Condor060

My Feedback: (2)

I found some information about the FG 84/FA 450 I wanted to ask this thread about. A friend gave me a run down on this and I wanted to share his advice to see if the community might agree.

Both of these engines have one manufacturing defect and I will explain it to the best of my ability so please excuse any technical misquotes as I am in no way an expert (or even close) on this issue.

Apparently Saito designed a baffle into the intake on cylinders #2 and #3. This is a W shaped barrier that was not originally designed into the engine. It was an afterthought to protect hydro lock in the two bottom cylinders from fuel siphon.

It is also one of the reasons for the very heavy 20-1 fuel mixture. The problem with the baffle is you will never get the same fuel mixture between 2, 3, and #1. #1 cylinder will always run hotter and/or leaner.

By removing this barrier (along with plugging the crank case drain tube) you can cut your oil mix in half. You will now get an even distribution of oil/fuel to each cylinder. The problem is once you remove this baffle you also eliminate the pulse the engine produces to operate the fuel pump so an external fuel pump is required.

So ends the theory. I would really love your input on this. If this is a realistic method of cleaning up the fuel distribution to each cylinder and cutting oil mix in half it would really support a much easier and accurate needle setting, less plug fowling, and equal temps across the three cylinders.

Also, other than the $245 fuel pump offered at Vogelsang Aeroscale, are there any suggestions for another fuel pump out there.

Here is the link to the fuel pump. http://www.vogelsang-aeroscale.com/apspumps.html

Condor060

My Feedback: (2)

A lot has happened since I made this post fellas. I was introduced to Ray English this morning by Dymond Model Sports and spent the last two hours getting an education.

Ray spent a good portion of his life designing engines for Marlin Indy cars and has quite the reputation in his industry.

He is now 64 years old, an avid RC flyer, and now spends his retired time modifying a long list of RC aircraft engines. Not only is he a really nice guy but has a wealth of knowledge and experience he brings to the table.

You guys are right about the bearings. We can't lower oil mix as these bearings won't lubricate properly without the heavy mix.

Ray is not a fan of Saito engines but he does a few modifications where Saito is lacking. One of which is proper fuel distribution.

Removing the baffles isn't an option either as eventually you will get flooding of the lower cylinders so that option is mute.

He went through the engine manual PDF file with me (which I have attached) to help me understand how the Saito fuel delivery system works and his correction for the existing problem. Apparently proper fuel atomization and delivery is the correction needed.

He asked me to order two parts for his mod and have them sent directly to him. Once the mod is complete he will send them to me and all I have to do is install them.

Currently (to the best of my understanding) part number 32-3-2 is the fuel atomization plate which is to be removed. Part number 17 (cover) and 18 will be modified with his fuel delivery system which will properly atomize the fuel and provide better distribution to each cylinder.

He calls it a fuel atomizing box. I know you guys want a better account of how he does this and we are going to speak later on today. I will get you a much better account of how this is done and post it.

To be quite honest about it, I was going over so many different engine problems I have encountered over the years with him I just lost track of his full explanation.

He is an amazing person and has a lot of great fixes in his bag.

irocbsa

My Feedback: (12)

Very interesting topic. Please post what you learn.

Die horse

That is interesting. I was just watching a video yesterday of a really nice scale Cessna with a flat 6 cylinder 4t, supercharged. I believe it was built by some race car (Indy or F1?) engine guru who passed on and it ended up in some other talented guys hands who super charged it and did other mods. Put a price tag on that, and yikes.

When I read about the fuel delivery issue with this motor and other Saito problems, I question ever buying one. I really like some of their designs, but when you can get something cheaper, lighter, more powerful, and more reliable, its tough to justify.

SrTelemaster150

So, where do you get something "cheaper, lighter, more powerful and more reliable" that doesn't sound like a weed wacker?

Condor060

My Feedback: (2)

I am sending my parts to Ray for modification. What I am most interested to find out is what the change in cylinder temps is going to be. My understanding is with proper equal fuel delivery to the cylinders I should be able to verify the mod by cylinder #1 being closer to the operating temps of #2 and #3. I will certainly post a video of my examination, process of installation, and engine tuning. Currently I have a 20 degree variance at idle between #1 VS #2 and #3.

Thanks SrTelemaster for weighing in on Rays modification. Sadly I am not they guy to give the right explanation to this but I will as soon as I have the parts in my hand.

SrTelemaster150

I would like to see some PX of the plenum/tubes if Ray doesn't mind. Cash constraints might make for a delay in shipping my parts to Ray.

Condor060

My Feedback: (2)

THis is the FG 84 intake modification Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffUehgpp8Ug

Condor060

My Feedback: (2)

Flight Test of the FG 84 Intake Modification

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INCo...ature=youtu.be

marksp

My Feedback: (9)

I've chatted with Ray and shipped my new FG-33R3 for intake & bushing mod service! Thanks for the heads up!

klausm

Hello marksp, did you get your modified FG-33R3 back? How does it run? I am very interested in this topic as I just lost a plane powered by an FG-33R3 when the engine seized.

marksp

My Feedback: (9)

Yikes...sorry to hear this!

