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Old 06-20-2024, 04:48 AM
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Here is the fuel pump setup. I set the regulator for 18" up the fuel line gauge. This is for 9" from tank to carb and an additional 6" when installed in the plane.

Old 06-20-2024, 05:19 AM
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Hello Robert. What fuel pump are you have? Link?
I need to install one in the Saito radial as it has the same fuel starvation problem at higher RPM's.

Thanks - J Tab
BTW - I have the APS Emcotec in my 2 Moki's but surely something is out there that will work just as well at a lower cost.
Old 06-20-2024, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Jaketab
Hello Robert. What fuel pump are you have? Link?
I need to install one in the Saito radial as it has the same fuel starvation problem at higher RPM's.

Thanks - J Tab
BTW - I have the APS Emcotec in my 2 Moki's but surely something is out there that will work just as well at a lower cost.
https://micropumps.co.uk/product/m400k-v/
Old 06-20-2024, 05:23 AM
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Old 06-20-2024, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Robert Dochterman
Yes! Those are the exact same ones I ordered from Amazon now. They are supposed to arrive here in my mailbox this coming Sunday. We'll see............ I am anxious to get them set up on my UMS engine to see what the individual cylinder temps turn out to be. Thanks for making me aware of these. I think they will be a big help.
Old 06-20-2024, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jaketab
Hello Robert. What fuel pump are you have? Link?
I need to install one in the Saito radial as it has the same fuel starvation problem at higher RPM's.

Thanks - J Tab
BTW - I have the APS Emcotec in my 2 Moki's but surely something is out there that will work just as well at a lower cost.
I have a Saito 60cc R3 engine that I am trying to get running. I purchased it from Morris Mini Motors over in the UK and he made a YouTube video showing him running this very same engine with an installed Walbro carburetor that I ordered for it and it looked like it was a piece of cake to get started and run. However, I can't even get a pop out of it yet. I don't have a large enough adapter for my electric starter to fit around the engine's spinner to be able to use a starter. I am waiting for an adapter to come in the mail. The engine has sat around here at my house all winter long (I live in Anchorage, Alaska) and I'm thinking that perhaps the carb has gotten clogged up or something like that. I don't have a fuel pump set up yet for this engine as it's not supposed to need one but I'm not so sure about that now. I also have a UMS 5-cylinder 55cc radial engine that does have a pump set up on it. I may have to order another fuel pump kit from MMM. If I can't get it to run or even fire once I get my starter adapter then I'm going to take off the carb and take it apart and see if there's something suspicious there.

Wow!! I just checked on the price for one of those APS Emcotec fuel pumps at CH-Ignitions and they are definitely costly.......$260.00.....but are probably worth it if you really need a pump to get the engine to run properly. MMM sells a much cheaper fuel pump kit and I may go that route.

Last edited by Gozonablat; 06-20-2024 at 11:51 AM.
Old 06-20-2024, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaketab
Hello Robert. What fuel pump are you have? Link?
I need to install one in the Saito radial as it has the same fuel starvation problem at higher RPM's.

Thanks - J Tab
BTW - I have the APS Emcotec in my 2 Moki's but surely something is out there that will work just as well at a lower cost.
Originally Posted by Robert Dochterman
I just checked out the micro fuel pumps at this link and the price in US dollars is $111.62 which is much less expensive than the APS Emcotec ones at CH-Initions. So......if I definitely think I need a fuel pump for my Saito FG 60cc R3 radial I may go with that option. We'll see on that.
Old 06-20-2024, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Gozonablat
I just checked out the micro fuel pumps at this link and the price in US dollars is $111.62 which is much less expensive than the APS Emcotec ones at CH-Initions. So......if I definitely think I need a fuel pump for my Saito FG 60cc R3 radial I may go with that option. We'll see on that.
That pump, the TCS M400k-v is top quality and perfect for our applications. They ship fast and respond to emails.

