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Saito FG-60R3

Old 01-03-2023, 03:06 AM
  #2776  
mitchilito
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Originally Posted by hpergm
No, the engines are bone stock. I estimate about 10hrs on each (I do not keep a time log). But, I do re-oil the valve train and check/retighten the cylinders every 6 tanks (i.e. 1hr or approx every 2 flying days). A little bit of a chore...
Thanks for your input, Hector. Have you ever found loose cylinder screws? If so how many times?

I have noticed that the valve train seems to run VERY dry in these engines.
Old 01-05-2023, 01:51 AM
  #2777  
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I've got about 2 hours of run time on my FG60R3 so I figured it was time to check the valve clearance and cylinder bolts. The bolts were all tight but #3 had two that took just a tic more torque. The valves were actually in tolerance but I adjusted two just a little more to make them perfect.

One big reason I took off the valve covers was to see how dry they were running. I was surprised to see that #2 and 3 were nicely wet but #1 looked a little dry.



What a fine looking engine. Runs great too.
Old 01-09-2023, 04:52 PM
  #2778  
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Exactly what you said above.
Old 02-17-2023, 12:25 AM
  #2779  
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Finally maidened my UltraStick with the FG-60. What an awesome combination. I could chug around all day at 25% throttle just listening to the sound

This was the maiden flight:


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Old 02-17-2023, 05:55 AM
  #2780  
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Originally Posted by mitchilito
I've got about 2 hours of run time on my FG60R3 so I figured it was time to check the valve clearance and cylinder bolts. The bolts were all tight but #3 had two that took just a tic more torque. The valves were actually in tolerance but I adjusted two just a little more to make them perfect.

One big reason I took off the valve covers was to see how dry they were running. I was surprised to see that #2 and 3 were nicely wet but #1 looked a little dry.



What a fine looking engine. Runs great too.

Looks great! Will be curious how you like that engine in the Waco. Its been a few years since I have been on this post. Can you tell me what that nipple on the crankcase is for on your FG-60R3? Mine doesn't have that. Is that the stock prop hub too? I see you have temp sensors on your exhaust ports what system is that?
Old 02-19-2023, 02:46 AM
  #2781  
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Originally Posted by Timbers
Looks great! Will be curious how you like that engine in the Waco. It's been a few years since I have been on this post. Can you tell me what that nipple on the crankcase is for on your FG-60R3? Mine doesn't have that. Is that the stock prop hub too? I see you have temp sensors on your exhaust ports what system is that?
I LOVE this engine/aiplane combo. The 3D pilots out there would think it's "underpowered" but the power-to-weight ratio is certainly better than the full-scale Waco YMF5. Watch my video to see.

Scroll up a few messages to see the entire process of installing the temp sensors. The prop hub is from C&H Ignitions and corrects some serious faults with the stock one. As for the crankcase nipple, Saito put it there so you can squirt 20-30cc's of oil into the crankcase first flight of the day to make sure the internals start out well oiled. This is a step you don't want to forget on this engine.


Last edited by mitchilito; 02-19-2023 at 02:50 AM.
Old 02-19-2023, 09:53 AM
  #2782  
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Nice videos, guys! You both have them purring. In fact, it looks like it is "purrfect" for the Waco!
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Old 02-20-2023, 06:17 AM
  #2783  
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What is the suggested torque setting for the bolts? I haven't seen anything written and tell me which torque wrench you are using.
Or is this just guessing?
Sparky
Old 02-22-2023, 02:14 AM
  #2784  
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Originally Posted by elmshoot
What is the suggested torque setting for the bolts? I haven't seen anything written and tell me which torque wrench you are using.
Or is this just guessing?
Sparky
No torque wrench - just guessing. But it's an educated guess: I'm a machinist and an A&P mechanic
Old 02-22-2023, 07:01 AM
  #2785  
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Me too, that's why I ask. In general I find most model engine fasteners over torqued, thats why I use a torque wrench on parts I can get to.
Especially on new engines from the factory when doing a pre run cleaning of various places that might trap machining debris.
Sparky
Old 04-04-2023, 01:09 AM
  #2786  
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Default Advice regarding the Saito FG60R3

Hello.

I have read through all the posts and came to the following conclusion.

1 use MMM's timing ring set to 30 degrees btdc.
2 use MMM's backplate conversion with negative crank pressure.

I have ordered a Saito FG60R3 and now I am wondering, should I order MMM's timing ring and the backplate conversion?

With the backplate conversion, I just need to take the cover off my P47 Razorback to adjust the valve clearance and can rely on the engine getting the oil it needs to be properly lubricated.

It is an expensive modification and the money can be used for other things.
I have the money needed.
It may be worth making this investment.

