Saito FG-60R3
11-13-2019, 08:55 AM
#2551
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I guess I have to have 10 posts before I put pictures on? ? I had planned on doing the Morris Mini Motors for the timing but for now I think I'll just use the the stock pipes with heat concerns living in the US desert sw.
11-13-2019, 09:27 AM
#2552
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Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Yep, you need 10 posts to put up pics.
The timing mod is not a heat issue, it’s an ignition mod that could save your engine. If you’re in the US, and if it’s any easier, contact Adrien at CH-Ignitions. He’s a phone call away, and is more skilled in these matters than most. He offers a solution too!
The timing mod is not a heat issue, it’s an ignition mod that could save your engine. If you’re in the US, and if it’s any easier, contact Adrien at CH-Ignitions. He’s a phone call away, and is more skilled in these matters than most. He offers a solution too!
11-14-2019, 06:16 AM
#2553
My Feedback: (48)
Time for the "end of summer" maintenance report! I guess it's been about 20 15 minute flights or so since I've looked things over under the hood. Other than the #1 cylinder valve train was a little dry (no surprise there), and maybe a little carbon on #3 spark plug, everything looked really good. After at least two years fooling around with this thing even the fuel lines no sign of hardening or needing changing out. Maybe they like that 100LL I've been using VS pump gas? Weather has gone in the toilet around here lately, so I kinda doubt we'll be running it much until next year.
For Enjoy8viation.... I assume you're buying a new engine? If you are I'd check the ignition timing before buying anything as for all we know Saito has changed it to something more reasonable than the 45-50 BTDC that ours had. They've got a nasty habit of changing things (for the better?) without telling anyone. Example.... revised pistons.
For Enjoy8viation.... I assume you're buying a new engine? If you are I'd check the ignition timing before buying anything as for all we know Saito has changed it to something more reasonable than the 45-50 BTDC that ours had. They've got a nasty habit of changing things (for the better?) without telling anyone. Example.... revised pistons.
11-14-2019, 10:02 AM
#2554
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I’m wondering after all is said and done...
$1100 Fg60 R3
$ 100 ignition mod
$ 200 keleo ring
$ 100 intake mod
what did I leave out?
For a couple hundred more the UMS 7- 90cc has all that already, a walbro WT-621 carb with choke
Uses 40:1 fuel oil ratio after break-in
both Saito and UMS seem equaling challenging for customer svc for parts etc
Same size roughly
1.5 lbs more in weight but 1.4 moreHP(approx)
at this point I'm not sure which end of the Corsair I'm going to have to add lead to LOL
to me it seems the UMS is looking better just for the peace of mind that this engine was built
FOR gas and has the appropriate part thicknesses needed for the extra heat of gas(as opposed to glow)
Sound thinking?
of course I might have to use up the Christmas AND a birthday fund to get approval from the wife for it
$1100 Fg60 R3
$ 100 ignition mod
$ 200 keleo ring
$ 100 intake mod
what did I leave out?
For a couple hundred more the UMS 7- 90cc has all that already, a walbro WT-621 carb with choke
Uses 40:1 fuel oil ratio after break-in
both Saito and UMS seem equaling challenging for customer svc for parts etc
Same size roughly
1.5 lbs more in weight but 1.4 moreHP(approx)
at this point I'm not sure which end of the Corsair I'm going to have to add lead to LOL
to me it seems the UMS is looking better just for the peace of mind that this engine was built
FOR gas and has the appropriate part thicknesses needed for the extra heat of gas(as opposed to glow)
Sound thinking?
of course I might have to use up the Christmas AND a birthday fund to get approval from the wife for it
11-14-2019, 01:18 PM
#2556
My Feedback: (6)
I recommend that people who drool over my engine consider the UMS. I explain the journey that I took which was at least $300 more (If I recall) than what you posted.
Regardless this engine caused a lot of heartache in the beginning but has proved to be a fine engine after all the effort.
Sparky
Regardless this engine caused a lot of heartache in the beginning but has proved to be a fine engine after all the effort.
