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Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

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Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

Old 11-20-2006, 07:41 PM
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DaddySam
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Default Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

I was looking at different two stroke oils today. I've got Lawnboy Ashless, Pennzoil 2 Cycle for Air Cooled Engines, and Amsoil Saber and Amsoil Dominator (and some Penz 30 wt, but that's another story...). Anyway, I was at the local Ace Hardware Store and noticed that they have Ace brand oil (I realize somebody else makes it for them), and in the two stroke for air cooled engines category they have three different oils. They have an Ashless, Low Ash, and Fully Synthetic, all of which say to mix to your engine manufacturers recommendations. So my question is, what is the difference between the three types of oils ( I figure that the synthetic must not be petroleum based but other than that I'm not sure). Without a chemistry lesson, I'm curious as to what "ash" is, and what its for.
Thanks in advance,
Sam
Old 11-20-2006, 08:38 PM
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Kweasel
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

There are two specifications for two stroke oil. One is for low temperature applications, specifically outboard marine engines (TCW-3) and the other is for higher temperature-high performance applications(API-TC or JASO). The term synthetic is just for markerting and generally has little value. All of these types have proven to work well in model engines so it makes little difference what you choose. One thing is for sure, whatever oil that Im using is the very best and nothing else will work.
Old 11-20-2006, 11:45 PM
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Checklst
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

LOL kweasel.............................
Old 11-21-2006, 12:15 AM
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bodywerks
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

I just switched from Lawnboy to Bel Rey MC-1. I am fouling plugs like crazy!!! This is actually a GOOD thing, though, because it means the Bel Rey is cleaning all the carbon deposits left from the ashless oil out of the cylinders, and, once the plugs do finally fire, I am noticing a slight increase in performance.
Old 11-21-2006, 08:56 AM
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Geistware
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

Unless you run the Belray above 60:1 you will still get the fouling and carbon.
I had to go as high as 65:1 to get it to burn clean.
ORIGINAL: bodywerks
I just switched from Lawnboy to Bel Rey MC-1. I am fouling plugs like crazy!!! This is actually a GOOD thing, though, because it means the Bel Rey is cleaning all the carbon deposits left from the ashless oil out of the cylinders, and, once the plugs do finally fire, I am noticing a slight increase in performance.
Old 11-21-2006, 10:59 AM
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

Sam,
After much much debating on several threads and after reading a few reports I decided to break-in with Pennzoil 2 stroke ashless 32:1 and after break-in just lean it out to about 50:1. I did switch to a synthetic but like I said after much reading and after having several 2 strokes at least 15 years old (leaf blowers etc) and I have a Zenoah G62 about 20 years old which runs flawlessly, I decided to stick with the older proven oils...... I also have a FPE 3.2, DA50 and a Quadra40. They all run just fine on it and I have had no fowled spark plugs or stuck rings. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.... Good Luck.... Bill
Old 11-21-2006, 11:36 AM
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DaddySam
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

Bill
From what I've read, the Pennzoil 2 cycle for air cooled engines is a "low ash" oil, and the manufacturers like BME, 3w, and DA recommend "ashless" for break in. Is there some magic muju out there that makes one type of oil desirable for break in and one for running after that?
Just curious, not trying to start a brand war.....
Thanks
Sam
Old 11-21-2006, 01:10 PM
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Tired Old Man
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

Unless you're running the engine for hours at a time, mixing the Belray at 65-1 is probably a good idea. It's a great oil and manages to lower the running temps a little. If you're using a denser oil mix then re-working the needles would be a good idea to get things back to peak again.
Old 11-21-2006, 01:42 PM
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

The cleanest running oil I have seen to dated (inside the engine) has been the Pennzoil air cooled @ 32:1, although I have not tried Belray yet.
Keith (BME) said that the cleanest engines he has seen have been run with Pennzoil air cooled @ 32:1 and now he is recommending that for break in and after wards.
Old 11-21-2006, 01:52 PM
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rcbill
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

I have read good things about the Belray like Silversurfer says. If I were to go to a syn I would follow Silver's advice. He and a few others on these threads will not lead you wrong. I don't know if there is any majic between ashless and low ash. All I am saying is I'm probably going to stick with what has worked well for me in the past until I get a clear message from above that something else is better. I mix the Pennzoil and run it in every 2 stroke I have. If I think the gas is getting stale I just mix it in my lawn mower or my snow blower. In reality I don't think any of my gas has gone bad but what the heck why take chances. Bill
Old 11-21-2006, 01:56 PM
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rcbill
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

