Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

The reason why your losing RPM is because oil makes power. You just went from 32:1 Lawnboy down to 50:1 Amsoil and you lost RPM. You thinned out the oil ratio. Same amount of liquid going through the carb, but less oil in the liquid. Oil seals up rings and fills the voids in the bearing races.

You ever changed the wheel bearings on a car? Even though you KNEW the existing bearings were bad--they actually don't feel bad when you take them out of the axle housing. Why? They are full of GREASE and there is no load on them while they are sitting in your hand. You can't tell that they are .010" too loose while they are in your hand. But your ear tells you the bearings need replacing because the rearend is howling at highway speeds under a load.

What did the new wheel bearings feel like when you took them out of the box? Loose as heck, right? Why? Because the bearings ship without any axle grease packed in them. You pack the bearings with axle grease before you install them in the housing. Fill your palm with grease and force it in between all the needle bearings and the races.

Now which bearing feels tighter? The new one right?

Same theory applies to a model airplane engine bearing. The fuel is what lubricates it. We add oil to the fuel because the pumped gas doesn't have enough lubricants in it from the refinery. You put 4oz of oil in your gallon jug and everything gets plenty well lubricated and the little spaces of .002" and .003" clearence inside the engine get filled with oil and they smooth out. Sounds good. Runs good.

Then you thin the oil out down to 50:1 or 80:1 or gawd forbid 100:1 [X(] and now the fuel is so thin that it won't fill all those little tiny voids. The bearings rattle around in the races. Rattling bearings means friction. Bearings sitting in a bath of oil will float smoothly in the races and there is very little friction.

Same thing with your piston and cylinder wall. While that cylinder wall may appear to be a mirror finish to the naked eye--it's actually full of millions of microscopic holes and scratches. Your rings have little tiny grooves in them too. It's metal on metal--it's gonna wear. VERY SLOWLY, but it's gonna wear.

Do you think a thinner ratio will fill those little voids and seal up the cylinder to give you maximum power on each stroke?

Or would it make sense that the thicker ratio would fill the microscopic voids and scratches better and seal the ring to the cylinder wall better?

So, better seal between the cylinder and the ring. Which one makes more power? The thicker ratio or the thinner one? Which one developes less friction in the bearings? Which one lets the bearings rattle around in the races because the fuel (liquid lubricant) isn't thick enough to fill all the voids?

Whats gonna wear out quicker? A bearing that's in a thicker bath of lubricating fluid or a bearing that's in a lubricating fluid that runs out of the races quickly and allows the bearings to rattle around and vibrate in the races?

Did you know that 100:1 is basically a shot glass of oil in your gallon jug? A standard shot glass is 1oz to the line. 1.25oz to the top of the glass. Fill it up with Amsoil and dump it in your gallon jug. That seam like enough oil to you? A shot glass of oil in a whole gallon of fuel? Lubricate your bearings and keep your piston rings from seizing to the cylinder wall?

100:1 is only about 6.5oz of oil in a 5 gallon jug.

Just something to think about. [sm=71_71.gif] I wouldn't do it. A salesman is a salesman. And if he just happens to be the repair guy too--I'll bet he DOES push Amsoil and tells you to mix it at 100:1. Thats meat on the table for him. [sm=lol.gif]

I could be totally full of goose poop--but it just makes sense to me to run a decent amount of oil in your fuel.

jkswan

Rcpilet, Thanks for the educational refresher, you raise some good points and analogies. I also could never use 100:1, just thinking about only 1.3 onces per gallon makes me shiver with disbelief. I'm sure engine condition, wear, friction etc would have a huge effect on whether that ratio would be adequate. At any rate I won't be trying it, not even is my old beater weed whacker. I like to treat my Lawn Boy mower and other small engines with the same care my model engines receive.

The question for me will always remain as to which type of oil is best for my air cooled model engines, petroleum based or synthetic. Both are adequate and performance may be subject to mixture ratios. I guess it could come down to personal preference as its unlikly I would ever get enough time on them to notice any long term effects.

Common sense often prevails.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

Synthetic will make the engine last longer. Which synthetic and how you mix it is up to you.

