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Saito FG-20 or 21

Old 03-02-2009, 07:05 PM
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rcdude7
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21


ORIGINAL: Saillfish

Hey Guys, Made a mistake in my video. The prop is a 16X 6 APC. Sorry [&o]

I was gonna say that this matches most of the 120 glow twostrokes out there.



Still a very respectable number for that prop size.
Old 03-02-2009, 11:41 PM
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Saillfish
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

Well I flew my Funtana X100 today with the saito FG-20 swinging a apc 16 x 6. Max rpm was 8840. It took off and flew great. I pointed it straigt up on take off and it climbed easy. The plane came in at 9 lbs 6 oz. empty. I would guess it had about 1 to 1.3 weight to power ratio. I flew the plane for 12 minutes and it used maybe 2.5 oz. of fuel. I have a Funtana 90 with a YS 1.10. This airplane burns 15 oz. in 12 minutes. It is a true 3D machine. I would say the ys has 15 to 20 percent more power. About the cost of this engine. Yes it is costly. But it ran and sounded great. Not to mention it sipped the fuel. It was perfect for everything and would even hover the aircraft. It would only be a low to the ground 3D plane for a expert due to not alot of pull out power, but it did have it. Now for the zenoah 20 cc. I was not happy with that motor in anyway on my Yak 54. But I did not mess with it enough to be fair to bash it to much. If is HEAVY. 45 0z before the battery to run it. My friend has a Funtana 90 and just put a new CRRC 26 cc in it and the Saito 20 cc out performed it. I will video the Funtana/saito as soon as the wind lays down and post the you tube link here.
Old 03-03-2009, 12:00 AM
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Saillfish
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21


ORIGINAL: togatoga

If you ask me to justify the purchase of this engine,I seriously can't.After having used and operated it, I find that it is a zero sum game.The cost of the engine is rather high, coupled with the higher maintenance required i.e adequate lubrication and heat issues ,additional weight and extra wiring vs the fuel savings , it just doesn't add up.The fg36 for that capacity is fine but i think anything lower becomes a novelty.
You just can't afford to fling the plane about with nary a care as the cost of damage repair is rather high.The pump assembly alone will set you back more than 100 bucks and I seriously don't know how long the pump will last and it is not serviceable.A cheap chinese two stroke at a fraction of the cost would give you more courage! just my 2 cents.
Togatoga, The parts are inline with any other engine parts. The pump complete is under 35 bucks. Here is the link.
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...odID=SAIG20160
Old 03-04-2009, 09:20 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

A gas engine this small that will fit in a sixty size cowl is a benefit. I have just purchased the FG-20. I have not been able to bench test it yet. I can't wait to. I have just test mounted it in a World Models 60 size Mustang that has been bashed. I only had to make the opening in the cowl a little bigger than the one I made for the YS-110 that I was going to put in. I also had to cut a hole in the firewall for the carb pump housing to fit into. Other than that, it is exactly the size of the YS-110. The weight difference is not a problem due to the way less amount of fuel required to fly. I also can put the tank on CG so that it doesn't change the balance of the plane durring flight.

I have figured out that the difference in price will pay for itself in about three to four months over glow fuel. 6oz. of gas compared to 18 oz. of fuel per flight. So in the long run the savings will be great.

On this string I have read that the engine does not have the horse power over glow. I wonder how long you have been flying this engine. I don't think this engine will come to life for at least twenty to thirty flights. Maybe more. Gas engines break in very slow, especially at twenty to one ratio. Wait till you get her broke in. Another thing, if you don't have to worry about noise. Take the muffler off and see how much more power you will gain. A Saito really sound good without a muffler.

I have a Saito 100 right now in a 60 size Spitfire. I am going to take the engine out and put in an FG-20 as soon as I get the Mustang done. I will save a lot of money over time not buying glow fuel.

