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A&M Sachs Ignition

Old 08-12-2020, 10:20 AM
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grampi50
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Default A&M Sachs Ignition

I just picked up a 3.2 (52.5cc) Sachs on ebay. I sent the seller a message prior to buying it, asking the guy if it ran and how many hours (approx.) it had. He said he had only run the engine a couple of times on the bench and he had never actually installed it on a plane. He said it was still not fully broken-in. It arrived with part of the ignition system missing. I'm not quite sure of it's proper nomenclature, but I would say it's the coil pack with the spark plug wire. The timing collar and corresponding wiring (with a 3 pin connector) is there, but the rest of it is missing. I just now sent the seller a message asking him how he ran the engine without this part of the ignition installed. As far as I know, it won't run without it. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that this is just some silly oversight on his part, like him forgetting to put it in the box. I'm really hoping he didn't knowingly sell me a now discontinued engine with part of its ignition missing. If this is the case, my options are to 1) return the engine, or 2) try to locate this part of the ignition. I would like to make this engine work if possible, even if I have to buy the missing part. The problem is, I have no way of knowing if these ignition parts will work on a widespread number of applications, or if this engine would require this part be made specifically for this engine, and/or made by A&M/Sachs. If it's the former, I'd probably want a refund. If it's the latter, and I could use a coil pack from another company that produces gas engines for RC planes, I would certainly be willing to do that. I had one of these engines almost 30 years ago and it always ran well, made plenty of power, and was easy starting. I also had a similar sized Quadra at the same time, that wasn't nearly as good of an engine the A&M was. Where's a good place to start?
Old 08-12-2020, 09:09 PM
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post a bunch of pictures of what you have
Old 08-13-2020, 07:27 AM
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First, I'd have to ask if you are still driving the same car from 30 years ago? Owning and operating an old RC gas engine is kinda similar and will require a bit of patience and understanding and hopefully not a complete rebuild if seals and such have issues. With that, it sounds like you are missing the complete ignition module and you only have the timing ring and sensor in place on the engine. Even if you had the old module, it would probably require replacement or at minimum service to make it work properly. Most old ignitions give up and quit working properly around 20 years old or so as the capacitors and other critical components age out.

Now some advice: I'm an old guy too and understand completely where you are coming from with your quest to return to the hobby. I sense you want to relive your past experiences in the hobby flying airplanes and equipment from that era which I also understand. But my advice is look forward also because many modern products and airframes are much more enjoyable to fly than much of what we flew 30 years ago. It might just be time to let go of the past and move forward into this century. While we don't have quite the airframe selection we once had and some of the common materials to build with are lacking or gone, there are still many choices for airframes and equipment that are more modern. You might even get with a club and pick up parts and pieces from crashed ARF planes and create your own Frankenplanes using parts from different planes to create your own unique airplane. Many of today's flyers either don't build at all or don't know how to repair damaged ARFs so most of their damaged planes just go in the trash. These parts can many times be repaired easily and sometimes many parts of the airframe are not damaged at all. Sometimes just a new fuselage will get a plane back in the air. With your building skills, you can easily create a new fuselage or whatever is needed to complete an airframe. Couple that with current generation engines and radio equipment and you could have a ball flying on a shoestring budget. Just a thought .......
Old 08-13-2020, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Truckracer View Post
First, I'd have to ask if you are still driving the same car from 30 years ago? Owning and operating an old RC gas engine is kinda similar and will require a bit of patience and understanding and hopefully not a complete rebuild if seals and such have issues. With that, it sounds like you are missing the complete ignition module and you only have the timing ring and sensor in place on the engine. Even if you had the old module, it would probably require replacement or at minimum service to make it work properly. Most old ignitions give up and quit working properly around 20 years old or so as the capacitors and other critical components age out.

