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DLE 35ra timing 46??

Old 08-12-2016, 03:29 PM
  #26  
w8ye
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The original inductive fat ignition sensor on Saito four stroke gas engines were set on TDC and there was a internal advance function. But Saito abandoned that one and changed to a RCEXL type ignition. They redrilled the hub index pin hole in the crank so the sensor still mounted on the seam line along the bottom of the crankcase but was actually at 28 degrees.

Last edited by w8ye; 08-12-2016 at 04:40 PM.
Old 08-18-2016, 09:34 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by kmeyers View Post
Here I have to throw out one more info bit.

The hall switch is normally open. The magnet closes the circuit and the ignition timing is based off the moment the circuit re-opens.
O- Boy.Learn something new every day.There is no open and closed circuit in the operation of the Hall sensor.You can call it that if you want.Sounds good ,but not correct.
Static timing should still be set at 28 to 30 degrees BTDC.
BCCHI. Tired old CH guy.
Old 11-04-2016, 04:24 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by bcchi View Post
O- Boy.Learn something new every day.There is no open and closed circuit in the operation of the Hall sensor.You can call it that if you want.Sounds good ,but not correct.
Static timing should still be set at 28 to 30 degrees BTDC.
BCCHI. Tired old CH guy.
I think kmeyers is referring to the "electronic circuit" inside the Hall Sensor Integrated Circuit. It DOES have an on and off circuit. The Transistor acts as a switch and it is switched ON or OFF by the hall sensor and electronics, which provides a HI to Low voltage, or a Low to HI output signal to the ignition module. The Schmidt Trigger in the IC provides a fast voltage transition, or "edge" from Low to Hi or Hi to Low instead of the "slope" that would be provided without it. A sloping voltage would cause erratic timing. I don't think that would be noticeable in our engines, but in high speed digital applications, it could cause problems. The ignition module can be designed to use either the Hi to Low, or Low to Hi voltage transition as it's "trigger point" then add the appropriate time (advance or delay from TDC) to fire the spark plug.

A Hall Sensor block diagram is attached. The actual one used by DLE may be different, but the function would be the same.

The ignition module can also be designed to use both transitions to calculate the "dwell" time in order to prevent the engine from getting a spark unless the RPM is above a certain RPM. Some engines require this for safety purposes, like on lawn mowers, to inhibit spark below a set RPM, like 400.
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Old 11-04-2016, 04:30 PM
  #29  
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More ignition timing info based on my measurements of two versions with the timing set to 30 degrees.

Probably TMI for most people, but some may find it interesting.



Measurements were taken with a calibrated Tektronix 1Mhz O'Scope.
Attached Thumbnails Ignition Module Timing A0-1 and A0-2.pdf  

Last edited by Joystick TX; 11-04-2016 at 04:38 PM.
Old 11-05-2016, 06:00 AM
  #30  
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Here is a chart showing what the timing advance would be with the 30 and 46 degree settings.

I'm pretty sure the engine would not run well, if at all, if the advance was actually set to 46 degrees BTDC.
Attached Thumbnails DLE 35 with 46 deg timing.pdf  
Old 11-08-2016, 08:25 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Joystick TX View Post
I think kmeyers is referring to the "electronic circuit" inside the Hall Sensor Integrated Circuit. It DOES have an on and off circuit. The Transistor acts as a switch and it is switched ON or OFF by the hall sensor and electronics, which provides a HI to Low voltage, or a Low to HI output signal to the ignition module. The Schmidt Trigger in the IC provides a fast voltage transition, or "edge" from Low to Hi or Hi to Low instead of the "slope" that would be provided without it. A sloping voltage would cause erratic timing. I don't think that would be noticeable in our engines, but in high speed digital applications, it could cause problems. The ignition module can be designed to use either the Hi to Low, or Low to Hi voltage transition as it's "trigger point" then add the appropriate time (advance or delay from TDC) to fire the spark plug.

A Hall Sensor block diagram is attached. The actual one used by DLE may be different, but the function would be the same.

