Saito FG-60R3
09-04-2019, 05:02 AM
#2451
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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I have seen cases where people tighten the nuts off these things..literally, but they just need a 'cinch' up and they are ok. The threads on the adjusters are a little 'coarse' for my liking as it is sometimes difficult to get the gap exactly where you want it, but too fine and they will strip easily.
09-06-2019, 03:18 AM
#2452
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Doncasteryorkshire, UNITED KINGDOM
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Wise choice going with the timing mod, it makes a huge difference to the running of the engine. The crankcase mod is one of choice, as it is quite a 'drastic' change, but I use a similar thing on my two engines, and they are working well. I would suggest a higher oil content for breaking in, nothing wrong with 20:1 with the mods as a break in, once you have done a few tanks, drop the oil to 30:1.
While breaking in, its usually the No.2 cyl (or No.3, or both the lower ones) that doesnt fire up with its friends, but since you have done the crankcase mod, it will be any one of them. In essence, the very rich fuel will cause the mix to not burn properly, but as you start leaning it up, the odd cylinder will start acting as per normal.
I found it quite useful to use the stock pipes while breaking in, as I could see WHICH cylinder wasnt firing properly and this was before the crankcase mod had been used to effect. As many people have done, I physically 'rotated' the engine between tanks so that all the cylinders got a chance to run lean and fire properly.
You seem to be going down the right road but it might be a good idea to up the oil a little while running in... make sure all the parts get some 'slippery stuff'. Pretty much EVERYONE who got these engines noticed that there was VERY LITTLE lube in the crankcase when new, and most have squirted some oil in there, as well as in all the rocker covers....get that valve train all slippery.
22x10 is a good sized prop, but depending on what plane you are putting it in, you may find something with more pitch is also comfortable maybe a 22x12, 21x12. Some prefer the power and less speed of a 23x8....depends on airframe and flying style required.
Sparky has it nailed...valves just set with the tool they give you, I use a 0.05 feeler guage and that allows a 0.1mm guage to be tight..closer the better, as long as they are not holding the valve open!
My thanks for the replies, I have now had five quite long flights on the engine, still using the 30/1 oil. Each start from cold it is the top cylinder that takes a while to join in but now that I'm expecting it, it doesn't seem so worrying. I take your point about using a little extra oil in these early flights so will up the oil content to 20/1 for the rest of this gallon. I have kept a check on the amount of oil in the rockers, Theres evidence of oil there, less in the top cylinder so I have kept adding a littleat every check. I have no idea whats in the crankcase. (The drain is closed off by MMM)The valve gap seem quite loose so the next step will be to reset those now that is bedded in a little.
P.S. I have a spare Saito Collector ring (its the branded Saito one) not the best sound, but it does a good job. If youre interested let me know, I would part with it for a lot less than what its available for..
Yes I would be interested in the collector exhaust. I'm in the UK though, your in Dubai? I've sent you a PM
regards to all,
Stu K
While breaking in, its usually the No.2 cyl (or No.3, or both the lower ones) that doesnt fire up with its friends, but since you have done the crankcase mod, it will be any one of them. In essence, the very rich fuel will cause the mix to not burn properly, but as you start leaning it up, the odd cylinder will start acting as per normal.
I found it quite useful to use the stock pipes while breaking in, as I could see WHICH cylinder wasnt firing properly and this was before the crankcase mod had been used to effect. As many people have done, I physically 'rotated' the engine between tanks so that all the cylinders got a chance to run lean and fire properly.
You seem to be going down the right road but it might be a good idea to up the oil a little while running in... make sure all the parts get some 'slippery stuff'. Pretty much EVERYONE who got these engines noticed that there was VERY LITTLE lube in the crankcase when new, and most have squirted some oil in there, as well as in all the rocker covers....get that valve train all slippery.
22x10 is a good sized prop, but depending on what plane you are putting it in, you may find something with more pitch is also comfortable maybe a 22x12, 21x12. Some prefer the power and less speed of a 23x8....depends on airframe and flying style required.
