Indiomike

My Feedback: (5)

Okay, carb is now drawing fuel. av8tor's suggestion with the WD40 did the trick. However, now I find a problem with the high speed needle. Both H and L needles set to 2 turns out to get engine running. Engine starts and runs very steady at around 4500 rpm. But when I go to WOT, the high speed needle does not make much difference in rpm performance. I can turn the needle wide open or almost fully closed and it doesn't change the rpm. Also played with the L needle in and out and cannot find a combination of the needles that perform well. The max rpm I can get out of the engine is about 5000 rpm and it will idle down to about 1400 rpm and stay running.

I got the DLE30 carb and put it on. With it, I can get about 6700 rpm peak and a steady idle of 1500 rpm. For now I will stay with the DLE30 carb. The Walbro WA197A is going into a drawer. I still think the top end rpm is a bit low for this size engine. I may put on a smaller prop such as a 16x6 or 16x8 to see what I get for rpm. Maybe the Xoar 17x6 is just too much prop for it.

Mike

av8tor1977

My Feedback: (6)

Since it began life in another machine, and then has been flown too for god knows how long, I would suspect a worn ring. Most every used engine I tear apart has a ring gap that is too wide/out of spec. The ring gap spec for this size engine is .000" to .003". About the thickness of a piece of paper. Put an $11.00 Frank Bowman ring in it and I think you'll see a big difference. I put them in every engine I own. I have had engines that ran really good to begin with gain 800 rpms with a new ring.

The Zoar props do load an engine down more than most others.

AV8TOR

Indiomike

My Feedback: (5)

+1 on the Bowman rings. I've installed them on several engines. Since the engine make and model are unknown I would have to ship at least the cylinder head and piston to him as he would not know what size ring to provide. I'll first try a smaller loading prop and if that doesn't improve top end I may just send it to him for a ring.

As a side note, I quite enjoy tinkering with engines, carbs, and such. It is satisfying to fix something when it doesn't perform as it should. I also still enjoy building models from kits rather than assembling ARF's. I'm old school. I prefer gas or glow over electric. However, I will admit it is pretty much less costly now days to go with an ARF rather than the cost of building. Covering is getting darned expensive.

Mike

jymz

This looks like a FPE engine. ECHO based 21cc.
http://www.fpengines.com/html/13.htm

av8tor1977

My Feedback: (6)

I love all aspects of the hobby. I love tinkering with engines of all sorts. I love building airplanes too. I do have to admit the ARF movement has allowed me to own airplanes that I would never have had the time to build in reality, and that's cool. Electric is ok for a relaxing Park Flyer in my opinion, but I love the fire breathing, noise making gas and glow planes for anything bigger.

But you are right; buying and building a kit these days is actually more expensive in the long run than buying an ARF. Glue, wood, covering, hardware.... the prices are ridiculous!!

AV8TOR

Indiomike

My Feedback: (5)

jymz is right on. That is the exact engine. Thank you. If you click on his link and then enlarge the photo of the engine shown, you will see the letter E and then the number 13 on the lower front of the cylinder head. I'm not familiar with FPE engines but now there is no doubt as to the engine identity.

av8tor, you and I think just about exactly alike. I do enjoy flying models but I get as much enjoyment tinkering around with engines and getting the model in flying order.

Mike

Gizmo-RCU

My Feedback: (27)

Ditto.......BTW I have that same engine on a echo pole saw just didn't know it, hummmm?

av8tor1977

My Feedback: (6)

Echos are great little engines and I love them. Well, the big ones too....

Don't feel bad about that carb. You did good. I am somewhat of a carb expert on most all types of carbs and have rebuilt hundreds of carbs on everything from full size cars, boats, and airplanes down to Walbros, Zamas, and little glow carbs, and even I will come up against a carb every once in a great while that just won't seem to work right no matter what I do. When I finally get aggravated enough I just throw it in the scrap box to be used for spare parts.

AV8TOR

Indiomike

My Feedback: (5)

I noticed the specs for this engine on the link that jymz provided. It says the rpm range is 2000 to 7400 on a 16x8 prop. I was getting about 6700 rpm on a 17x6 so that isn't too out of line. I was going to try a 16x8 and found I didn't have one on hand. Placed another order to Tower. Will try the Xoar 16x8 in a few days when it arrives and report the rpm's.

Now I know the engine is 21cc. I'm sure the previous owner said he thought it was a 26cc engine but he couldn't identify it and it was his best guess. I must say this engine runs much quieter than any of my other gassers in that cc range. I'm looking forward to getting this plane operational.

Thanks to all.