The ignition module can also be designed to use both transitions to calculate the "dwell" time in order to prevent the engine from getting a spark unless the RPM is above a certain RPM. Some engines require this for safety purposes, like on lawn mowers, to inhibit spark below a set RPM, like 400.
You are right on about the Hall sensor and are a much better writer then this farm boy.I am just tired of writing about the 46 degrees timing setting.We all no it is 28 to 30 degrees BTDC.
BCCHI Tired old CH guy.
Old 11-08-2016, 08:36 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by kmeyers View Post
Of course nothing is as it seems. The timing is calculated for low rpms and as read for high rpms at full advance. In between is also calculated.

So set the timing to full advance (28* Before TDC).

Maybe we should get BCCHI to chime in and set the record straight!
I give up on telling guys where the timing should be set.Any one with any smarts no's its 28 to 30 degrees BTDC.All of the DLE engines I have check in the last year or sol Have been very close 26 to 32 degrees BTDC.If they were 46 to 50 they would kick the snot out of you.
Tired old CH guy.
Old 11-08-2016, 08:45 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by BadAzzMaxx View Post
Good information, So what should the static timing be set to.

Milton
Milton quit teasing the people,you will get them more confused then they are.You no what the timing should be set at.I quit.
BCCHI.Still tired OLD CH guy.




Milton
Old 11-09-2016, 07:12 AM
  #34  
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This whole issue could be solved if the manufacturer would admit that their manuals, for both the DLE 30 and DLE 35, are wrong, at 46 degrees, and just list the correct timing, of 28 degrees, for their engines. An 18 degree difference is not insignificant.

It would also help if the repair shops, like Hobby Services, would admit that they are NOT setting the timing at 46 degrees.

I don't know how you can get 46 degrees BTDC on a DLE 35 without redrilling the sensor mounting holes, or re-keying the prop hub. It would be interesting to see a video of how they are getting that timing.

This issue has been going on for years and it is insane.
Old 11-09-2016, 09:07 AM
  #35  
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Turn the crank backwards and see what the number is. You'll be very close to 44 - 46 degrees when the ignition fires.

NO, thats not how to time an engine but it is one way they could justify the number. Frankly, I doubt that Hobby Services even check the timing. My guess is they just bolt the sensor on in a given position and let it go at that. As good as BAX is at giving out quality information, on this subject he has never given a clear description of how they time engines and just says they do it as advised by DLE.
Old 11-09-2016, 09:29 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Truckracer View Post
Turn the crank backwards and see what the number is. You'll be very close to 44 - 46 degrees when the ignition fires.

NO, thats not how to time an engine but it is one way they could justify the number. Frankly, I doubt that Hobby Services even check the timing. My guess is they just bolt the sensor on in a given position and let it go at that. As good as BAX is at giving out quality information, on this subject he has never given a clear description of how they time engines and just says they do it as advised by DLE.
Exactly right. We install the timing sensor where DLE says it goes. When you have a good sensor and a good ignition control unit, it all works out very nicely. We've been told that the exact position of the sensor is irrelevant when the electronics are calibrated to compensate for the sensor's location and then fire the engine at the appropriate time.
Old 11-09-2016, 11:35 AM
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Could you please tell us how you calibrate the electronics to compensative for the sensor location. ??????


Milton
Old 11-09-2016, 11:41 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Joystick TX View Post
This whole issue could be solved if the manufacturer would admit that their manuals, for both the DLE 30 and DLE 35, are wrong, at 46 degrees, and just list the correct timing, of 28 degrees, for their engines. An 18 degree difference is not insignificant.

It would also help if the repair shops, like Hobby Services, would admit that they are NOT setting the timing at 46 degrees.

I don't know how you can get 46 degrees BTDC on a DLE 35 without redrilling the sensor mounting holes, or re-keying the prop hub. It would be interesting to see a video of how they are getting that timing.

This issue has been going on for years and it is insane.
The Manual included with a new engine that goes through Hobby Services was written by someone at Hobby Services. Look and see whose name is on it? The address - Champlain, IL.
Old 11-09-2016, 03:01 PM
  #39  
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w8ye - I don't have access to a "new" manual from Hobby Services.

