the pulse. The white spacer has 2 holes in it, one on each side of the port opening and then a "U-shapped" channel milled all the way around. This is so you can have the linkages at the top of the engine(head side=top) or the bottom and the pulse will carry thru the channel.

I havent looked at it long enough to divuldge which orientation requires the use of the channel...therefor eliminating the need for the white spacer. Im only assuming it does as this is the way it was configured when i got it. But I will double check.

Anyway...I havent changed the tank out...BUT this was a brand new tank and hardware when I put this thing together last fall/winter. And when I put it together I did pressure test the tank in water to make sure it wasnt leaking. Maybe it has developed a leak and I have all new hardware and spare tanks tahtI could easily put together another tank and try it just to rule the tank out.

I cant verify that it stops at the same fuel/tank level every time as i have never put the exact same amount of fuel in it at each attempt at getting it to run.

Also...I havent tried another ignition as I dont have a spare one. This is the only zdz I have. I do have 2 other gassers...one being a RCGF 65 in a Yak 54 and also a CRRCPro 26 in a 91" Cub. It wouldnt be worth it to me to tear these 2 planes that run fine and are flying to use their ignitions as a troubleshooting tool. Maybe I can talk to someone in the club that might have an ignition laying around that I could test out.

I know one thing for sure though. This is my first, and LASTused gas engine I will buy. Actually i would buy another used gas engine...but I would have to see it fly for a considerable amount of time and then remove it from the plane right then and there...THEN I might consider buying it. For what I have in this used ZDZ...I could have bought a brand new DLE. I know...apples and oranges. But Ive just about had it with this thing! LOL

Old 04-19-2012, 12:13 PM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

Sorry you are having problems with it. The carb bolts should be torked down to 8" oz. It's not much. (I use blue locktite). If the white spacer is cover compressed it could leak when warmed up. If you can, eliminate the white spacer and blue paper gasket. That's what is on my new ZDZ. Make sure the pulse holes line up.

Old 04-19-2012, 03:49 PM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

My friend has a ZDZ60 that was hard to start and unreliable when it did run. We found that the base gasket on the cylinder was leaking which caused problems with the carb pulse. Just something to check.
Old 04-19-2012, 07:27 PM
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Rick Sowell
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

here are some shots of a brand new ZDZ 40, vintage of about 2002, I don't think they have changed anything on these, both of my 80's are exactly the same. the spacers you have are NOT stock, it sounds like a fuel issue or overheating, are you running it in a cowled plane? if so take the cowl off and recheck.
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Old 04-20-2012, 04:12 AM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

Thanks to all that have replied thus far, especially Rick for posting the pics of a new engine. 

Hopefully I will find time this weekend to take the engine out and see if I can eliminate the white spacer block and thin blue gasket.  For some reason I think that I need it in order to have the carb in the orientation I need to connect my throttle/choke servo linkages.

This enging is in an Extra 300S (with a cowl...but Ive not been able to get it running yet so I havent even put the cowl on) and is mounted inverted.  So...that means I need the linkages oriented towards the top of the engine.  In the photos Rick posted...this is how his engine carb linkages are orientated...so hopefully I will be able to remove those two parts and reassemble and be done with this mess.

I know the repuation of these engines are pretty darn good.  Im just a little frustrated as I have limited time to "tinker" and it gets frustrating when everything you try, you end up at the same place makeing no progress.  And thats where I have been with this engine since last fall.

I'll be sure to snap some pics of the spacers/gaskets when i take it apart just to update this thread.  IF this, I'll call it a "carb reversal spacer" isnt a factory piece...I can see how it would be a very ingenius idea as the guy at TBM said that they used to offer the service of cutting the groove in the engine block to re-route the pulse for inverted carb.  So this piece allows it with no mods to the engine itself.  However, if it is only going to give problems...maybe its not so ingenious afterall.

I'll be sure to post updates to this thread soon as I have them.

Thanks again for everyones replies.
Old 04-20-2012, 11:19 AM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

Please keep us posted.

You could mount the engine on a test stand just so you can see it run without redoing any pushrod changes in the plane. Then work from there...
Old 04-23-2012, 05:45 AM
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Default RE: zdz 40 RV carb

Did not get to do any work on the zdz this weekend.  Will hopefully find time this week to do something with it and update the thread.

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