We use petroleum based oils for break in because they aren't as slick and cause the initial wear to happen faster. An engine has to wear into itself to develope maximum power. Parts need to seat and rings need to wear to the cylinder for maximum seal. Petroleum oils alloow this wear process to happen quickly. Synthetics do not.

The common sense thing to do is break it in with petroleum to get the performance we want quickly. Then switch to synthetic because it is so slick that the engine will experience very little wear over an extended period of time.

Are you really going to get 500 gallons of fuel through an engine and ever experience the benefits of the synthetic providing that extra slick protection and causing almost no wear? No. If your like 99% of guys, you'll crash it before you get anywhere near 500 gallons through it.

bhanley

If I remember correctly, no one so far in this thread has mentioned blended oils, i.e.,
primarily synthetic with some petroleum/castor mixed in with it.

Klotz makes one and I believe Bel-Ray does as well. Any thougnts on these from those
more experienced than I??

Kweasel

My Feedback: (29)

Has anyone done a cost/benefit analysis between $50/gallon "synthetic" and any brand of $10/gallon API-TC, JASO??? The cost is easy to calculate, the long term benefits are not. Going to my local field is like entering the Twilight Zone, lots of guys talking about oil and no one using an air-filter. When I ask them what they are thinking, I just get a blank stare.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

The Husqvarna oil I use is a "semi-synthetic" with some synthetic oils and some mineral based oils in it. I do not know the percentages or mix ratio though.

rcdude7

My Feedback: (264)

Rcpilet, Where do you find the husquvarna oil in one gal jugs?

I only seem to find it in the smaller bottles, and only at lowes.

JettPilot

My Feedback: (6)

I really like synthetic oils, its all I use in my cars, Mobil 1, even though its 5 times more expensive, but its worth it. But, there are good synthetics and bad synthetics.

I dont have to use AMSOil to konw its garbage. When MANY Ultralight people report problems, and short engine life from using AMSOIL, I am intelligent enough listen to them and to learn from thier experiences...

Some people dont have the ability to learn from data, reports from others, etc and cant figure something out until they get burned...

I never tried drugs, but saw enough from others peoples experiences with drugs to stay away from them.... I never used AMSOIL, but again, saw enough data from others to know running it was a good way to destroy or shorten the life on my engines [:'(]

JettPilot

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

Right here:
http://www.npeco.com/

You'll have to allow pop-ups and advertisements to get the front page to load up. There are no banner ads or BS on the site, but they have it configured so that the left hand product menu is all pop-ups.

Go to that product menu on the left side and select Oils and Lubricants. Scroll down the page about 1/2 way. It's there in a gallon jug. XP Premium 2-stroke oil. If my memory is correct, it was about $15 for the jug and $7 or 8 for the shipping. $23 for a gallon of oil ain't too bad, considering it will make up 40 gallons of fuel if you mix it 40:1. At 50:1 it would do 50 gallons of fuel. Quick shipping and good service from them on my purchase.

karolh

I am a bit surprised to hear that your switch to Amsoil resulted in a loss of rpm, as I've gotten quite accustomed to reading posts where folks that think Amsoil is the 'only' oil worth using say that using mix ratios of between 80 - 100:1 gave a noticeable incresase in rpm.

Maybe somebody's tach is playing tricks.

Karol

JettPilot

My Feedback: (6)

Why would you get so hung up on a couple hundred extra RPM [sm=confused.gif]

Unless you are flying national competition, its not worth destroying engines for a couple hundred RPM. The sponsered guys can afford to throw engines away every season due to running AMSOIL [:@], but most of the rest of us need our engines to last a reasonable amount of time.

JettPilot

karolh

Come now Jettpilot, read my post again, but this time around try to understand it. Where did it ever give you the idea that I was hung up on the loss of rpm ??