I bought a new engine on April 8, 2016 from my LHS.The manual that came with it was only 4 pages, and has Chinese and English text from Mile Hao Xiang Technology Co. It says nothing about ignition timing. The "online" manual from Hobby Services is the only "full" manual that I've ever seen. This is my third DLE 35ra.

I had a lot of problems with the ignition module on my first DLE 35 engine. I was using an IBEC and a 4.8 Vdc battery pack. My engine would cut out if I made a hard left or right aileron roll. That drove me crazy for quite a while. There was never a problem with that setup when I used a 30 cc engine A-01 module on the DLE 35.

I checked the ignition module with my timing wheel and mapped out the timing curve with an O'Scope and discovered the strange "advance, retard, advance" notch and thought that was due to a bad module.

I sent in all of the technical data to HS with charts on the curve difference between the A-01 and A-02 modules and explained that it was mechanically and electrically IMPOSSIBLE for me to get 46 Degrees BTDC. I sent in my "bad" module and they sent me a new one with no explanation concerning my timing diagram, or what the correct timing should be. I sent that one back in since it performed exactly the same as the first one. I still couldn't get the "correct" timing. They sent me module #3 as a replacement. I finally gave up trying to get 46 degrees and looked for other issues. That's when I discovered that the A-02 module would not work at the same "low voltage" as the A-01 module even though they both have the 4.8 Vdc marking. When they increased the upper voltage from 6 Vdc to 8.4 Vdc, they also raised the "low" voltage that the module would operate at. When I feel better, I'll measure that and post the results.

I'm disappointed that Hobby Services has not corrected their manuals, nor have they put the information in their "Tech Notes", and they have never provided any technical answers to my questions about the timing curve differences.
Old 11-09-2016, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BadAzzMaxx View Post
Could you please tell us how you calibrate the electronics to compensate for the sensor location. ??????


Milton
Exactly what I thought. Maybe they have a Cray computer embedded in each module. (sorry, I can't find the "sarcasm" emoticon.)

I do agree that if they have complete control over all their process and vendors, that they can use the "poke-a-yoke" assembly process, but it would be a good idea to have a method to double check once in awhile to make sure no problems have crept in.

If they can keep within +/- 2 degrees, it would be hard to notice a difference, but to be 18 degrees off is crazy.

Correct the manual!
Old 11-09-2016, 04:04 PM
  #41  
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Joystick, I feel your pain. Many of us have made posts in the various forums about the problem while trying our best to be "politically correct" with those postings. Many of us have the technical knowledge to test and verify what we are seeing with the various modules, sensors, etc. Here is a very brief summary of my findings in no particular order.

The A-02 ignition works OK if you keep the voltage above 6.0V and you have a good sensor. The strange advance curve is hardly noticed in operation because it happens at an RPM where the engine is not working hard. If anything it can interfere with an engine coming back to idle cleanly from full throttle. At most, you will notice a "vague" throttle response in this RPM range. Questionable RCexl sensors that may produce a double spark on the A-02 ignition may work just fine on an A-01 ignition. The RCame sensor available from Milton (RC Extreme Power) works flawlessly on both the A-01 and A-02 RCexl ignitions. Bad sensors can play havoc with the advance curve on the A-02 ignition causing hard starting (pop but no run), poor acceleration that acts like a carb problem, kickback, etc. Some of the early A-02 ignitions had a very weak spark that doesn't seem to work well with any engine. There are more issues but I'm becoming bored with writing about them.

Except for some of the early A-02 ignitions, I've found every questionable RCexl A-02 ignition to run acceptably well when used with the RCame sensor.

Anything here sound familiar to you?

Overall, in my opinion we're working with good products here that have had a few issues along the way. Problems seem to get corrected in later production runs. I still prefer the RCexl A-01 ignition over the A-02 but can get along with the A-02. The RCame ignition and sensor seems to perform better overall in most installations though the ignition has a bit quicker advance curve that can be a problem on small engines when trying to get the engine to settle down to a nice steady idle. The RCame ignition had some mechanical integrity problems in the past but this has been corrected in more recent production runs.