Sparky
11-14-2019, 02:42 PM
#2557
Don't the UMS engines have open rockers? That means you need to oil them at least every day of flying, If they are stuffed in a cowl that might be a little annoying, If they are open like on a Stearman then you can't go wrong for looks and sound
11-14-2019, 03:08 PM
#2558
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Open rockers
They are open rockers I was reading the instruction manual for the UMS. Definitely something to consider. I guess either way tho you have to go over the whole engine(Saito 60) to make sure all the bolts are tight first before flying so to add lube wouldn’t be much different.
11-14-2019, 08:07 PM
#2560
My Feedback: (6)
If you mean HH as Horizon Hobbies? From personal experience with HH they are unmatched by anyone, period. Cars, Appliances what ever you can mention they are simply the best company to deal with when I had questions or product support, while I've never heard any of them say it but often you here people who are frustrated when dealing with another company, "the customer is always right" HH personifies that level of commitment.
So is CH Ignition as good as HH? Not likely. My buddy bought one of their radials and is yet to install it and run it but I'm pretty sure if a problem arises Adrian will try to make it right. Remember he is a relatively small fish in the pond so he might not have the resources for an in depth parts inventory but I could be wrong.
The open rockers is the biggest detractor in my book but something I could learn to deal with if the other parts function as advertised.
Sparky
PS I just though of another company that has superb customer support,(from my experience) Apple....
So is CH Ignition as good as HH? Not likely. My buddy bought one of their radials and is yet to install it and run it but I'm pretty sure if a problem arises Adrian will try to make it right. Remember he is a relatively small fish in the pond so he might not have the resources for an in depth parts inventory but I could be wrong.
The open rockers is the biggest detractor in my book but something I could learn to deal with if the other parts function as advertised.
Sparky
PS I just though of another company that has superb customer support,(from my experience) Apple....
11-15-2019, 09:30 AM
#2561
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I have info from a very good source, that the NEW 5-cyl config UMS engines are designed from the ground up, as gas engines, I dont think the 7-cyls are, I think they are also converted glows. Although, anyone with more evidence could easily refute that, and with evidence, I would not argue to the contrary. I also know that a 7-cyl has a lot more parasitic drag, and really dont know if it would make the power they suggest it would, manufacturer specs are sometimes a little misleading.
Having spoken to someone involved in the new design, I hear the 5-cyl mods SOUND a lot nicer, so if thats your gig, then probably the best way to go. I am currently trying to shoehorn the 125 5-cyl into a TopRC FW190, which the FG-90 would run, but with no excess power.
When all is said and done, the FG60, FG90 and others are good little engines, but they need some modification. The mods can be done yourself, or close to it, with some tools and inginuity, but the CH, MMM route is fully reversible, so probably the best way to go.
The UMS DO have open rockers, but I ALWAYS try to build that maintenance is simplified by easy removal of the cowl. I never add weight to the cowl and try to get them to slide on/off as easy as possible, you just need to be creative...
Having spoken to someone involved in the new design, I hear the 5-cyl mods SOUND a lot nicer, so if thats your gig, then probably the best way to go. I am currently trying to shoehorn the 125 5-cyl into a TopRC FW190, which the FG-90 would run, but with no excess power.
When all is said and done, the FG60, FG90 and others are good little engines, but they need some modification. The mods can be done yourself, or close to it, with some tools and inginuity, but the CH, MMM route is fully reversible, so probably the best way to go.
The UMS DO have open rockers, but I ALWAYS try to build that maintenance is simplified by easy removal of the cowl. I never add weight to the cowl and try to get them to slide on/off as easy as possible, you just need to be creative...
11-16-2019, 05:14 AM
#2565
My Feedback: (6)
If the UMS has a Walbro carb it has a very effective fuel pump built in.
I don't understand why it needs all the extra equipment for another fuel pump.
I have a electric fuel pump in my Cessna Cardinal that only gets run on the before takeoff checklist to make sure it works then turned off.
None of the procedures calls for running the fuel pump inflight.
Sparky
I don't understand why it needs all the extra equipment for another fuel pump.
I have a electric fuel pump in my Cessna Cardinal that only gets run on the before takeoff checklist to make sure it works then turned off.
None of the procedures calls for running the fuel pump inflight.