Perhaps I should have called it Pennzoil for air cooled engines.... but I think you get the idea.... duh..... Bill
Old 11-21-2006, 06:44 PM
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines


[quote]ORIGINAL: Geistware

Unless you run the Belray above 60:1 you will still get the fouling and carbon.
I had to go as high as 65:1 to get it to burn clean.
[quote]ORIGINAL: bodywerks


Although Bel Ray recommends a mix ratio between 50 and 80:1 for their MC1, how well did the 65:1 mix work, and do you still use it. I use MC 1 mixed at 50:1 and it leaves a small amount of residue on my models.

I have toyed with the idea of going to a lower percentage of oil, say 60:1 but would prefer to have to do a bit of cleaning up rather than damage my engine. What are your thoughts here.

Karol
Old 11-21-2006, 07:05 PM
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Richardrc
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

Don't use Lawnboy or Briggs & Strattan, as they are designed for slow running lawn mowers. You should use an oil made for high rpm engines ( chainsaws ). I use Husqvarna oil.
Old 11-21-2006, 07:25 PM
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Diablo-RCU
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

Ashless refers to the detergent package in the oil. It leaves no ash in a lab test when they burn the oil at high temperature. Ashless oils are designed for water cooled (lower temperature) boat motors which run for a long time at a constant speed. This constant speed running can whisker the plug with an ash deposit - if the oil contained some ash.

Low-ash oils use a different chemistry detergent package which leaves a little ash in the lab test when they burn the oil at high temperature. These oils are designed for air-cooled engines which run hotter and with varying rpm. The low-ash oils will leave fewer deposits in your air-cooled motor because the detergent package is designed to work in an air-cooled motor. Whiskering the plug is not a problem if you operate the engine with varying throttle settings.

Contrary to widely circulated internet BS, oils do not contain abrasives, and no one in their right mind would put abrasives in an oil to "speed up the break-in process", and ash is not an abrasive. Again, ash is just a byproduct of a lab combustion test.

Why Lawnboy for break-in? ....No good reason and plenty of bad ones.
Manufactured by Citgo, owned by the nutball government of Hugo Chavez. It's an ashless oil, and ashless detergents aren't the best choice for air-cooled motors. So it will leave more deposits in your engine than a low-ash oil.

But wasn't Lawnboy oil designed for an air-cooled two stroke Lawnboy mower? Yes, but lawnmowers run at constant speed, so the ashless detergent just prevents the plug from whiskering, so you don't have to change the plug every time you want it to start.

Synthetic vs petroleum oil. Both oil types are available as either ashless or low ash. Remember it's the detergent package that determines if it's an ashless or low-ash.


Old 11-21-2006, 08:20 PM
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DaddySam
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

Thanks a lot for the great information. I guess I'll continue to use my Pennzoil, and give the ashless oil the heave ho. I really just want to run one oil for everything, so for now it's Pennzoil at 40:1.
Thanks again,
Sam
Old 11-24-2006, 12:20 AM
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

I have been using Stihl 2 cycle oil with great results. Think about it; It's designed for air cooled engines that are ran for several hours at a times under the harshes conditions. Been using it in my chains saws and weed wackers for years, and have never had a oil related problem. I would stick to an oil designed for the leading chainsaw manufacturers (Husqvarna Stihl).

In the boating world we call Pennsoil, liquid death.
Old 11-24-2006, 03:11 PM
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines


ORIGINAL: DaddySam

Thanks a lot for the great information. I guess I'll continue to use my Pennzoil, and give the ashless oil the heave ho. I really just want to run one oil for everything, so for now it's Pennzoil at 40:1.
Thanks again,
Sam
I did the same thing. Plane engines, lawn boy mower, leaf blower, and snow blower all get the same mix.
Old 11-24-2006, 11:11 PM
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

I would not use Amsoil in any engine.

In the ultralight world, there have been a huge number of engine failures using AMS oil. These guys have thier butts on the line and they mix properly and monitor EGT (Exaust Gas Temperatures) and CHT (Cylender Head Temperatures). Having the most RPM is secondary, reliable running and not destroying your engine are the most important things. The ultralight guys have tried different mixes, etc. etc. and they overwhelmingly as a group do not use AMSOIL . They dont want to destroy thier engines, they dont want gummed up, stuck rings, they dont want excessively high temperatures, and they dont want to die.