The point I am making is that any reported loss of rpm while using that oil seems contrary to most all the reports I have read about it's almost magical qualities....that's all. Just for your information, I use MC1 at 50:1

Karol

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

They probably just got around to adjusting the needles after breaking the engine in on factory settings with lawnboy @ 32:1

I have used Amsoil 100:1 @ 75/80:1 with no problems what so ever. The one thing I can tell you though, since I have switched to Pennzoil @ 32:1 you can see the top of the pistons nice and shinny clean. That does not happen with Amsoil.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

---------------


Just as outboard, water cooled, two-stroke engines vary considerably in their optimum oil requirements from our model two-stroke engines, so do ultralight two-stroke engines.

Because something does not work in a multi cylinder, large displacement, questionably cooled ultra light engine does not mean that it is not suitable for a single cylinder, well cooled, smaller displacement engine.

While our model single cylinder engines fare well most of the time when it comes to cooling, our multicylinder model engines generally do not. Engines with much hotter cylinders than the remainder of the cylinders will tend to experience oil failures/mechanical failures. It doesn't take much imagination to realize that an ultra light engine is going to experience the same situation, but perhaps to a worse degree because of the 35 mph cruise limit imposed upon such aircraft by the FAA. How many of our models cruise as slow as 35 mph? Not many at all.

I would not put my tukkus in a two-stroke powered airplane of more than one or two cylinders (not inline). I love life too much for that, regardless of the type of oil being used.

Judging what is a suitable oil for the single cylinder, air cooled, two-stroke engines used in our models, based upon what ultra light folks use, is not relevant to our application and is not a good idea, as far as I'm concerned.

I have been using Amsoil in my two-stroke engines for years now without a problem. I use the oils at their recommended mix ratios and I don't add any fuel enhancement or stability products to the mix. If the fuel is stale, it gets tossed.

How could Amsoil still be in business after all of these years if their products were so terrible? They couldn't.

After much thinking and reading about this subject, I have come to the conclusion that the majority of what we read about various oil products is nothing but marketing hype. The snake oil salesmen do their best to make their products look good and others products look bad. If a given oil meets the engine manufacturer's specifications, regardless of price, that is what I will use - at the lowest price point. When my Amsoil is gone there will be no more. I'm going back to the cheapest stuff that fits the manufacturers requirements. The rest of you can waste your money on "magic elixirs" and "nectar of the gods". Me, I just want to go flying. <G>


Ed Cregger

karolh

Ed,

That was an excellent post.

Karol

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

Amen to that!! I've been saying just about the same thing for quite awhile now. You could buy the cheapest oil on the planet. As long as it's designed for an air-cooled 2-stroke and you mix it according to the directions, it's gonna work fine. It's gonna work BETTER than the oil we had 5, 10 or 30yrs ago. Your basic mineral oil or any oil made from dead dinosaurs is going to work just fine as long as you follow the mixing directions, adjust the needles properly and keep some air moving over the engine to cool it.

I've been threatening to buy a DA50 and buy the cheapest oil from the bottom shelf at Wally World and run it according to the label on the bottle. I'll bet the engine runs totally fine for as long as I don't crash it.

Thats why I picked the oil that I'm running now. It's costing me about $0.60 cents per gallon of 40:1 fuel for my Husky oil and it works totally fine.

Josey Wales

My Feedback: (61)

I double-dog dare you!!!

BTW, what stores sell Pennzoil ?

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

I think I will go ahead and do it sometime late this spring or early this summer. I'm NOT blowing' smoke outta my tail end.

Whats the worse thing that could happen? It would fall apart inside the first 10 gallons and I'd have to send it back to DA and find out just how good their "wonderful" customer service really is? I got no problem with that. From what everyone on this forum says--they will practically rebuild an engine for $25 or less.

Now I just gotta do some reasearch and find the cheapest oil I can get my hands on. Or, for a really abusive test, I could just buy any old oil I can find when ever I need it. Buy the cheap stuff from the local Conoco station on the way to the field on Sunday and run that for a few gallons. Then stop by the local big box the next weekend and buy some of their "black label" oil in the lawn & garden section. Run that for a gallon or 2. Never the same thing twice. Always changing it up. I'd follow the directions on the oil bottle and mix it up how they tell me.