I gratefully accept advice and opinions.

/ Ola Åberg


Old 04-04-2023, 01:20 AM
  #2787  
mitchilito
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Originally Posted by ola_a
Hello.

I have read through all the posts and came to the following conclusion.

1 use MMM's timing ring set to 30 degrees btdc.
2 use MMM's backplate conversion with negative crank pressure.

I have ordered a Saito FG60R3 and now I am wondering, should I order MMM's timing ring and the backplate conversion?

With the backplate conversion, I just need to take the cover off my P47 Razorback to adjust the valve clearance and can rely on the engine getting the oil it needs to be properly lubricated.

It is an expensive modification and the money can be used for other things.
I have the money needed.
It may be worth making this investment.

I gratefully accept advice and opinions.

/ Ola Åberg
I, personally, would not run this engine with the stock timing hub. As for the backplate mod - I have no experience with that. I think I will go research that now.
Old 04-04-2023, 01:59 AM
  #2788  
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Originally Posted by ola_a
Hello.

I have read through all the posts and came to the following conclusion.

1 use MMM's timing ring set to 30 degrees btdc.
2 use MMM's backplate conversion with negative crank pressure.

I have ordered a Saito FG60R3 and now I am wondering, should I order MMM's timing ring and the backplate conversion?

With the backplate conversion, I just need to take the cover off my P47 Razorback to adjust the valve clearance and can rely on the engine getting the oil it needs to be properly lubricated.

It is an expensive modification and the money can be used for other things.
I have the money needed.
It may be worth making this investment.

I gratefully accept advice and opinions.

/ Ola Åberg
Ola, make shure you get the latest production/ version of the engine, it should have improved cylinder base
and intake plenum design, along with the new main conrod. I don´t know how much better the new
manifold design is with regards to fuel distribution and temperature, so you might want to have the MMM version.
I have not been able to find pictures showing the internals of the MMM manifold, so it´s hard to say.
For shure you would also want a "corrected" ignition timing ring.
(If you find pictures of the MMM back cover internals then please post here.)
Old 04-04-2023, 04:02 AM
  #2789  
Timbers
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I know you live in Sweden but you may want to think about sending your engine to Ray English here in the states. Saito actually used his modifications in their design. He has a fairly quick turn around time (I got my engine back in about 2 weeks). I ran the MMM intake and timing hub on my Saito FG-19R3 and started burning up exhaust valve seats on my #1 cylinder. From what I have been told the MMM modifications are not completely correct. You may have luck with them and you may not. Ray is the only one I will trust from now on modifying these engines.

Your question about is it needed or not, well I've been flying an FG-60R3 with no mods at all and it works, but it will run better, tune better, and start better if you send it in to have it modified.




Originally Posted by ola_a
Hello.

I have read through all the posts and came to the following conclusion.

1 use MMM's timing ring set to 30 degrees btdc.
2 use MMM's backplate conversion with negative crank pressure.

I have ordered a Saito FG60R3 and now I am wondering, should I order MMM's timing ring and the backplate conversion?

With the backplate conversion, I just need to take the cover off my P47 Razorback to adjust the valve clearance and can rely on the engine getting the oil it needs to be properly lubricated.

It is an expensive modification and the money can be used for other things.
I have the money needed.
It may be worth making this investment.

I gratefully accept advice and opinions.

/ Ola Åberg
Old 04-04-2023, 01:16 PM
  #2790  
ola_a
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Default Advice regarding the Saito FG60R3

Thanks for your advice. What is clear is that I will use MMM's "corrected" ignition timing ring.

MMM writes on its website:

Saito 3 cylinder engines new intake features;

Regulates fuel and airflow to each cylinder evenly
All 3 cylinders will be running at the same temperature
No more flooding of the 2 bottom cylinders
No more overheat on the 1# cylinder
Oil feed straight in the crankcase better lubrications

"No more overheat on the 1# cylinder", perhaps it can be interpreted as there should be no problem with burnt valve seats on #1 cylinder?

Sending the engine to Ray English for modification will be both expensive and complicated. Shipping and customs here in Sweden have high fees and many forms to fill out.

"Oil feed straight in the crankcase better lubrications" this is what I want, a good lubrication of the engine which means that you can use less oil in the fuel.

All of the above should give the engine a longer life span.

Those of you who have the MMM's Intake Manifold Modification, what are your experiences?

/ Ola Åberg
Old 04-05-2023, 12:49 AM
  #2791  
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Originally Posted by ola_a
"Oil feed straight in the crankcase better lubrications" this is what I want, a good lubrication of the engine which means that you can use less oil in the fuel.
Aehm... no... it does NOT mean that...