Finding settle differences in good oils is beyond what most of us can do, but when there is one oil that is so bad compared to the others, its very easy to tell.

JettPilot
Old 11-25-2006, 12:19 AM
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

JETPILOT, From what you said, no Amsoil. DO you or have you experienced any problems? You also did not say what the Ultra-lite guys use.
Inquirying minds want to know.
Old 11-25-2006, 02:23 AM
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines


ORIGINAL: T-one

JETPILOT, From what you said, no Amsoil. DO you or have you experienced any problems? You also did not say what the Ultra-lite guys use.
Inquirying minds want to know.
I think I can say with confidence that JetPilot has never had any problems with Amsoil.

He's never used the stuff.

Can't say I blame him. I won't use it either. I run Husqvarna chainsaw oil in every 2-stroke gas engine that I have. I mix it at 40:1 and have no troubles.

The CLEANEST engine I ever saw was an old Sachs 2.4 that I dug outta the dumpster. It had been crashed and the prop hub was bent pretty bad. The guy didn't know any better and he thought the crank was bent, so he tossed it in the dumpster. I took the engine home and used a dial indicator to determine that the crank was within .002" or .003" Good enough to run if it had a new prop hub. Anyway, I took the jug off and was amazed that it looked like a brand new engine inside. It was almost completely shiny inside. When I found out the name of the guy who had crashed it, I gave him a call to give the engine back to him and recommended that he just have a new hub made for it and keep flying it. I asked him why he would throw away a brand new engine. He told me that engine had hundreds and hundreds of gallons through it, and he wasn't too worried about tossing it in the can. I asked him what oil he had been running and he told me it was Bombardier. He works at a snowmobile repair shop and I think he had seen the insides of plenty of snowmobile engines over the years. That musta been why he picked Bombardier oil for his airplane engines. Seams to have worked. At least for a couple hundred gallons or so. [8D]
Old 11-25-2006, 08:24 AM
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

I have watched with interest how short the life of various gassers are that are and have been owned by the local Amsoil distributor. He uses mostly 100-150cc engines. The sized and burnt-up engine repair costs could most likely feed a small nation somewhere. It goes without saying that he pushes this product to each and every gas engine user around. Unfortunately, too many fall for his sales pitch. Maybe the local weather has something to do with this. Summer temps average 100* with humidity of 85%. (By this I mean the weather effects the ENGINES.)

On the other hand, the locals that have been using gassers for more than 20 years are using various chain saw oils such as Stihl, Echo & Pennzoil. They have old, well running engines. Even when they purchase new engines they use the same fuel.

So, what conclusion can we draw? "Old oils" are no good? Don't think so.

I have always questioned WHY things are the way they are. My conclusion is that the reason Amsoil is used at 100:1 etc, is because it only contains lube. The "other cheap" oils contain other products such as stabilisers, rust inhibitors and detergents. Whatever it is, I either use Echo oil because it is easily available or Klotz 50:1 air cooled 2-stroke oil. My engines range from ZDZ 40cc to 3W 150cc. Some conversion engines are also used. The same fuel/oil mix is used for all of them. Hundreds of flights have been done using this with no ring sticking, seizing or any other lube failure. Why should I change?

Safe Flying!

PS - All of the above are, as usual, my own opinion. You are welcome to your own.

Old 11-25-2006, 11:20 AM
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

I'm no expert, but I'd guess that there are only a handfull of refineries who crack, blend, and package these oils for the hundreds of different brands we see. No doubt that some "prestige" brands are packaged from the same tanks as WalMart brands or proprietary brands like Polaris and Stihl. I have no idea how to find out which is which though.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if one of our lauded brands was the same exact oil as one of our dreaded brands...just in a different package. Wouldn't it be ironic if the (dreaded) Pennzoil* product was, in fact, the exact same oil as the Bombardier oil from the above posting!? Wouldn't surprise me, but I suppose we'll never know.

I see that often in my business and am always surprised at how shocked people are when I discuss it with them.

*Pennzoil is actually Quaker State, owned by Shell Oil, distributors of "Slick 50", etc. Gets kinda comlicated, huh?