Now some advice: I'm an old guy too and understand completely where you are coming from with your quest to return to the hobby. I sense you want to relive your past experiences in the hobby flying airplanes and equipment from that era which I also understand. But my advice is look forward also because many modern products and airframes are much more enjoyable to fly than much of what we flew 30 years ago. It might just be time to let go of the past and move forward into this century. While we don't have quite the airframe selection we once had and some of the common materials to build with are lacking or gone, there are still many choices for airframes and equipment that are more modern. You might even get with a club and pick up parts and pieces from crashed ARF planes and create your own Frankenplanes using parts from different planes to create your own unique airplane. Many of today's flyers either don't build at all or don't know how to repair damaged ARFs so most of their damaged planes just go in the trash. These parts can many times be repaired easily and sometimes many parts of the airframe are not damaged at all. Sometimes just a new fuselage will get a plane back in the air. With your building skills, you can easily create a new fuselage or whatever is needed to complete an airframe. Couple that with current generation engines and radio equipment and you could have a ball flying on a shoestring budget. Just a thought .......
This isn't about reliving the old days, it's about designing and building my own plane, spending less money on the materials required to make the plane, and using a proven, reliable, and powerful engine. This engine may be old, but it makes a respectable amount of power, even compared to today's engines. CH Ignitions makes a CDI ignition for this engine which I just ordered. The radio gear will be a Spektrum DX8 or DX9, and the servos will be from Servo City, so the radio gear will all be modern stuff. I would rather work with new materials than piece together old, broken ARF parts. Another reason I'm doing this is because it's been done and I KNOW these planes fly, and fly well.
Old 08-13-2020, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by grampi50 View Post
This isn't about reliving the old days, it's about designing and building my own plane, spending less money on the materials required to make the plane, and using a proven, reliable, and powerful engine. This engine may be old, but it makes a respectable amount of power, even compared to today's engines. CH Ignitions makes a CDI ignition for this engine which I just ordered. The radio gear will be a Spektrum DX8 or DX9, and the servos will be from Servo City, so the radio gear will all be modern stuff. I would rather work with new materials than piece together old, broken ARF parts. Another reason I'm doing this is because it's been done and I KNOW these planes fly, and fly well.
Enjoy as you move forward!

I own and use old engines from time to time so will once again give some advice should you care to listen. The crank seals (many times integral with the bearings) are prone to fail in old engines. If you have any strange issues getting an old engine to run right, you may want to pressure test the engine to test the seals. Bad seals cause all sorts of running problems, all bad.
Old 08-13-2020, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Truckracer View Post
Enjoy as you move forward!

I own and use old engines from time to time so will once again give some advice should you care to listen. The crank seals (many times integral with the bearings) are prone to fail in old engines. If you have any strange issues getting an old engine to run right, you may want to pressure test the engine to test the seals. Bad seals cause all sorts of running problems, all bad.
If any of the seals in this engine have gone bad, it would be due to the passage of time, not wear from running. The person I bought it from said it's only been run twice on the bench. He said it isn't even broken in yet...
Old 08-13-2020, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by grampi50 View Post
If any of the seals in this engine have gone bad, it would be due to the passage of time, not wear from running. The person I bought it from said it's only been run twice on the bench. He said it isn't even broken in yet...
That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Many times setting around is harder on an engine than using it from time to time. Several years ago I bought an almost new (in run time) Brison 2.4 that looked like a new engine. The seals on both of the crank bearings had turned to a substance that resembled a gummy bear out in the hot sun. Have seen the same condition on other engines, not all RC related.

Please don't be so defensive, we're all trying to help you here and on the other forums.
Old 08-14-2020, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Truckracer View Post
That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Many times setting around is harder on an engine than using it from time to time. Several years ago I bought an almost new (in run time) Brison 2.4 that looked like a new engine. The seals on both of the crank bearings had turned to a substance that resembled a gummy bear out in the hot sun. Have seen the same condition on other engines, not all RC related.

Please don't be so defensive, we're all trying to help you here and on the other forums.
Sorry, I didn't I realize I was being defensive, just stating a point...I appreciate the help, I need it!
Old 08-14-2020, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by grampi50 View Post
Sorry, I didn't I realize I was being defensive, just stating a point...I appreciate the help, I need it!
If you don't think you were being defensive, ok. I think "Truckracer" is a great poster full of great advice on this forum (some of the best and most useful).