Sparky
11-16-2019, 07:00 AM
#2567
A friend bought the 7-90 gas version of the UMS. Sounds good but the open rockers are a nuisance (cowl off to lubricate and an oily mess splattered on the firewall) and adjusting the carb in parallel to the pump is neither easy nor stable. Adding to that, in case the pump fails the motor will quit. Power is less than the respective Saito (FG-90). All in all, the Saitos are far more user friendly, maintenance free and less things to go wrong than the UMS offerings. Just set and forget - despite all the literature in this thread. Just my 0.05.
11-16-2019, 09:37 PM
#2568
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Well gentlemen, my boredom with this engine over recent times, came to a sharp end this weekend. No.2 let go on flight no 5 of the weekend. Its a very sobering experience given that just a few flights before, I had commented that the engine was running like a 'sewing machine'. Now its a 'sewing machine' with only 2 running cylinders...lol.
I still dont know what to make of it, but I am reluctant to condemn any of the mods that I have done to it, and considering that this is FrankenSaito, and has been subjected to a ton of abuse over the last year or so. It has one of the new modified piston and cylinder combo's after the last 'incident', its been running a 4-bladed prop, has been flowin in the VERY harsh temperatures of the Dubai summer and has been apart more times than it should have been. Remember I bought this from a guy that had previously had a cylinder failure, that was reparied. I dont believe there is ANYONE that has a an FG60 thats this 'used' before. The weather here has gotten a LOT more acceptable over the past 4 weeks, its gone from 47C to a balmy 27C in a very short time, and this was evident by the fact that the running temps have been 10-20Deg cooler than in the hot summer, and a dive at low revs will always drop the temps significantly in any given flight. Temps have been ideal over the last week or so, and we have done a lot of time on the engine.
I have not had time to do a post mortem yet, we just packed the plane away, and agreed that the airframe of the Seafury, with over 300 flights on it, needs to be replaced. I will pull the engine out this coming week, and am not expecting to find any evidence to suggest anything more than what we already know. In the engines defence, I DID NOT change tuning at all over the last few weeks, and with the temps cooling, I should really have richened it up to allow for the cooler, denser air. This was a mistake on my behalf, and whether it would have changed anything is debatable, but certainly a contender.
Just the same as the last time, the engine was running well, and as it came out of a high speed dive, there was a splutter, and it was on 2-cyl's, no catastrophic event, just kept running and low power glide to a landing...having a look through the cowl, the No.2 had cracks on the mounting 'ears' at the rear of the cylinder....same as most of the failures I have seen.
The question now is what am I going to do? Do i get MORE spares for this or not? With so much time and money invested in it, I do question whether its worth putting more money into it. I di say previously that it was time for this to go to the great big, mantlepiece as a conversation piece....but I also know, I have another FG60 of the older version, and even with the timing mods and experience I have had, I suspect it too, will one day, just let go.
The only way that I could prevent this happening, is to convert the engines to the newer cylinder/piston combo's, and maybe then I might get some useage out of them....
Disappointed is the way I feel right now, as I really would like to have the radial experience, without the Moki price (those things have their problems too) or the UMS experience, which with the pumps and rocker topics....doesnt leave much...
On the UMS topic, the exposed rockers is a bit of a hassle and 'mess', and the addition of a fuel pump does add cost and complexity, but I think might be warranted in the larger of the engines, but the ones under 100cc, would probably run well enough on the walbro pump. The 7-Cyl 90cc is never going to compete with a Saito FG90, with an additional 4-cylinders, there is a LOT of additional parasitic drag and it is never going to output the same amount of power. The 5 Cyl might be a bit closer in power, but still has 2 more compression strokes, parasitic drag and rotating mass, so is not in the same ball park as an FG90, but a little closer. Anyone looking for 'stunt' power by fitting a radial, is looking in the wrong place...there are 2-strokes that will do that.
hpergm, I would say that from all the hassle you went to in the beginning of this thread, with the running in, temperature measurement, tuning by temps, inverting during running in...these engines were VERY far from set and forget. Even Saito have changed the design of the piston/cyl so even they recognised that the engines were not up to snuff. Most of the people on here are not 'isolated' incidents, and I STILL believe, even AFTER my experience, that the ignition mod is a must, and the crankcase mod is a plus....
I have yet to see if anyone with the new engines has experienced the failure...
Now, I am off to cost up the new parts and see whether I move forward with this or not....