[link=http://www.challengers101.com/EngineOils.html]Some more reading...[/link]
Old 11-25-2006, 12:35 PM
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

I used Amsoil at 100:1 and 80:1..although not for years so I cant say anything about any long-term effects..Ive sinced switched to BelRay H1R at 50:1 because I can get it locally..no complaints so far..I can also get the Pennzoil local as well so I may give that a shot as well..
Old 11-25-2006, 09:03 PM
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines


ORIGINAL: kolarshooter

I'm no expert, but I'd guess that there are only a handfull of refineries who crack, blend, and package these oils for the hundreds of different brands we see. No doubt that some "prestige" brands are packaged from the same tanks as WalMart brands or proprietary brands like Polaris and Stihl. I have no idea how to find out which is which though.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if one of our lauded brands was the same exact oil as one of our dreaded brands...just in a different package. Wouldn't it be ironic if the (dreaded) Pennzoil* product was, in fact, the exact same oil as the Bombardier oil from the above posting!? Wouldn't surprise me, but I suppose we'll never know.

I see that often in my business and am always surprised at how shocked people are when I discuss it with them.

*Pennzoil is actually Quaker State, owned by Shell Oil, distributors of "Slick 50", etc. Gets kinda comlicated, huh?
I can't argue with any of that.

I am convinced that Husqvarna doesn't make the oil that I bought in a gallon jug and mix up at 40:1 in all my engines. They don't make oil. They make chainsaws and brushcutters. If I don't know the source, then why use it? Because Husqvarna chainsaws are some of the most expensive and most reliable saws on the market. I doubt that the manufacturer would slap their label on a bottle of oil they didn't trust in their engines.

Off topic, but a perfect example:
Want a new furnace? Thinking of a Trane or American Standard but can't make up your mind? Go with the contractor who is the most trustworthy or is willing to do more for the same price. The furnaces are both made in the same factory on the same production line. Betty slaps a Trane sticker on the odd numbered units that come off the production line and Joe slaps an American Standard sticker on all the even numbered units. [X(]

Same thing with Ducane and Lennox.

Same thing with Carrier and Bryant and Cobra. Same factory. Same production line. Different sticker or paint code.
Old 11-25-2006, 11:24 PM
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Default RE: Two Cycle Oil for Air Cooled Engines

I have new Zen G38 that I've just finished running my second gallon through using Lawn Boy Ashless at 32:1. At this point I wanted to switch to a synthetic like Bel Ray or Amsoil or ?. Today I tried a few flights using Amsoil Saber 100:1 mixed 50:1. ( I was chicken to try 100:1 or even 80:1 in this relatively new engine) The label states "Richer mixtures may be used where desired", but from my brief test I'm not so sure richer is the way to go with this particular oil. Also the Amsoil rep recomended only 100:1 for industrial air cooled engines and although he delivered a well trained sales pitch and convinced me to try it, he was not familar with our model engines and had no idea what they are about and the cost.

On the first Amsoil 50:1 flight I had to lean out my high speed slightly as well as my idle speed decreased by about 500 rpm. Not sure why? I just compensated with throttle trim. Also the engine seemd to be lacking power compared to the Lawn Boy oil at 32:1. With out any needle change I lost about 200 rpm on the 50:1 mix. ie the less power I noticed. I also had more oil residue behind the exhaust which was also very minimum with Lawn Boy. I may need to lean out my HS a bit more on the next flight. For years I've run some Quadra and Brison engines using Bel Ray at 50:1 with good succes. From the exhaust port the cylinders always looked very clean and shinny. I guess I'm just open to trying new technology including oils vs. sticking with the proven.

Here in central MN were now flying in temps of 30-40 Deg and I'm not sure what if any effect that has on what oil (synthetic or petroleum) or mixture to use, but I can say we don't have any cooling issues at this time of the year. If someone wants to weigh in on whether ambient temps have any influence on what mixtures or oil to use , I'm open. Other years when I've used the same oil and mixture summer and winter the only adjustment we usually make is to richen up both low and high speed needles slightly for the colder temps as they seem to lean out some with the colder air especially the high speed.

I guess at this point I'd have to agree with what has already been said, that is, most any good quality air cooled oil mixed at the manufactures recomendations will work. There are many success stories shared here and everyone has their favorites which have proven successful for them.

I have a hard time leaving well enough alone, I may have to try Pennzoil Air Cooled before going back to Lawn Boy or Bel Ray. With my limited testing I'm not sure Amsoil is going to be the "best" oil for me.

By the way, thanks to everyone for all the great information and experiences that have been shared on RCU.

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