Yes, I received my engine back modified and run-in. Unfortunately, I have yet to fly it yet, as I'm waiting for the Keleo ring. Hope to get it up in a week or so.

My excitement for this engine has turned to anxiety after learning essentially everyone who has it, has had a poor experience. When Ray tore my engine down, he discovered that one of the cylinder/rod combo's had what looked like a manufacturing defect. The connecting rod had been drilled twice in one of the oil supply holes with the second hole at an ange. He felt would definitely compromise the rod.

Luckily, Ray has a great relationship with both Saito & Horizon and was able to get new parts.

Hope the warranty works in your favor.

BTW, what oil ratio were you running? Ray's guidance is to run 15:1cheers

Condor060

My Feedback: (2)

I have over 30 flights with the modifications now and I am still running 15:1 mix. She is a beast. I get 6250 RPM with a 22 X 12 three blade and 6300 with a 24 X 12 two blade. I am thinking about a 24 X 10 three blade to get the rpm down

SrTelemaster150

I hope Saito's somewhat ill-prepared foray into "gas" engines doesn't lead to their demise.

IMO, they took too many short cuts & tried to re-invent the wheel on their early single cylinder FG engines. Why they didn't just use existing CH Electronics (the format that RCXEL copied) & Walbro technology is a mystery.

CH-Ignitions did a lot of business converting those early FG engines to that very technology & improved reliability immensely.

It's like Saito hired engineers from my former employer, General Motors, for R&D.

Condor060

My Feedback: (2)

Yeah, This engine setup is just a really bad call on their part. The problem with China and Japan products is they will NEVER admit fault. No matter what the circumstances.

SrTelemaster150

Japan used to be very good about doing their homework before launching product. Seems they have taken a lead from American corporatism as of late. Profit 1st, quality maybe.

The prime directive for GM executives? Your primary responsibility is to avoid responsibility. One has to look no further than the current GM ignition switch debacle. 10 years of everyone looking the other way & not one person taking responsibility.

marksp

My Feedback: (9)

It appears that Ray is providing direct input to Saito on the FG-R design. What they do with it, and what they extend to the customers, if anything, is unclear. In my case, I paid 3X the price of a conventional engine, then again the price of another engine to fix something that has yet to fly. Not looking or expecting anything, but reliable, normal engine life would be great. A re-designed intake plenum, connecting rod bushings and an exhaust ring would be fantastic! As it is, this is my first and last Saito. Cheers

klausm

I was running a 20:1 ratio using Evolution oil, as per Saito manual. Now I will certainly go to a 15 : 1 mix. Prop was a Falcon 18 x 6 turning at 7800 rpm.

This engine has already been returned to Horizon once with a bad ignition module. At the time they replaced the ignition module and while testing found that cylinder #1 did not have enough compression and the crankshaft had too much play. All parts were replaced and repair was done under warranty.

I have other Saito engines which I have no issues with. This experience, however, has certainly put a damper on my enthusiasm for the Saito brand.

fdbzdfhhu

Thanks SrTelemaster for weighing in on Rays modification

salfly

Hello klausm, I too have had the dreaded engine seizure on TWO FG33R3 engines! Just so you know, I have purchased two of these engines and both have seized up and been returned. Unfortunately, I should have not got the second one until I had used the first for a couple of months. Visually and size wise its a perfect engine for the size of planes I use. One of the engines went back to Saito in Japan and has been repaired. The second was replaced by a new one which they broke-in with a gallon of mineral oil 20:1 gas fuel. I continued with the break-in for a further gallon of synthetic (Klotz Super Techniplate). Then
after the last tank on the plane, I stopped it after idle cool-down only to discover a half an hour later that the engine had seized! Still have not flown the engine in any plane as I do not have the confidence in it.

SrTelemaster150

IMO Saito has shot itself in the foot in their rush into the gas engine craze. Horizon has discontinued all of the big block glow multis that were excellent engines & responded very well to CDI conversion.

marksp

My Feedback: (9)

That is unfortunate to say the least!

I suspect the failures are related to the air/fuel ratio issue causing extreme lean condition in one or more cylinder(s), combined with the lack of conrod bushing design.

I never started mine until after Ray modified intake plenum and installed connecting rod bushing. So far, it's running fine with 15:1 ratio.

Glad I did it, but none of this should be required on a brand new "premium" engine.


Cheers

salfly

Thanks marksp. You made a wise choice and investment in having your engine modded. The engine is indeed a marvel when it is running properly and I am hooked like a rocky love-hate relationship. The money you spent is being repaid in savings on phone calls, shipping charges and frustration. I am now really fast at removing and re-installing the engine like a car racing trackside mechanic! I know that once this is all resolved, I will be very satisfied.
Cheers

SrTelemaster150

I would reduce the fuel/oil ratio to 15:1 too.

marksp

My Feedback: (9)

+1 for running 15:1 high quality synthetic oil with ethanol free gas.

BTW, the early reports on the new FG-60R3 may suggest that Saito has incorporated Ray's redesign inputs. That may explain the year delay in shipping? Fingers crossed as I'd like to see more delighted Saito gas radial owners. At the moment, we're a frustrated bunch to say the least.

Cheers