I'm not looking to INTENTIONALLY blow up an engine just so I can say it's a piece of junk. Quite the contrary, I'm looking to take one of the most popular and respected engines available and run it on any old 2-stroke oil I can find to prove my point. It won't fair any worse than any other engine thats been run on Lawnboy at 32:1 or Amsoil at 100:1. I want to prove that you can run ANY 2-stroke air-cooled oil in a modern engine and not hurt a darn thing.

Anyone want to place any bets on how many gallons I get through the engine before she blows up? Or, maybe we could start a pool and donate the money to charity? The guy who gets closest without going over wins the door prize (RCU HAT or T-SHIRT ?) and we donate the money to some worthy charity.

$1 bets. No more--no less. That keeps it simple. Bet as many times as you want. I'll keep an honest log of fuel through the engine and send it in for regular service once per season.

I'll bet $1 on 250 gallons.

rmh

You are a naughty naughty boy--
why not just ask your engine mfgr for oil specs FIRST then buy cheapest oil with those specs.
If he doesn't know what specs are - try another mfgr ---

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

I'm open to any suggestions or "rules" of the game that people may have.

Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

I'll say this again...DA for one does not say you have to use Amsoil at all, they do say ANY good quality synthetic after broken in.
I even asked them on the phone as I refuse to run Amsoil but prefer Belray, they said its fine, no one told you you had to run it.
Where do people get this must run it on Amsoil from? Its complete baloney.
Rcpilet, I dont think you will wreck it at all.
Last week I bought a gallon of gas to put in my leafblower, didnt put the oil in at the time, came home to find my wife had run a whole tank thru it, to make matters worse I ran another quarter tank until I stopped because it felt kinda hot, went and looked in the can and twas a nice amber color
[:@]
Guess what? its still running good now its got oil, a week later and another 4 tanks thru it.
Brand new Stihl commercial weedie, ran Amsoil 100:1, seized 2 weeks later, got berated by the service shop for using Amsoil, put it on Stihl oil and its been going 2yrs now with everday use.
Think Im gonna use Amsiol at 100:1 in my DA 100?....Not a chance.

bubbagates

My Feedback: (32)

How many of us do this to our weed eaters/blowers and they just keep on running and running and running and they get very little air compared to what our engines see and guess what, most of the engine we buy (with Da being the exception and maybe 3W) are either directly converted from these engines or bits and pieces of them. Brison, Fuji, Brilleli and a couple others come to mind

As far as Ultralite engines, which set of cylinders are seeing the most damage, my guess ould be the second set on a 4 cylinder engine. Remember Harleys had this problem with V-twin engines some time ago where the back cylinder was literally destroying istelf because of a lack of cooling along with the heat from the front cylinder and these were 4-stroke engines

Granted, I used to use Amzoil at 100:1 and I kept an eye on my engines by looking as best as I could through the exhaust ports and all of them started to carbon up (1 DA50, 2 Brison 3.2's and one 3W55i). I switched back to 50:1 Penzoil Premium Air-cooled and since then the exhaust ports have cleaned up and my temps are down

rc bugman

My Feedback: (30)

rcpilet,

Under the hobby pilot regime, a DA or 3W will last a very long time with any 2 stroke oil. When I was less informed, I ran tw3 outboard oil in my fleet of 3w engines for several years and that was at WOT for 30 min at a time. The only problem was I plugged those little holes in the muffler.

I will bet $5 that you crash the airplane before you wear out the engine.

Elson

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Josey - Wally World has "Pennzoil Outdoor Equipment" 2 cycle oil. RIght next to their own "who knows WHAT" synthetic oil.... (maybe that's what rcpilet will get for his DA destruct test??? )

I have run only Pennzoil at 40:1 in all three of my motors all spring/summer. Not a lot, but enough to know it works for me, and things are staying pretty cool, and VERY clean.

It's not exotic, but it gives me a reason to go to Wal Mart .....

captinjohn

To lean running because of a Hi speed needle valve set lean , is FAR worse than picking what may be the wrong 2 cycle engine oil. Set that carb right....about any oil will work. But I am going to use Pennsoil because it is said to run clean. Capt,n