Mike.

jymz

I have two of these, well one ECHO 21 that AV8TOR sold me and a FPE I got second hand. Both are converted to run alcohol. I get about 7500 - 7800 rpm with a APC 16x6 depending on the mix.

av8tor1977

My Feedback: (6)

It could be a 21cc, or it could be a 24cc. (23.6) The next size up, the 25cc has larger fins and the fins have holes in them to go down through with a long allen wrench to undo the cylinder bolts.

If you're interested, here's how you can measure it. Take the plug out, and carefully measure how far the piston travels from top dead center to bottom dead center. It's a little tricky with that angled plug hole, but it can be done. I use the back end of a vernier caliper to make the measurement.

Then take the muffler off, and put a pencil, or a dowel with a rounded off end into the exhaust port, straight over touching the other side of the cylinder. Now rotate the engine so that the piston comes up and pushes against the dowel or pencil, hard enough up against the top center of the exhaust port to make a mark on the wood. Now measure that distance on your dowel or pencil.

You now have the bore and stroke dimensions. Use this formula: (bore x bore) x stroke x .7854 to get your displacement, or engine size. If you measured in inches, your result will be in cubic inches. Divide that by .061 to arrive at cc's.

AV8TOR

Indiomike

My Feedback: (5)

Okay, the 16x8 props came in. This morning I ran the engine on a 16x8 Xoar. I was able to get 6650 rpm with the DLE30 carb and 6800 with the DLE20 carb. Still somewhat below the 7400 rpm listed in the prop range for this engine. I'm going to leave the DLE20 carb on it from now on.

So, again I'm taking av8tor's advice and sent an email to Frank Bowman to ask if he has a ring for a First Place Engine 1.3 It could be that this engine is just tired and maybe a new ring will perk it up a bit. If that doesn't work I'll try once more with a 16x6 prop and just live with whatever it gives.

kerwin50

evidently the venturi is too big on the DLE 30 carb. You may still want to try and fix the original carb.

Indiomike

My Feedback: (5)

Yes, I think you are right. The DLE20 carb would be more appropriate for a 21cc engine than the 30.

Indiomike

My Feedback: (5)

av8tor. For the fun of it I tried your formula for determining cc. The engine had a stroke of 1 inch and a bore of 1.25 inches. So it looks like a 21cc engine. My measurements were not precise but pretty close I think. So 1.25 x 1.25x 1x .7854 divided by .061 comes out just over 20cc I think unless my math is wrong.

Frank Bowman did not have a ring for that engine. I am sending it to him so he can make one and then add that engine to his list of known engines. Ring will be free. I just have to pay for shipping both directions which is no problem.

I'll report on any improvements when I get the engine back. May be a couple of weeks.

Mike

av8tor1977

My Feedback: (6)

He's probably got the rings for it, or at least he has the dimensions because he has made a bunch for that size Echo engine for me. But there are two different, (if not more) size rings that it could be, and he has had too much problems with rings not fitting to accept dimensions from people he doesn't know well. I just send him the dimensions for all kinds of engine applications and he makes them and sends them off. If they don't fit because one of my measurements might have been 1/2 thousandth off, I just "massage" them till they do.

But anyway, you'll like his ring(s) for sure. Usually I just use one of his rings in the top groove, and a stock ring in the second groove on two ring engines. The optimum for power and longevity would be two of his rings, but I don't think I would live long enough to wear out an engine on an airplane and I am not out for the very last ounce of power, so I just use one..... They still run great and far better than even a new stock ring.

I'm sure your dimensions are right. It is probably an FPE Echo engine and they used the 21cc engines. The 23.6cc engines are more powerful, but much harder to find, especially the mid to late '90's ones that were the best. (Yes, I have some hidden away for my personal use!!) (Besides the three I have on flying airplanes!)

AV8TOR

Indiomike

My Feedback: (5)

Well, I got the engine back from Bowman. It was a 2 ring engine so my total cost shipping both directions and ring cost was about $30.00.

The specs for this engine says it has a range of 2000 to 7400 rpm with a 17x6 prop. I fired it up with a 16x8 Xoar and after a lot of tweaking was only able to get 6600 rpm out of it. Maybe that will improve as the rings wear in a bit. I really didn't see any improvement with the Bowman rings but it was worth a shot. I haven't tried a 16x6 prop yet and will probably do so. I will fly the plane with the 16x8 and see how it performs and then try the 16x6 and live with whichever does better.

The engine just purrs at about the 4500 rpm range as if it is really happy there. I have the DLE20 carb on it as the Walbro WA197A was not doing well at all.

Anyway, I am just updating this thread with the latest information I have.

Mike