Not sure I helped but food for thought.
Old 11-09-2016, 04:40 PM
  #42  
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Truckracer - You're dead on with your post. I don't have any experience with the RCame sensor, but it is nice to know what to use if I have a failure.

A long time ago, I used to live near Tower Hobbies and they had an opening for what I thought would be my dream job, which was to build and test products that they sell. I was all excited until I found out that I would need to take a 75% pay cut and lose a lot of benefits. There are not really a lot of high profit items in the hobby industry, at least compared to the defense industry, so the salaries take a hit. So does R&D. It takes a long time for the hobby to get a good return on their investment.

Anyway, a lot of the users provide "free" engineering and it would be great if the manufacturers took advantage of it.
Old 11-09-2016, 05:19 PM
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An advantage of the AME sensor is its adjustability fore and aft in the holder along with the normal rotational adjustment. It also has a much larger "sweet spot" above the magnet, or the area where it will trigger as the magnet passes. The all molded RCexl sensors could sometimes work better if they could be adjusted fore and aft but this is not possible given their one piece design.
Old 11-09-2016, 08:25 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by joystick tx View Post
this whole issue could be solved if the manufacturer would admit that their manuals, for both the dle 30 and dle 35, are wrong, at 46 degrees, and just list the correct timing, of 28 degrees, for their engines. An 18 degree difference is not insignificant.

It would also help if the repair shops, like hobby services, would admit that they are not setting the timing at 46 degrees.

I don't know how you can get 46 degrees btdc on a dle 35 without redrilling the sensor mounting holes, or re-keying the prop hub. It would be interesting to see a video of how they are getting that timing.

This issue has been going on for years and it is insane.
. Bcchi
Old 11-09-2016, 08:43 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Truckracer View Post
Joystick, I feel your pain. Many of us have made posts in the various forums about the problem while trying our best to be "politically correct" with those postings. Many of us have the technical knowledge to test and verify what we are seeing with the various modules, sensors, etc. Here is a very brief summary of my findings in no particular order.

The A-02 ignition works OK if you keep the voltage above 6.0V and you have a good sensor. The strange advance curve is hardly noticed in operation because it happens at an RPM where the engine is not working hard. If anything it can interfere with an engine coming back to idle cleanly from full throttle. At most, you will notice a "vague" throttle response in this RPM range. Questionable RCexl sensors that may produce a double spark on the A-02 ignition may work just fine on an A-01 ignition. The RCame sensor available from Milton (RC Extreme Power) works flawlessly on both the A-01 and A-02 RCexl ignitions. Bad sensors can play havoc with the advance curve on the A-02 ignition causing hard starting (pop but no run), poor acceleration that acts like a carb problem, kickback, etc. Some of the early A-02 ignitions had a very weak spark that doesn't seem to work well with any engine. There are more issues but I'm becoming bored with writing about them.

Except for some of the early A-02 ignitions, I've found every questionable RCexl A-02 ignition to run acceptably well when used with the RCame sensor.

Anything here sound familiar to you?

Overall, in my opinion we're working with good products here that have had a few issues along the way. Problems seem to get corrected in later production runs. I still prefer the RCexl A-01 ignition over the A-02 but can get along with the A-02. The RCame ignition and sensor seems to perform better overall in most installations though the ignition has a bit quicker advance curve that can be a problem on small engines when trying to get the engine to settle down to a nice steady idle. The RCame ignition had some mechanical integrity problems in the past but this has been corrected in more recent production runs.

Not sure I helped but food for thought.
I have found out just about the same things on the RCEXL Ignitions.Thanks for your post. I am sick of this timing thing,plus old and crabby.The newer RCEXL Ignitions do not like 4.8 volts.I use 6.6 V life on all my ignitions now. I did not have good luck with the RCcame units,but they were the early ones that had parts fall off the circuit board.I am sure they are OK now.We have had beautiful flying weather for last several week ends.Supposed to be the same this coming week end. I am going to try out the RCGF 15. I thank God every day that I live in Wyoming.
BCCHI Tired old CH guy. I liked the story about the Magneto engine that Bax posted.Shows what he knows.
Old 11-12-2016, 10:40 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by BadAzzMaxx View Post
Could you please tell us how you calibrate the electronics to compensative for the sensor location. ??????