Last edited by Robert Dochterman; 06-20-2024 at 12:12 PM.
Old 06-29-2024, 04:35 PM
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I tried the new fuel pump today and seems to do well. With all my testing and changes the temps are holding at 190 F degrees. I checked the fuel consumption twice today and was surprised to see only about 1 fluid oz per minute. This was with a 24-10 SEP prop with a rich mixture holding 5200 rpm. I now feel like i understand this engine and what it takes to perform reliably for me. So as time permits I'll start assembling the BK Gilmore for it with the intention of flying it next spring.
Old 06-30-2024, 06:31 AM
  #360  
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Hi fellas. Interesting on the fuel consumption rate you posted. Have you data on the output of the pump in a real world application? I run several APS units which are possible to regulate somewhat with voltage input. I Would like a pump that would closer match the input requirement for a smaller radial converted to gas. I feel the lowest setting is causing the walbro oversupply due to excessive volume and pressure. I spoke with walbro and they expressed the same concern.
Aaron-
Old 06-30-2024, 08:51 AM
  #361  
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Originally Posted by Robert Dochterman
That pump, the TCS M400k-v is top quality and perfect for our applications. They ship fast and respond to emails.
Robert,
Which voltage and pressure rating did you buy?
Thanks,
Jon
Old 06-30-2024, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Robert Dochterman
That pump, the TCS M400k-v is top quality and perfect for our applications. They ship fast and respond to emails.
Hi Robert.........living here in Alaska the summertime becomes very busy with all kinds of things going on. So.......I may not get back to you about the items we are discussing as soon as I would like to, but I do want to learn what you have in getting these engines to run correctly.
Old 06-30-2024, 11:06 AM
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Default Getting the fuel pump to pump????

Originally Posted by JRSmith
Hello Aaron,

Thanks, I will share my findings and thoughts as I go. Adrian recommended whatever prop Aircraft International recommends for the Moki 150 and it looks like a 26 x 16 x 3 and a 25 x 16 x 3 are what's listed on the site. I am not sure which one I am going to go with, hoping to get some feedback from actual user experiences, but if not I will more then likely buy the 26 x 16 x 3 to start. But I don't want to keep buying props as that can get expensive fairly fast,

This is my first UMS 150, I have had a couple Moki 250's and 150's over the years. But still have tons to learn, so thanks for getting the thread going.

Here is the schematic from my APS fuel pump I will be using with the UMS 150.
I got this all wired up and Iím not getting any fuel to pump. Just wondering what battery you are using and if you have it on a switch? I have mine set to 30% but get nothing when I switch it on. Thanks so much in advance cuz Iím a bit vexed.

tom
Old 06-30-2024, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 1080tommy
I got this all wired up and Iím not getting any fuel to pump. Just wondering what battery you are using and if you have it on a switch? I have mine set to 30% but get nothing when I switch it on. Thanks so much in advance cuz Iím a bit vexed.

tom
For my pump from TCS I have the power supplied from a "Y" harness off the ignition cutoff switch powered by a 7.4 volt 2 cell lipo. Simple, if the ignition is on then the pump will be running.
My pump is positioned lower then the fuel tank so it is automatically primed.
Old 06-30-2024, 02:57 PM
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I am using LiFe 2S on three APS pumped planes. Two 5000 Mah to power the pump and ignition, and the receiver. All give me 3 five minute flights. Also have run the pump and ignition on 2s liPo and 2s lith-ion.
Old 06-30-2024, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by GIJon
Robert,
Which voltage and pressure rating did you buy?
Thanks,
Jon
The voltage is acceptable between 6-12 volts, pressure and flow varies according. See the manufacturer's website for that exact data.
Old 06-30-2024, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyjinx
Hi fellas. Interesting on the fuel consumption rate you posted. Have you data on the output of the pump in a real world application? I run several APS units which are possible to regulate somewhat with voltage input. I Would like a pump that would closer match the input requirement for a smaller radial converted to gas. I feel the lowest setting is causing the walbro oversupply due to excessive volume and pressure. I spoke with walbro and they expressed the same concern.
Aaron-
What did Walbro say was the max acceptable pressure?
See my post # 354. Excess flow is diverted back to the tank. As far as pressure, i use a regulator to set the pressure to a 15"(upto18") column, see post #351. This was determined by 9" from my tank c/l to the carb plus an additional 6" for insurance. So when my plane goes vertical I know the carb will have an adequate supply.
The idea is to have an ELECTRIC pump supply fuel UP TO the carb in all attitudes as needed with excees sent back to the tank. The CARB pump then supplies fuel TO the engine as needed, as usual.

I'll try to get you a real world flow on my setup in a couple of days.