Sparky has it nailed...valves just set with the tool they give you, I use a 0.05 feeler guage and that allows a 0.1mm guage to be tight..closer the better, as long as they are not holding the valve open!
My thanks for the replies, I have now had five quite long flights on the engine, still using the 30/1 oil. Each start from cold it is the top cylinder that takes a while to join in but now that I'm expecting it, it doesn't seem so worrying. I take your point about using a little extra oil in these early flights so will up the oil content to 20/1 for the rest of this gallon. I have kept a check on the amount of oil in the rockers, Theres evidence of oil there, less in the top cylinder so I have kept adding a littleat every check. I have no idea whats in the crankcase. (The drain is closed off by MMM)The valve gap seem quite loose so the next step will be to reset those now that is bedded in a little.
P.S. I have a spare Saito Collector ring (its the branded Saito one) not the best sound, but it does a good job. If youre interested let me know, I would part with it for a lot less than what its available for..
Yes I would be interested in the collector exhaust. I'm in the UK though, your in Dubai? I've sent you a PM
regards to all,
Stu K
09-09-2019, 07:07 AM
#2455
My Feedback: (6)
I am not so good at the cut and paste pictures but try this link for the Indiana Warbird Campaign...
IWC 2019 - Saturday
Also 87 157 212 216
For 87 and 88 It had just sprinkled and was ready to fly when it started to sprinkle so i was ready when the rain stopped and got the air to myself so i did a bunch of touch and goes.
If you want to post them here fine.
IWC 2019 - Saturday
Also 87 157 212 216
For 87 and 88 It had just sprinkled and was ready to fly when it started to sprinkle so i was ready when the rain stopped and got the air to myself so i did a bunch of touch and goes.
If you want to post them here fine.
09-09-2019, 08:54 PM
#2457
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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There he is!!!! (I meant the Hellcat BTW...lol)
Very cool even you guys put up. A nice variety of planes and nice weather for flying.
Good to know your engine is performing well. They are great when they are running reliably!
Regards, Andy
Very cool even you guys put up. A nice variety of planes and nice weather for flying.
Good to know your engine is performing well. They are great when they are running reliably!
Regards, Andy
09-10-2019, 02:49 AM
#2458
Senior Member
Hello guys,
I had yesterday for the second time an emergency landing (unfortunately damage this time) due to engine was stopping-running intermittently.
Luckily I have telemetry from my "Powerbox SparkSwitch pro" and you could clearly see it is ignition related due to the voltage of ignition battery dropped to 0V.
On ground could not reproduce the fault. When I disconnect the Saito ignition box from the SparkSwitch, the telemetry gives still the correct battery voltage,
With this in mind I suspected the fault was from battery -> cable -> SparkSwitch Pro.
All 3 items replaced so good to go. Engine runned flawless for 10 minutes on ground. Unfortunately after about 5 minutes of flight same problems as the first time it happened.
Now I suspect the Saito ignition box is intermittent short circuit, that results in 0V and 0A on the telemetry.
All cables are triple checked. Anyone any idea or experience with a faulty ignition box?
foto1: voltage ok, engine running normally
foto2: rpm ok, engine running normally
foto3; amps ok, engine running normally
foto4; voltage drops to 0, you hear the engine hesitate
foto5; rpm drop, you hear engine hesitate
foto6; 0 amps, you hear engine hesitate
situation1: batt, cable and SparkSwitch pro replaced
situation 2: disconnected ignition box from SparkSwitch and confirmed telemetry still gave voltage.
I had yesterday for the second time an emergency landing (unfortunately damage this time) due to engine was stopping-running intermittently.
Luckily I have telemetry from my "Powerbox SparkSwitch pro" and you could clearly see it is ignition related due to the voltage of ignition battery dropped to 0V.
On ground could not reproduce the fault. When I disconnect the Saito ignition box from the SparkSwitch, the telemetry gives still the correct battery voltage,
With this in mind I suspected the fault was from battery -> cable -> SparkSwitch Pro.