As for taking advice, no pics and already purchased parts ( it's ok though because Adrian at C&H is a great guy too so you will be fine).

So what is next?



Old 08-14-2020, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kmeyers View Post
If you don't think you were being defensive, ok. I think "Truckracer" is a great poster full of great advice on this forum (some of the best and most useful).

As for taking advice, no pics and already purchased parts ( it's ok though because Adrian at C&H is a great guy too so you will be fine).

So what is next?
I apologized for sounding defensive, but you don't believe me? Now I'm defensive and it's warranted. I also think Truckracer is a great poster and I value his opinion, but your post is full of pokes and prods...
Old 08-14-2020, 04:25 PM
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Part of it is, grampi has posts on every RC media site, and there are pics elsewhere, so he might have many people advising him. He's getting solid advice though and learning whom to believe, it's just spread out between 3 sites is all.

I run older engines myself, and all of mine run great... although a bit newer then this Sachs. With Adrian's help though he'll get the ignition squared away and current I'm sure.

If the engine hasn't been ran in years, it could need a carb kit, which is no big deal.. The "sitting around" part that was mentioned earlier is hard on the diaphragms just like the seals, and makes them stiff and sticky. There's nothing unusual about it, but it happens. It's something you learn to watch for after buying a few used engines, and is totally fixable, and usually ends up a fresh engine.

A trip to the local mower shop and $10 will get a carb kit no doubt. They usually come back strong after a good carb kit install.

A new ignition, and a carb kit will have that thing starting easily, and purring away.

grampi, when you get that far, if you need help finding the correct carb kit, just post up man.

Last edited by DGrant; 08-14-2020 at 04:34 PM. Reason: added info
Old 08-14-2020, 07:23 PM
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I completely respect grampi and Im pretty sure I understand where he is coming from. I especially respect someone who is a builder in this ARF world. I think were all here to help him and look forward to hearing about his successes.

By the way grampi, if you want to say, how old are you are, Id be curious. Would help a bit understanding your perspective on the hobby. Im almost 72.

Last edited by Truckracer; 08-14-2020 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 08-15-2020, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by DGrant View Post
Part of it is, grampi has posts on every RC media site, and there are pics elsewhere, so he might have many people advising him. He's getting solid advice though and learning whom to believe, it's just spread out between 3 sites is all.

I run older engines myself, and all of mine run great... although a bit newer then this Sachs. With Adrian's help though he'll get the ignition squared away and current I'm sure.

If the engine hasn't been ran in years, it could need a carb kit, which is no big deal.. The "sitting around" part that was mentioned earlier is hard on the diaphragms just like the seals, and makes them stiff and sticky. There's nothing unusual about it, but it happens. It's something you learn to watch for after buying a few used engines, and is totally fixable, and usually ends up a fresh engine.

A trip to the local mower shop and $10 will get a carb kit no doubt. They usually come back strong after a good carb kit install.

A new ignition, and a carb kit will have that thing starting easily, and purring away.

grampi, when you get that far, if you need help finding the correct carb kit, just post up man.
Thanks!
Old 08-15-2020, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Truckracer View Post
I completely respect grampi and Im pretty sure I understand where he is coming from. I especially respect someone who is a builder in this ARF world. I think were all here to help him and look forward to hearing about his successes.

By the way grampi, if you want to say, how old are you are, Id be curious. Would help a bit understanding your perspective on the hobby. Im almost 72.
I'm 62 and recently retired...with some luck maybe I'll make it to your age...
Old 08-16-2020, 11:50 AM
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I talked to Adrian at CH Ignitions and he's going to replace the manual advance on my engine with the auto advance, and send me the new CDI ignition that goes with it. He said to use a 7.4v battery, but I don't know what mah battery pack to use. I'm looking for a decent amount of flight time (at least an hour between charges). Any idea what size pack I need? Thanks. Jim
Old 08-16-2020, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by grampi50 View Post
I talked to Adrian at CH Ignitions and he's going to replace the manual advance on my engine with the auto advance, and send me the new CDI ignition that goes with it. He said to use a 7.4v battery, but I don't know what mah battery pack to use. I'm looking for a decent amount of flight time (at least an hour between charges). Any idea what size pack I need? Thanks. Jim
Many people power the ignition with an Ignition Battery Eliminator Circuit that gets its power from the radio receiver. A common brand is the Tech Aero IBEC and they are available in two models, one for standard voltages and the other for high voltage. You can order the model that best fits the battery type you are using for your airborne supply. A major advantage of using the IBEC other than eliminating one battery and switch completely is the ability to kill the engine from the transmitter using one radio channel. These things work well, are extremely reliable and are very popular.