Last edited by Robert Dochterman; 06-30-2024 at 04:34 PM.
Old 06-30-2024, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 1080tommy
I got this all wired up and Iím not getting any fuel to pump. Just wondering what battery you are using and if you have it on a switch? I have mine set to 30% but get nothing when I switch it on. Thanks so much in advance cuz Iím a bit vexed.

tom
Is your pump lower then the tank, and or primed?
Old 06-30-2024, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyjinx
Hi fellas. Interesting on the fuel consumption rate you posted. Have you data on the output of the pump in a real world application? I run several APS units which are possible to regulate somewhat with voltage input. I Would like a pump that would closer match the input requirement for a smaller radial converted to gas. I feel the lowest setting is causing the walbro oversupply due to excessive volume and pressure. I spoke with walbro and they expressed the same concern.
Aaron-
The problem I see with a voltage regulated pump is as the voltage goes down with use, so does the pressure/flow. A regulator with an overflow should be more consistent.
Old 06-30-2024, 03:44 PM
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Two simple tests to see if you need a pump.
1. Adjust your needle vavles for peak rpm (about 2 turns out). Then while engine is running at full rpm carefully adjust needle valve 5 turns out. Does the engine get so rich it's burbling or quits (this is good). If it doesn't (stays near peak rpm) you need a pump.
2.With long enough fuel lines, start the motor and adjust for peak rpm. Lower the fuel tank about 12" by hand. Does the engine get leaner? You need a pump.

Last edited by Robert Dochterman; 06-30-2024 at 04:31 PM.
Old 06-30-2024, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Gozonablat
Hi Robert.........living here in Alaska the summertime becomes very busy with all kinds of things going on. So.......I may not get back to you about the items we are discussing as soon as I would like to, but I do want to learn what you have in getting these engines to run correctly.
For my UMS 5-100 to run satisfactorily for me, i needed a pump.
To keep it cool, I had to use triangular baffles. Flat baffels in between the cyclinders didn't help much.

Simple as those two items but it took two gallons of fuel, lots of testing and head scratching and reliable temperature sensors on EACH cylinder to sort it all out.



Old 07-02-2024, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyjinx
Hi fellas. Interesting on the fuel consumption rate you posted. Have you data on the output of the pump in a real world application? I run several APS units which are possible to regulate somewhat with voltage input. I Would like a pump that would closer match the input requirement for a smaller radial converted to gas. I feel the lowest setting is causing the walbro oversupply due to excessive volume and pressure. I spoke with walbro and they expressed the same concern.
Aaron-
To answer your question , today i checked real world output. On mine with the Micro pump, 5/32" fuel line from the pump into a graduated container i had a flow of 24 oz per minute and 1 psi. Neither is not going to flood the carb with my overflow bypass setup.
Pump manufacturer specs are :
Max Pressure 86 mbar or 1.2 psi
1495 mLpm or 50.5 oz per minute.

With the pump on or off the needle valve is about the same. But with the pump on if i raise or lower the fuel tank, the mixture stays the same.

Last edited by Robert Dochterman; 07-02-2024 at 04:17 PM.
Old 07-02-2024, 05:45 PM
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On Monday the first, I flew my new Phoenix 1/4 scale WACO with the UMS 5-100. Two wonderful flights! The plane flies beautifully. The engine ran perfectly using a Xoar 25x12 prop. The plane has way more power than needed. Scale flight was 1/3 to 1/2 throttle. The second take off was half throttle. The engine is very powerful and runs perfect at all throttle positions. I used the APS powerfuel at 5.5 volts. Tuning is easier at this lower voltage. The baffles worked well. I could touch the engine soon after landing and shut down. Large loops were possible at 1/2 throttle. I will rarely if ever use full throttle. The plane is 27.8 pounds. -Tom
Old 07-02-2024, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Maxam
On Monday the first, I flew my new Phoenix 1/4 scale WACO with the UMS 5-100. Two wonderful flights! The plane flies beautifully. The engine ran perfectly using a Xoar 25x12 prop. The plane has way more power than needed. Scale flight was 1/3 to 1/2 throttle. The second take off was half throttle. The engine is very powerful and runs perfect at all throttle positions. I used the APS powerfuel at 5.5 volts. Tuning is easier at this lower voltage. The baffles worked well. I could touch the engine soon after landing and shut down. Large loops were possible at 1/2 throttle. I will rarely if ever use full throttle. The plane is 27.8 pounds. -Tom
Thanks. Good info.
Old 07-03-2024, 12:56 PM
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I missed an important point. It is not good to have the carb drawing hot air in the cowl. In my installations I have the Kunkle air filter set for Moki radials installed on the carb but not using the filter. Instead I have a piece of heater hose attached to the Kunkle unit going through the firewall so cool air inside the fuselage is being drawn into the engine. CH-Ignitions has this unit as well. -Tom

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