I still dont know what to make of it, but I am reluctant to condemn any of the mods that I have done to it, and considering that this is FrankenSaito, and has been subjected to a ton of abuse over the last year or so. It has one of the new modified piston and cylinder combo's after the last 'incident', its been running a 4-bladed prop, has been flowin in the VERY harsh temperatures of the Dubai summer and has been apart more times than it should have been. Remember I bought this from a guy that had previously had a cylinder failure, that was reparied. I dont believe there is ANYONE that has a an FG60 thats this 'used' before. The weather here has gotten a LOT more acceptable over the past 4 weeks, its gone from 47C to a balmy 27C in a very short time, and this was evident by the fact that the running temps have been 10-20Deg cooler than in the hot summer, and a dive at low revs will always drop the temps significantly in any given flight. Temps have been ideal over the last week or so, and we have done a lot of time on the engine.
I have not had time to do a post mortem yet, we just packed the plane away, and agreed that the airframe of the Seafury, with over 300 flights on it, needs to be replaced. I will pull the engine out this coming week, and am not expecting to find any evidence to suggest anything more than what we already know. In the engines defence, I DID NOT change tuning at all over the last few weeks, and with the temps cooling, I should really have richened it up to allow for the cooler, denser air. This was a mistake on my behalf, and whether it would have changed anything is debatable, but certainly a contender.
Just the same as the last time, the engine was running well, and as it came out of a high speed dive, there was a splutter, and it was on 2-cyl's, no catastrophic event, just kept running and low power glide to a landing...having a look through the cowl, the No.2 had cracks on the mounting 'ears' at the rear of the cylinder....same as most of the failures I have seen.
The question now is what am I going to do? Do i get MORE spares for this or not? With so much time and money invested in it, I do question whether its worth putting more money into it. I di say previously that it was time for this to go to the great big, mantlepiece as a conversation piece....but I also know, I have another FG60 of the older version, and even with the timing mods and experience I have had, I suspect it too, will one day, just let go.
The only way that I could prevent this happening, is to convert the engines to the newer cylinder/piston combo's, and maybe then I might get some useage out of them....
Disappointed is the way I feel right now, as I really would like to have the radial experience, without the Moki price (those things have their problems too) or the UMS experience, which with the pumps and rocker topics....doesnt leave much...
On the UMS topic, the exposed rockers is a bit of a hassle and 'mess', and the addition of a fuel pump does add cost and complexity, but I think might be warranted in the larger of the engines, but the ones under 100cc, would probably run well enough on the walbro pump. The 7-Cyl 90cc is never going to compete with a Saito FG90, with an additional 4-cylinders, there is a LOT of additional parasitic drag and it is never going to output the same amount of power. The 5 Cyl might be a bit closer in power, but still has 2 more compression strokes, parasitic drag and rotating mass, so is not in the same ball park as an FG90, but a little closer. Anyone looking for 'stunt' power by fitting a radial, is looking in the wrong place...there are 2-strokes that will do that.
hpergm, I would say that from all the hassle you went to in the beginning of this thread, with the running in, temperature measurement, tuning by temps, inverting during running in...these engines were VERY far from set and forget. Even Saito have changed the design of the piston/cyl so even they recognised that the engines were not up to snuff. Most of the people on here are not 'isolated' incidents, and I STILL believe, even AFTER my experience, that the ignition mod is a must, and the crankcase mod is a plus....
I have yet to see if anyone with the new engines has experienced the failure...
Now, I am off to cost up the new parts and see whether I move forward with this or not....
11-17-2019, 01:16 AM
#2569
Member
Hello Cathurga, can you confirm the broken #2 cylinder was a new design?
My FG60R3 is still on the shelf, waiting for a new airframe...
However, I made some additionnal tests on the bench, and find that the engine is very sensitive to the position of the fuel tank. Especially with respect to the height of the carburetor. The higher it is, the better it works ...
JM
My FG60R3 is still on the shelf, waiting for a new airframe...
However, I made some additionnal tests on the bench, and find that the engine is very sensitive to the position of the fuel tank. Especially with respect to the height of the carburetor. The higher it is, the better it works ...
JM
11-17-2019, 01:40 AM
#2570
Cathurga, what prop were you running? What was the max ground rpm out of it? What is your bolt tightening schedule (e.g every 3 flights?)
