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Saito FG-60R3

Old 10-18-2021, 04:03 AM
  #2701  
DeeCee 57
 
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it's no "Ugly Stick" (didn't say it was nice ), but a "Ultra Stick" 30cc 81" from Hangar 9.

Flies good, butterfly (flaps down / ailerons up) and it can be landed at a walking pace. Aerobatic, even basic 3D capable (I do achieve some acceptable rolling harriers...). Barely able to hover, at the only way to exit the figure is to let it fall forward or the side, so not to be done on the deck... I'm using a 22x10 prop now, max static RPM5400, so overpropped, still good performance and low noise on this config.

Had to place my 3 LiFe batts in the tail in front of the vertical stab for C&G.

Last edited by DeeCee 57; 10-18-2021 at 04:15 AM.
Old 10-18-2021, 04:19 AM
  #2702  
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and lots of infos in the RCGroup thread titled Hangar 9 30cc Ultra Stick!
Old 10-22-2021, 10:43 AM
  #2703  
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What the old version of the piston and what is the new. Is de the one with the two indents the new one or the one witht the ring on top? And any tips for a easy diy piston stopper? Want to mount my moris mini ring tomorrow.
Old 10-27-2021, 06:53 AM
  #2704  
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Originally Posted by Didier View Post

Hello Guys.
I just pulled the trigger to order the new VQ Rare Bear.
On this airplane I want the FG-60. While google it, I found on the germane forum someone had received new pistons from Saito. It looks like they try to lower the compression ratio. Maybe this means Saito found out the engine detonated to much hence the breaking cylinders.
Which is the new design? The left or the right?
Old 10-27-2021, 09:30 AM
  #2705  
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Left is the new one. Piston stopper can be done carefully with a screw that is the same threads as a glow plug just be careful! It just needs to kiss the top of the piston. You could round off the end of the bolt so it is smooth. I have also used a wooden dowel that will thread into the hole. You aren't trying to leverage anything against the piston just find TDC.
Sparky
Old 10-27-2021, 10:09 AM
  #2706  
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Ok that's odd I have the first type 60r3 with the red tag instead of the black. But I have the new type pistons. Those should only be in the black tag engines. Mine was brand new. Now I have to ask myself if I remove the .5mm gasket en place the original .1mm back as I already have lower compression pistons. On the other hand if I use the .5 I am less prone to break one of the cilinders.what to do? And should I use blue locktite on.the screws? I see saito uses a white variant.
Originally Posted by elmshoot View Post
Left is the new one. Piston stopper can be done carefully with a screw that is the same threads as a glow plug just be careful! It just needs to kiss the top of the piston. You could round off the end of the bolt so it is smooth. I have also used a wooden dowel that will thread into the hole. You aren't trying to leverage anything against the piston just find TDC.
Sparky