Milton
Quit it Max.That would be interesting.
BC
Old 11-25-2016, 10:05 AM
  #47  
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From an old post of mine: I was using an IBEC and a 4.8 Vdc battery pack. My engine would cut out if I made a hard left or right aileron roll. That drove me crazy for quite a while. There was never a problem with that setup when I used a 30 cc engine A-01 module on the DLE 35. That's when I discovered that the A-02 module would not work at the same "low voltage" as the A-01 module even though they both have the 4.8 Vdc marking. When they increased the upper voltage from 6 Vdc to 8.4 Vdc, they also raised the "low" voltage that the module would operate at. When I feel better, I'll measure that and post the results.

Anyway, I finally had a day when I felt better. I made some measurements to see what voltages the A-01 and A-02 modules would quit operating at.

The RCEXL A-01 module quits firing at 2.7 Volts. The RCEXL A-02 module, used for DLE 35ra, quits at 4.2 Volts.

While it is possible to use the RCEXL module with a 4.8 Volt Nicad, or NiMH battery pack, it will be a problem if an IBEC is used with it, since that will drop the voltage by at least 0.6 Volts. Most meters used to check the pack will show OK down to 4.6 Volts, that will not be good for the ignition since it will be at only 4 Volts, 4.6 minus the IBEC drop of 0.6, and the ignition module will not fire.

The bottom line is that the actual operating range for the A-01 is from 2.8 Volts to 6 Volts and the A-02 is from 4.3 Volts to 8.4 Volts. All this is based on a limited sample of ignitions, so there may be a couple of hundred millivolts error.
Old 11-26-2016, 08:40 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Joystick TX View Post
From an old post of mine: I was using an IBEC and a 4.8 Vdc battery pack. My engine would cut out if I made a hard left or right aileron roll. That drove me crazy for quite a while. There was never a problem with that setup when I used a 30 cc engine A-01 module on the DLE 35. That's when I discovered that the A-02 module would not work at the same "low voltage" as the A-01 module even though they both have the 4.8 Vdc marking. When they increased the upper voltage from 6 Vdc to 8.4 Vdc, they also raised the "low" voltage that the module would operate at. When I feel better, I'll measure that and post the results.

Anyway, I finally had a day when I felt better. I made some measurements to see what voltages the A-01 and A-02 modules would quit operating at.

The RCEXL A-01 module quits firing at 2.7 Volts. The RCEXL A-02 module, used for DLE 35ra, quits at 4.2 Volts.

While it is possible to use the RCEXL module with a 4.8 Volt Nicad, or NiMH battery pack, it will be a problem if an IBEC is used with it, since that will drop the voltage by at least 0.6 Volts. Most meters used to check the pack will show OK down to 4.6 Volts, that will not be good for the ignition since it will be at only 4 Volts, 4.6 minus the IBEC drop of 0.6, and the ignition module will not fire.

The bottom line is that the actual operating range for the A-01 is from 2.8 Volts to 6 Volts and the A-02 is from 4.3 Volts to 8.4 Volts. All this is based on a limited sample of ignitions, so there may be a couple of hundred millivolts error.
You are right.The new RCEXL Ignition does not like a 4.8 volt battery pack.The 6.6 Life is just right.I use the little life pack sold at value hobbies.
BCCHI Tired old CH guy
Old 11-05-2017, 06:02 AM
  #49  
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Just bought another DLE-35ra engine, my fifth.

Checked the timing before setting it, found it to be 35 Deg BTDC. I set it to 30 Deg BTDC. The shinny spot in photo shows were the initial setting was from the factory.

The engine starts easily by hand and runs like all the rest of them that I have, great.

Picture #2 shows the first engine run on my new 6' Coroplast Chuck Cunningham Biplane, top wing is not required for engine break in.
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Last edited by Joystick TX; 11-07-2017 at 12:02 PM.
Old 11-07-2017, 10:28 AM
  #50  
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Joystick
I was hoping you would edit this post.
Was 35, changed to 35. This just does not make sense to me.

See my signature, Oops

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