A cylinder break is either due to a high BMEP/low cyl. material strength combo (e.g. knocking or load up), bolt loosening or lean-out (seizing). Most modellers using this engine are experienced enough to avoid those conditions in an isolated manner but some times an intermediate combination of all of those may manifest itself, catch us off guard and push the engine off limits; a change from a hot to a cold day (lean out), old fuel (different burn timing), dirt on the carb or an air leak from an invisible tubing tear near a brass nipple, valve train wear (one cylinder underperforming, increasing vibration), different prop after a breakage or load due to air density or flying pattern, a loose bolt left unchecked. Been there done that.
What I am trying to say is that set and forget does not mean never check or routinely maintain. This is a complicated piece of miniature engineering and only if everything is right every time will it not fail. If you have subjected your engine through the use you describe, I would say you got a fair bit of service out of it. Fix it and continue running it.
A cylinder break is either due to a high BMEP/low cyl. material strength combo (e.g. knocking or load up), bolt loosening or lean-out (seizing). Most modellers using this engine are experienced enough to avoid those conditions in an isolated manner but some times an intermediate combination of all of those may manifest itself, catch us off guard and push the engine off limits; a change from a hot to a cold day (lean out), old fuel (different burn timing), dirt on the carb or an air leak from an invisible tubing tear near a brass nipple, valve train wear (one cylinder underperforming, increasing vibration), different prop after a breakage or load due to air density or flying pattern, a loose bolt left unchecked. Been there done that.
What I am trying to say is that set and forget does not mean never check or routinely maintain. This is a complicated piece of miniature engineering and only if everything is right every time will it not fail. If you have subjected your engine through the use you describe, I would say you got a fair bit of service out of it. Fix it and continue running it.
11-17-2019, 07:04 AM
#2572
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JieM, no, it was the old cylinder that broke, the new cylinder is still holding fast.
Hpergm, the prop was a varioprop 4-blader with around 18" diameter and 11" pitch. Static rpm was around 5400 that unloaded to around 7200 at max rpm, in a steep dive, but usually hovered around 6500-6700.
I agree that there are many factors at play, and in no particular order:
Bad design and mettalurgy, we know Saito have corrected this with new piston and cylinder designs (mostly to reduce compression and increase cylinder case mount points
Too lean. It hasnt been tuned since the warmer weather, and this is my bad...
Prop not really the best combo, but was tested before and has worked well.
Engine has been used as a test bed, and lots of changes have been made to it over the last 2 years
Timing is set correctly, but the engine has run for a long time prior to the change, so fatigue could have had a part.
Negative crankcase mod has worked well, and no leaks have been detected at all since the mods, but that means nothing, as a leaking gasket could have caused a lean state...or air getting in somewhere else.
A lot of carbon build up the last time I opened it, particularly combustion chamber, piston crown and exhaust valve, if this had continued to build up, compression would have increased slightly.
I am not condeming either the mods or bad engine design just yet, but one thing I AM aware of, is that this thing would never have lasted this long without the mods.
The plan was to open it this weekend, regardless of whether it had quit or not. Do inspections, carbin build up evaluation, general observations, then we were planning on checking valve lash, putting new plugs and flying as is for the rest of the season. We decided today that it might be worth repairing as long as we just have to put 2 new cylinders, rings, pistons and valves. Then we will have 3 of the new design piston/ring combo's, and send it up again. At the moment it looks like around US$300 all in, so maybe give it another thrash...! :-)
Hpergm, the prop was a varioprop 4-blader with around 18" diameter and 11" pitch. Static rpm was around 5400 that unloaded to around 7200 at max rpm, in a steep dive, but usually hovered around 6500-6700.
I agree that there are many factors at play, and in no particular order:
Bad design and mettalurgy, we know Saito have corrected this with new piston and cylinder designs (mostly to reduce compression and increase cylinder case mount points
Too lean. It hasnt been tuned since the warmer weather, and this is my bad...
Prop not really the best combo, but was tested before and has worked well.
Engine has been used as a test bed, and lots of changes have been made to it over the last 2 years
Timing is set correctly, but the engine has run for a long time prior to the change, so fatigue could have had a part.
Negative crankcase mod has worked well, and no leaks have been detected at all since the mods, but that means nothing, as a leaking gasket could have caused a lean state...or air getting in somewhere else.