All 3 items replaced so good to go. Engine runned flawless for 10 minutes on ground. Unfortunately after about 5 minutes of flight same problems as the first time it happened.
Now I suspect the Saito ignition box is intermittent short circuit, that results in 0V and 0A on the telemetry.
All cables are triple checked. Anyone any idea or experience with a faulty ignition box?
foto1: voltage ok, engine running normally
foto2: rpm ok, engine running normally
foto3; amps ok, engine running normally
foto4; voltage drops to 0, you hear the engine hesitate
foto5; rpm drop, you hear engine hesitate
foto6; 0 amps, you hear engine hesitate
situation1: batt, cable and SparkSwitch pro replaced
situation 2: disconnected ignition box from SparkSwitch and confirmed telemetry still gave voltage.
09-10-2019, 09:40 AM
#2460
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Elmshoot....If you have 9y/o kids/grandchildren, you can ask them to show you how its done...LOL!..Us oldies have to learn, or forever remain 'technoplegic'
Didier, before you throw out the ignition, remove the Powerbox Spark Switch.....just run your ignition straight to a battery, or through a simple switch....if it keeps doing it, then its likely your ignition. If not, then its the Powerbox Spark..
Didier, before you throw out the ignition, remove the Powerbox Spark Switch.....just run your ignition straight to a battery, or through a simple switch....if it keeps doing it, then its likely your ignition. If not, then its the Powerbox Spark..
09-10-2019, 06:31 PM
#2461
My Feedback: (48)
I think that's good advise for Mr. Didier... I was looking at the radio readout he posted and I haven't the slightest idea what I'm looking at! (Way above my electronic paygrade?) You guys would probably GASP at my setup for the P47/FG60. Single battery, A123 2500, 2 outputs, one to a single switch to the receiver, the other lead straight to a RcXl Opti-Kill and to the ignition. You can't get much simpler than that!
I use the same setup in my 3D gassers and believe me, they use way more juice than this *****cat ever thought of using!
I use the same setup in my 3D gassers and believe me, they use way more juice than this *****cat ever thought of using!
09-12-2019, 01:57 AM
#2462
Senior Member
Yeah, I am going that option. Only the complaint is so intermittent now, I can run 3 times the engine with no hesitation. It is not a "hard fault".
09-12-2019, 02:12 AM
#2463
Senior Member
I think that's good advise for Mr. Didier... I was looking at the radio readout he posted and I haven't the slightest idea what I'm looking at! (Way above my electronic paygrade?) You guys would probably GASP at my setup for the P47/FG60. Single battery, A123 2500, 2 outputs, one to a single switch to the receiver, the other lead straight to a RcXl Opti-Kill and to the ignition. You can't get much simpler than that!
I use the same setup in my 3D gassers and believe me, they use way more juice than this *****cat ever thought of using!
I use the same setup in my 3D gassers and believe me, they use way more juice than this *****cat ever thought of using!
Only difference is telemetry from the switch. What you see in the pictures, is the ignition voltage dropping intermittently. This results in engine hesitation at the moment the voltage is dropping to zero.
In my point of few it has nothing to do with the "complexity" of the system. Actually the telemetry told me I have to find the problem in the ignition circuit and therefore not mechanical or fuel related.
As an aircraft maintenance engineer, this is the way we perform trouble shooting as well in the real world of aviation. Isolating the problem.
What makes it hard is that the problem is intermittent (due to vibration?) and I don't have spare parts to play with.
So the question to you guys still is: What is the "failure rate" of the ignition box of Saito and does anyone experienced the same issue?
09-12-2019, 06:07 AM
#2464
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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CDI ignitions MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure) is not as high is you think, and they do fail. I have seen many instances on forums over the years where they start ‘behaving badly’, giving intermittent faults like you describe. Some have even failed out the box. They are creating a high voltage spark discharge so they have a finite life. That said, I have never experienced it myself and probably will one day!