What batteries have you chosen for your airborne supply? LiFe and LiPo are the most popular these days with Nixx use becoming almost extinct. You will find strong support for going either way on the Lixx battery choices.
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Old 08-17-2020, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Truckracer View Post
Many people power the ignition with an Ignition Battery Eliminator Circuit that gets its power from the radio receiver. A common brand is the Tech Aero IBEC and they are available in two models, one for standard voltages and the other for high voltage. You can order the model that best fits the battery type you are using for your airborne supply. A major advantage of using the IBEC other than eliminating one battery and switch completely is the ability to kill the engine from the transmitter using one radio channel. These things work well, are extremely reliable and are very popular.

What batteries have you chosen for your airborne supply? LiFe and LiPo are the most popular these days with Nixx use becoming almost extinct. You will find strong support for going either way on the Lixx battery choices.
I haven't bought any flight batteries yet. What size would I need if I use one of the IBECs?
Old 08-17-2020, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by grampi50 View Post
I haven't bought any flight batteries yet. What size would I need if I use one of the IBECs?
Size depends on your airplane size, the servos, how many flights you expect between charging and your flying style. Will you be using redundant batteries or a single battery? 30 and under planes, I usually use a single battery and several 50 size planes I have use single batteries. Above that, dual batteries are the norm for most people. The beauty of modern batteries and chargers is the charger will tell you how much capacity you take out of the battery during use and how much the charger puts back into the battery to charge it. There is a weight penalty going to larger or more batteries but cost doesn't increase drastically with larger sizes. I prefer A123 LiFe batteries usually in the 2500 MaH size. These are a hard can type battery very similar to the Nixx batteries that were so common in the past. The pouch style batteries are also very common and available in a wide variety of sizes. I use several of these in the 2800 - 3500 MaH size range. All of these newer batteries are extremely reliable, I would venture to say much more reliable than Nixx ever were. LiFe batteries are also very safe in use and when charging. Regardless of which battery style you choose, the ignition will use very little power per flight. My guess in the size planes you're talking about, I doubt you will use 100 MaH of capacity per flight for ignition power.

LiPo batteries are also very common but I'll let someone else verse their advantages, disadvantages. Most people prefer to remove these from the airframe for charging and storage.

Excellent LiFe battery tutorials at NOBS batteries: http://www.hangtimes.com/nobsbatteries.html
Old 08-29-2020, 07:11 AM
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Hello!
It seems we have some seniors here so I would like to invite all those over 50 years of age to join us on the old timers thread in the clubhouse we have been enjoying one another for quite some time and share events from our past.

Join us!
Donnyman
Old 09-15-2020, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Truckracer View Post
Many people power the ignition with an Ignition Battery Eliminator Circuit that gets its power from the radio receiver. A common brand is the Tech Aero IBEC and they are available in two models, one for standard voltages and the other for high voltage. You can order the model that best fits the battery type you are using for your airborne supply. A major advantage of using the IBEC other than eliminating one battery and switch completely is the ability to kill the engine from the transmitter using one radio channel. These things work well, are extremely reliable and are very popular.