A lot of carbon build up the last time I opened it, particularly combustion chamber, piston crown and exhaust valve, if this had continued to build up, compression would have increased slightly.
I am not condeming either the mods or bad engine design just yet, but one thing I AM aware of, is that this thing would never have lasted this long without the mods.
The plan was to open it this weekend, regardless of whether it had quit or not. Do inspections, carbin build up evaluation, general observations, then we were planning on checking valve lash, putting new plugs and flying as is for the rest of the season. We decided today that it might be worth repairing as long as we just have to put 2 new cylinders, rings, pistons and valves. Then we will have 3 of the new design piston/ring combo's, and send it up again. At the moment it looks like around US$300 all in, so maybe give it another thrash...! :-)
11-17-2019, 08:05 AM
#2573
My Feedback: (48)
Man.... just when you think you've got it all figured out it all goes to pot again! Sorry to hear of the busted cylinder there cathurga.
On another note... I've got a friend that playing around (?) with a Moki 215 that's given him nothing but trouble over the last two years. Bad ignitions, dropping cylinders, carb and fuel problems, etc. It's been shipped back and forth for warranty work several times. Over this last summer he finally got it running well, but admits that he's into it at over $4K and is pretty disappointed with the overall experience. Evidently the "high end" engines have problems too from what I see.
On another note... I've got a friend that playing around (?) with a Moki 215 that's given him nothing but trouble over the last two years. Bad ignitions, dropping cylinders, carb and fuel problems, etc. It's been shipped back and forth for warranty work several times. Over this last summer he finally got it running well, but admits that he's into it at over $4K and is pretty disappointed with the overall experience. Evidently the "high end" engines have problems too from what I see.
11-17-2019, 10:17 AM
#2574
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Jon, its no biggie mate, as you can see further back in the thread, the idea was that this engine was expendable to some degree, and I always knew it was a candidate for a failure. Actually, FrankenSaito has been a guinea pig, with little to no expectation on my behalf. Ideally, I would like to know long term, whether the changes to the cylinder and piston, has made this a stronger engine, and I would say that it has. There are no known failures of the new one, so I am buoyed by the fact that if I DO put this back together, with the newer parts, it might keep going! The letdown is that I have another, older FG60, that is not really a candidate for a long term power source....unless I make the changes to that too...
Yep, the more 'complex' engines have more to go wrong, require a bit more thought in design, and nobody can blame the vendors for trying...if they stopped, we would be all the poorer for it (we are poorer spending money on them, but at least we get some 'enjoyment' out of them).
With the thought of putting the UMS 125 in the FW190, I am well aware that these are not exactly 'tried & tested' engines, but they are from an old design that was reliable in glow format, but the conversion to gas has created some problems...even for the old hands like Moki...
Lets see...might hold a poll to see of you guys would like to see me rebuild it....and will approach Saito for sponsorship of the parts....Ya can wish in one hand, and crapp in the other, we all know which one will fill first! :-)
Hehe..
Yep, the more 'complex' engines have more to go wrong, require a bit more thought in design, and nobody can blame the vendors for trying...if they stopped, we would be all the poorer for it (we are poorer spending money on them, but at least we get some 'enjoyment' out of them).
With the thought of putting the UMS 125 in the FW190, I am well aware that these are not exactly 'tried & tested' engines, but they are from an old design that was reliable in glow format, but the conversion to gas has created some problems...even for the old hands like Moki...
Lets see...might hold a poll to see of you guys would like to see me rebuild it....and will approach Saito for sponsorship of the parts....Ya can wish in one hand, and crapp in the other, we all know which one will fill first! :-)
Hehe..
11-17-2019, 12:26 PM
#2575
My Feedback: (48)
Andy, I for one, and more than likely everyone else on this thread, appreciate your "research and development" work on the FrankenSaito. Quite frankly without your contributions here we'd probably still be at a loss to explain a lot of problems with this engine. The way I'm looking at it you've saved me a bunch of aggravation and money by breaking your engine when you think about it, plus... right now you can fly the hell out it without freezing your butt off! LOL
Bottom line is I want to see it repaired, updated, modified, whatever.... run it like you stole it and see if you can break it again!
Bottom line is I want to see it repaired, updated, modified, whatever.... run it like you stole it and see if you can break it again!