Last edited by rwijnhov; 10-27-2021 at 10:13 AM.
Old 10-27-2021, 11:06 AM
  #2707  
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Originally Posted by rwijnhov View Post
Now I have to ask myself if I remove the .5mm gasket en place the original .1mm back as I already have lower compression pistons. On the other hand if I use the .5 I am less prone to break one of the cilinders.what to do? And should I use blue locktite on.the screws? I see saito uses a white variant.
That kind of difference (0,4 mm on a 20 cc cylindersize) results in noticably lower power output.
I could allready see (measure with digital tacho) a difference of 0,1 mm on a 30 cc cylinder.
Old 10-27-2021, 10:22 PM
  #2708  
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Ok I will stay with my 0.5 gasket.nas you see this engine also has the newer pistons but still break his cylinder. Hope to be able to run my engine this weekend..will report back on how much power I lost.
Originally Posted by MDavis28 View Post
Yes all stock. My pistons are dished. Sorta. Here is a pic. I purchased mine back in 2015 it arrived with a dead ignition system. Horizion replaced it and everything was fine until Joe Nall 2016. On Friday I had my first cracked cylinder. Unfortunately Horizion had already packed up and went home by the time I thought about showing them the engine there at the event. All in all Horizion has handled cylinder replacement like a champ. Im hoping my baffling keeps the new-er cylinders from cracking. Only time will tell. I thought I had seen on here that a new cylinder design had been made. I would love to get my hands on them. They had a thicker base that was filled in and looked more robust. Yup Id like to have them but I hope to not need them.
Old 10-29-2021, 07:09 AM
  #2709  
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It's alive
Midrange is way better with the JieM intake mod. I had to open up my high speed needle 10 clicks after de mod. Low speed needle just a little richer. Idle I expected more from. Since Moris shows 800rpm on his movie. But for me 1300 is lowest I can go stable. But I run 1:15 maybe 1:20 will clean that up. I run a 23*12 Engel super silence. Before the lowering compression I was at 6200 rpm after 6000 rpm so not a very big difference. All in all I am happy with it let's see if it won't break now
Old 10-29-2021, 11:37 AM
  #2710  
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Originally Posted by rwijnhov View Post
Before the lowering compression I was at 6200 rpm after 6000 rpm so not a very big difference.
10%... 0,4 hp down, from 4 hp down to 3,6
Old 10-29-2021, 11:38 AM
  #2711  
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How do you get 10 percent?
Old 10-29-2021, 11:57 AM
  #2712  
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How do you get 10 percent? Also a .5 gasket will compres to .4 . Also I measure 200 rpm difference on the ground.
Old 10-29-2021, 12:51 PM
  #2713  
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Originally Posted by rwijnhov View Post
How do you get 10 percent? Also a .5 gasket will compres to .4 . Also I measure 200 rpm difference on the ground.
Several ways to calculate that, but easiest is simply filling in the propsize and the two RPM's in any propcalculator. The exact values may differ a bit, but the 10% is "fixed" because it is in relation to the difference in RPM.

Power increase or decrease is always the third power of the ratio between highest and lowest RPM. So (6000/6200) x (6000/6200) x (6000/6200), which, if you calculate, is roughly 0,906 or 90,6%

Even if you lose only 200 RPM, that is more power than you think.

This is a common rule, even if you do not know how much horsepower you had before, you still know you lost 10%, because you lost roughly 3,3% RPM and 0.967 x 0.967 x 0.967 is approximately 0.9

EDIT: if you use a compressable gasket, that is not the best idea. Better to use a shim, or brass sheetmetal (latoenkoper). Compressable gaskets CAN cause loosening bolts or cylinders that are not sitting perfectly straight.

Last edited by 1967brutus; 10-29-2021 at 01:33 PM.
Old 10-29-2021, 06:09 PM
  #2714  
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Sometimes we over thing this......
Put in stock OEM gasket, get timing fixed, set proper valve adjustment and fly the airplane!
Sparky
Old 10-29-2021, 06:59 PM
  #2715  
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Stock OEM is always good...
Old 10-30-2021, 02:23 AM
  #2716  
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Originally Posted by elmshoot View Post
Sometimes we over thing this......
Put in stock OEM gasket, get timing fixed, set proper valve adjustment and fly the airplane!
Sparky
The problerm is that cyliders break with even de lower compression pistons. Hence the thicker gaskets. Hope to fly the plane tomorrow and see if power is still enough for my at6.
Old 10-31-2021, 04:25 AM
  #2717  
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Big success. Power was a bit less but still more then enough. Engine run flawless and perfect midrange performance now. Also temperatures way better. After landing I could touch all the cilinders. Before the mod the top cilinder wasn't touchable. I am happy.



Last edited by rwijnhov; 10-31-2021 at 05:00 AM.
Old 10-31-2021, 06:48 AM
  #2718  
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Define "touchable"... if they really are touchable, that is rather "cold" to my taste. I prefer my gasoline engines to run between 80 and 120 degrees C. Below that is too cold for my taste.
If I can permanently touch something, it is 55 deg or colder. Don't overcool your engines, lubrication is less good when too cold.

By the way: Nice video, great sound!