They don’t like excessive heat, nor do they tolerate vibrations for long...people that hard mount them in the cowl are more likely to have early failures.
i have read and heard of the powerbox spark systems being unreliable, and when I chose TechAero BEC as my ignition system I use on all my planes, I did so because I have never seen a failure.
remove the powerbox before anything else...(edit to clarify) while you test to find the problem, not saying it is the problem, but start there...
They don’t like excessive heat, nor do they tolerate vibrations for long...people that hard mount them in the cowl are more likely to have early failures.
i have read and heard of the powerbox spark systems being unreliable, and when I chose TechAero BEC as my ignition system I use on all my planes, I did so because I have never seen a failure.
remove the powerbox before anything else...(edit to clarify) while you test to find the problem, not saying it is the problem, but start there...
Last edited by cathurga; 09-12-2019 at 06:52 AM.
09-16-2019, 05:14 PM
#2465
Fly in at the Dickson Airport
hi guys. Last weekend a fly-in was held at the Dickson,TN airport. Had a good turn out but had a pretty hard crosswind. I got 2 flights in on my P-47/SaitoFG-60. First flight this summer and I didn’t have to touch the needles. My temps got up to 330 so I never got to full throttle. It was the hottest day I’ve flown it since I did the baffling. The plane performed great no hiccups other than the hard right it took at the end of the runway after a long roll out landing. 🤷🏻*♂️ 
Made in the shade.
Made in the shade.
09-17-2019, 01:07 PM
#2466
Hi everyone, first post on this forum, I have been following for 3 years when I bought a pair of the 60 r3 engines. Love the advice and expertise on here. I have put about 30 flights on each engine and finally mounted them on my Don Smith F7FTigercat, had them running great at 6100-6200 wide open but one engine was idling about 1000rpm faster than the other so I went about adjusting them and while I was doing this one engine slowly died and quit and is being a sob to get running again. Cylinders 1&2 are running good but #3 is not firing! Only seen 26degrees c on the exhaust.
Both engines have the Morris timing ring and intakes on them.
I have tried different plugs.
Checked the valves gap and at the factory recommend gap.
Running 32 to 1 redline oil, had removed intake, tons of oil in the crankcase.
Starting to wonder about ignition system now. Have a 7.4 lithium ion battery through a switch to ignition, both sides identical.Any thoughts.
Thanks,
Raptuck
Both engines have the Morris timing ring and intakes on them.
I have tried different plugs.
Checked the valves gap and at the factory recommend gap.
Running 32 to 1 redline oil, had removed intake, tons of oil in the crankcase.
Starting to wonder about ignition system now. Have a 7.4 lithium ion battery through a switch to ignition, both sides identical.Any thoughts.
Thanks,
Raptuck
09-17-2019, 04:49 PM
#2471
757jonp, I checked the spark and there was no spark for #3, pulled the ignition system out and inside the firewall, the #3 wire had a nick in it and the inside core wire had come out and is grounding against the shield. Not sure why cause it was running perfectly before and slowly lost rpm and then quit.
Thanks for the help. Muchly appreciated. I have a new ignition on order, hopefully gets here before the snow flys.
Thanks for the help. Muchly appreciated. I have a new ignition on order, hopefully gets here before the snow flys.
09-17-2019, 07:35 PM
#2474
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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As far as I know, the CH-Ignitions are not rcxel, but the Saito ones are for sure. You could buy any rcxel unit for 3-cyl and it would work the same.
you should be ashamed of yourself, coming in here, asking for advice and you haven’t even posted a video of a F7F Tigercat with twin Saito radial 60’s....!!!!! LoL
you should be ashamed of yourself, coming in here, asking for advice and you haven’t even posted a video of a F7F Tigercat with twin Saito radial 60’s....!!!!! LoL
09-17-2019, 07:45 PM
#2475
Hi cathurga, I tried to post a picture but they wouldn’t let me due to not enough posts, I do have a sort of video of them running but not sure how to get it on here. Look at my gallery and there is a picture of the cat!! Been a very informative forum to be following.