Better lubrication just means better lubrication, it does NOT mean "you can use less oil".
That kind of reasoning is similar to "I wear my seatbelts, therefore I do not need to pay attention to other traffic while driving"...

The "better lubrication" has to do with oil better reaching the places that need lubrication, while the amount of oil in the fuel has to do with how many times per hour the oil in the engine will be refreshed. Two different things, both equally important but not the same.

Last edited by 1967brutus; 04-05-2023 at 12:56 AM.
Old 04-05-2023, 02:07 AM
  #2792  
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Originally Posted by 1967brutus
Aehm... no... it does NOT mean that...

Better lubrication just means better lubrication, it does NOT mean "you can use less oil".
That kind of reasoning is similar to "I wear my seatbelts, therefore I do not need to pay attention to other traffic while driving"...

The "better lubrication" has to do with oil better reaching the places that need lubrication, while the amount of oil in the fuel has to do with how many times per hour the oil in the engine will be refreshed. Two different things, both equally important but not the same.
I think for this motor I would have to agree with Brutus. It needs all the oil it can get.
Old 04-05-2023, 02:28 AM
  #2793  
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Originally Posted by mitchilito
I think for this motor I would have to agree with Brutus. It needs all the oil it can get.
TBH, I have never seen an engine that failed due to too much oil...

Needle bearing-conrods can have an issue with overlubrication, but other than that, there is no such thing as "too much oil"...
Old 04-05-2023, 07:24 AM
  #2794  
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Default Advice regarding the Saito FG60R3

Right now I'm just gathering information. Saito recommends 15 to 1 for break-in and 20 to 1 for normal use. In this forum I have read that MMM recommends 30 to 1 for normal use with their intake manifold modification conversion kit. Several have written that this is what they use after installing the intake manifold modification conversion kit from MMM.

If anyone has experience with MMM's intake manifold modification conversion kit for the Saito60R3, please let me know how it went and what to consider.

/ Ola
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Old 04-06-2023, 05:19 AM
  #2795  
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Originally Posted by 1967brutus
TBH, I have never seen an engine that failed due to too much oil...

Needle bearing-conrods can have an issue with overlubrication, but other than that, there is no such thing as "too much oil"...
I have seen too much oil kill an engine, ring failure in that case. Personal experience but not in a model application.
Miss calibrated dip stick, the company wouldn't stand behind their error.

I agree oil is cheap, engine failures are expensive not to mention the potential for the crash landing.....
Sparky
Old 04-06-2023, 09:22 AM
  #2796  
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Originally Posted by elmshoot
I have seen too much oil kill an engine, ring failure in that case. Personal experience but not in a model application.
Miss calibrated dip stick, the company wouldn't stand behind their error.

I agree oil is cheap, engine failures are expensive not to mention the potential for the crash landing.....
Sparky
Yes, you are right, I should have specified "mixture-lubricated".

If the discussion is about sump-lubricated engines, then sure, overfilling WILL kill an engine, and in lots of different possible ways. I have seen an engine lose oil pressure due to overfilling, fortunately the engine was safeguarded (autostop) or it would have destructed itself.
Overfilling can kill rings as you say, it can blow out shaftseals (not really engine damage, but a nasty overhaul nonetheless on a diesel larger than a decent-sized pickup truck). It can kill bearings in the valvetrain or even the intermediate gear breaking free of its brackets (Hydraulic forces of the oil enclosed between the gearteeth overloading the bearings), it can cause mainbearing faillure due to air in the oil (crankshaft whipping up the oil to a froth), and I am sure there are a few other ways I forgot.
Nowadays I work with what basically are just glorified truck engines (up to about 500 hp), Those come with factory calibrated dipsticks. But in the earlier days on the transatlantic trade, those engines came with unmarked dipsticks because the actual marks depended on how the engine was installed. We were told to, after installation (newbuilding), dump an X amount of oil in it, then mark the stick for that level as "min", add another Y amount of oil and mark that level as "max"...

But this is mixture lubricated engines, and there is is harder to kill an engine. Only two ways I know of is either a conrod with needlebearings giving in, or the engine getting overcompressed from the oil volume in the combustion chamber. Those needle bearings are rather sensitive, overcompressing it takes a huge crapload of oil in the fuel.

Last edited by 1967brutus; 04-06-2023 at 10:58 PM.
Old 04-08-2023, 08:02 AM
  #2797  
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[QUOTE=1967brutus;12767937]TBH, I have never seen an engine that failed due to too much oil...

Needle bearing-conrods can have an issue with overlubrication, but other than that, there is no such thing as "too much oil"...
Never seen an engine fail from too much oil. Sage wisdom in a pithy comment....
Write that on a wall somewhere.
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