Last edited by 1967brutus; 10-31-2021 at 06:52 AM.
Old 10-31-2021, 06:56 AM
  #2719  
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You can touch them but not hold them so I guess 80-90.
Old 10-31-2021, 06:58 AM
  #2720  
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Originally Posted by rwijnhov View Post
You can touch them but not hold them so I guess 80-90.
Ah, OK... that was the description I was looking for. Not very exact, because it depends on the skin of your fingertips, but I would indeed estimate it to be in that range.
Old 10-31-2021, 07:06 AM
  #2721  
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Originally Posted by rwijnhov View Post
The problerm is that cyliders break with even de lower compression pistons. Hence the thicker gaskets. Hope to fly the plane tomorrow and see if power is still enough for my at6.
Not aware of cylinder breakage with methanol fueled Saito radials.Could be that the low compression pistons alone fail to get the job done (?) Years ago I saw two Saito 80s fracture cylinders. Both of them were early versions with high compression. Saito soon made the subsequent engines of lowered compression. I made base shims up and had no problems with the 80s that I ran.


Right now I am building a high compression Saito 65. It will use a cylinder from the R 325 radial along with the bubble top high compression piston from a Saito FA-65. The 325 of course is a dual plug cyl.
Will also be running dual plugged CDI. The methanol fuel will be zero nitromethane initially.





Old 10-31-2021, 07:43 AM
  #2722  
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This POV is for anyone who says: use the engine as it is out of the box.
What is the real life expectancy of this engine?
- 10 hours of operation? In this case you can actually use it as it is, it will perhaps be able to satisfy you without too much problem. Although I know some who have not made it.
- 100 hours of operation? Personally, I have not yet found a single engine that has reached this level. But by modifying the ignition point before TDC, by improving the lubrication of the lower engine, and by distributing the intake gases correctly in the 3 cylinders, there may be a chance to get there without breaking the cylinders, and without destroying the crankshaft.
- 1000 hours of operation? There is no need to dream, but that's what any lawn mower or chainsaw allows. For our little FG60R3, there are many parts that will have given up the ghost before, such as valves or valve seats, even if the cylinders, pistons and crankshaft are still alive.

It is true that they are beautiful mechanics, which produce a real beautiful melody, but we can not say that their design is perfect.



JM

Or the manufacturer may be counting on the life expectancy which may be short for our models ... and in this case we are no longer talking about broken cylinders, or destroyed crankshaft pins linked to operating hours.
Old 10-31-2021, 08:28 AM
  #2723  
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Originally Posted by 1967brutus View Post
Define "touchable"... if they really are touchable, that is rather "cold" to my taste. I prefer my gasoline engines to run between 80 and 120 degrees C. Below that is too cold for my taste.
If I can permanently touch something, it is 55 deg or colder. Don't overcool your engines, lubrication is less good when too cold.

By the way: Nice video, great sound!
An example of a graph with temperature and RPM




Temperature of cylinder 1 (hottest) measured during a cool flight on a modified engine. The sensor is glued to the fin under the exhaust outlet. The difference between the hottest and the coolest cylinder is less than 10 deg C. Air temp 10deg C
On an engine out of the box, the temperature can exceed 150deg C on cylinder 1 and the difference between the hottest and the coolest can exceed 40 deg.

JM
Old 10-31-2021, 08:55 AM
  #2724  
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Originally Posted by JieM View Post
An example of a graph with temperature and RPM




Temperature of cylinder 1 (hottest) measured during a cool flight on a modified engine. The sensor is glued to the fin under the exhaust outlet. The difference between the hottest and the coolest cylinder is less than 10 deg C. Air temp 10deg C
On an engine out of the box, the temperature can exceed 150deg C on cylinder 1 and the difference between the hottest and the coolest can exceed 40 deg.

JM
That looks pretty acceptable to me.
Old 10-31-2021, 09:03 AM
  #2725  
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This enigine runs a lot cooler after the intake mod. And the intake mod is the way to go on this engine. But I fully understand why Saito doesn't go this route. I takes only one of the gaskets or rubbers to leak a bit and the engine won't run ok beceause the mixture will go lean. So for saito the normal intake will give the the least service calls/

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