What batteries have you chosen for your airborne supply? LiFe and LiPo are the most popular these days with Nixx use becoming almost extinct. You will find strong support for going either way on the Lixx battery choices.
And then there are folks like me! I VERY STRONGLY SUGGEST AGAINST BEC for ignition systems! Had an ignition system short to ground (inside the box) and burn the wires all the way back THROUGH the switch to the battery pack. Melted the heat shrink on the battery pack. The symptoms were no spark and 0 volts measured at the field when the engine had run the day before and the batteries were charged. Took it home and discovered the connectors were heat deformed and I had to cut the switch line. When I did that the 2000mAH battery recovered to 4.4 volts. The heat damage from that short was extensive - obviously the ignition system was shot, the switch was shot, and that battery will never again be installed in a plane. With a BEC that would have been the RX battery showing 0 volts. . .


YMMV
Old 09-16-2020, 07:18 AM
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Did that problem happen while you were in the air?
Old 09-16-2020, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by kmeyers View Post
Did that problem happen while you were in the air?
Luckily no. It happened when I was getting ready to fly. The melted insulation and hot wires cut holes in the fuel lines so I am really luck there was not a fire at the field or in my trailer on the way home. UGH!

If YOU like gambling, use a BEC and your RX system - but don't be surprised if you get to find out how tasty that plane isn't.
Old 09-16-2020, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Branaum View Post
And then there are folks like me! I VERY STRONGLY SUGGEST AGAINST BEC for ignition systems! Had an ignition system short to ground (inside the box) and burn the wires all the way back THROUGH the switch to the battery pack. Melted the heat shrink on the battery pack. The symptoms were no spark and 0 volts measured at the field when the engine had run the day before and the batteries were charged. Took it home and discovered the connectors were heat deformed and I had to cut the switch line. When I did that the 2000mAH battery recovered to 4.4 volts. The heat damage from that short was extensive - obviously the ignition system was shot, the switch was shot, and that battery will never again be installed in a plane. With a BEC that would have been the RX battery showing 0 volts. . .


YMMV
So.... VERY STRONGLY SUGGEST AGAINST huh,,, haha.... I'm sure that will discourage people... not. You didn't describe what you were even using... other then an ignition system, and the ignition box shorted.

You are aware an IBEC goes between the ign box and Rx right?... and isolates the Rx from the ignition box ... thereby no switch.

So what's more likely to short out... an ignition box?, or a switch? .. or a battery?... Did the power go upstream, downstream, or every which way?

Something obviously shorted on your plane, and I'm sure glad damage wasn't worse. I hope it never happens again.
What you're describing though could have been a battery shorting, a switch shorting, or anything that generated heat to fry the wires. I've had ignition boxes just die, but have never heard of one shorting out. I'm not sold on your strong suggestion though.

If you believe that strongly though, yeah it's best you don't use an IBEC. To anyone else interested, there's many of us using them every day. I did get a chuckle though, thanks.

Last edited by DGrant; 09-16-2020 at 11:30 AM.
Old 09-16-2020, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by DGrant View Post
So.... VERY STRONGLY SUGGEST AGAINST huh,,, haha.... I'm sure that will discourage people... not. You didn't describe what you were even using... other then an ignition system, and the ignition box shorted.

You are aware an IBEC goes between the ign box and Rx right?... and isolates the Rx from the ignition box ... thereby no switch.

So what's more likely to short out... an ignition box?, or a switch? .. or a battery?... Did the power go upstream, downstream, or every which way?

Something obviously shorted on your plane, and I'm sure glad damage wasn't worse. I hope it never happens again.
What you're describing though could have been a battery shorting, a switch shorting, or anything that generated heat to fry the wires. I've had ignition boxes just die, but have never heard of one shorting out. I'm not sold on your strong suggestion though.

If you believe that strongly though, yeah it's best you don't use an IBEC. To anyone else interested, there's many of us using them every day. I did get a chuckle though, thanks.
Mr. Grant, you are welcome to call me a liar until the cows come home.

I clearly stated that the short occurred INSIDE the ignition system and did damage all the way back through the switch to the battery pack, which I now use in building and setting up aircraft. So that should answer your ad hominim question. You are invited to use an IBEC and MAYBE you will never ever have any problem with it, however I will defer that choice to those so very much better than the average modeler.




Old 09-16-2020, 01:36 PM
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100's of flights with IBEC's and no issue, they are pretty much the standard for giant scale gas engines these days.

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