Thanks
Old 03-04-2009, 10:09 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

I do not have this engine but am following this thread and a couple of others that talk about this engine. I have recently turned to gas and now my fleet is about 50/50. The smallest plane that has a gas in is the H9 Corsair with Zenoah 20. Great combo. I also have a SPE40, Evo 45, and a DL50(a Beast). I want this engine for the TF 60 size Mustang ARF. I just want to hear some more numbers and how reliable it is. I have the plane on back order and will build before i buy a power plant. I just want to know that it is worth the money. I have had some bad times with the 125 Saito's and don't another trouble engine. Don't think i am bashing saito i have an 82 and had a 100(corsair) and loved them just seemed to have bearing trouble with the 125. Anybody with info and numbers on the fg20 would be great.
Old 03-06-2009, 01:23 PM
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ALpmc
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

I am Sallfish's friend with the C-pro 26i. I'm still dialing my Funtana 90 in and have not made any carb adjustments. The engine is not broken in and Saillfish noted that I was using a 17oz tank!!!!!! I was only burning a few ounces and lugging the remainder around! I'm still playing with different props as well. The verdict is not in yet. I'm expecting the little engine to improve.

At the first round of flying Saillfish's Saito FG 20 in his 100 did not disappoint me in the least. Level flight and speed was pilot dependent, and not too fast at full throttle. It's vertical at full throttle was slow but sure and only stopped when Saillfish was ready. It would climb from a hover, but slowly. As Saillfish stated, with my current skills I would only 3D this plane at altitude. A better pilot might feel safer challenging the ground. The engine, I believe, will improve after run time and some tweaking. This plane flies like I want mine to, slow and steady in any attitude.

Saillfish's 90 with the YS 1.10 out performs both of our gassers.

I was not present at the second round of flying. I will let Saillfish fill you in on that one!
Old 03-06-2009, 02:51 PM
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togatoga
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

The engine is definitely lower in performance to the glow 125.This is also confirmed by a recent report in a japanese magazine which did a review.I am getting mid 8000s on a 16x6 with my fg20.My 125 runs faster.
The same goes for the FG36 vs the nitro 220, the manufacturers website quote a .03hp difference in power.
Sailfish, i was looking at the carb complete vs a walbro when doing the comparo.I should have been clearer.
This is not a 3D powerhouse like a YS110 but an engine suited for those preferring gas.
I still believe that a small 2 stroke gasser is more cost effective unless you prefer the 4stroke sound.At over 500 bucks, it is costly for an engine so small.To each his own i suppose.
Old 03-06-2009, 11:33 PM
  #33  
mike early
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21




ORIGINAL: skillet92

just seemed to have bearing trouble with the 125. Anybody with info and numbers on the fg20 would be great.
I cannot find a listing for the FG-20 bearings. I wonder if they use the exact same bearings as the 125?




ORIGINAL: togatoga

The engine is definitely lower in performance to the glow 125.... the manufacturers website quote a .03hp difference in power.


point zero three horsepower? It is easier just to say equal power. Close enough in my book....
Old 03-07-2009, 04:48 PM
  #34  
Saillfish
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

A little update on my FG-20. I pulled it out of my X100 and sent it back to Horizon. It is perfect at idle and high speed. But at 1/2 to 2/3 throttle is coughs and sputters. While flying around it sounds like it is missing and the plane kinda jerks do to the rough running. Like I said. High and Low are great. I have never seen a motor run poorly at mid range and great everywhere else. I chased the needles all day trying to figure it out before I shipped it back. A friend of mine has one and it is doing the same thing on the test stand. He thinks the oil ratio is way to rich. He is going to try amsoil at 100 to 1. I am running Honda HP2 at 20 to 1. It seems to run a little hot even at that ratio. It does spit a ton of nasty black oil slug out to the rear case vent hole. Anyone else having any of these problems?
Old 03-07-2009, 05:27 PM
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mike early
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

Black usually means it's still breaking in, parts still mating?

100:1? Bad Idea without needle bearings?

Keep us posted!
Old 03-08-2009, 12:07 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

I am planning on starting my FG 20 next weekend for the first time and do the break-in. I hope I don't have the same problems as Sailfish. In the Saito manual they recommend using EVOX1001Q synthetic oil may be that could make a difference over the Honda HP2. I believe it shouldn't matter but I try to look at the fine details of what could be causing the problem. I will let you know how it goes.

Rmalko
Old 03-08-2009, 08:42 PM
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Saillfish
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21


ORIGINAL: rmalko

I am planning on starting my FG 20 next weekend for the first time and do the break-in. I hope I don't have the same problems as Sailfish. In the Saito manual they recommend using EVOX1001Q synthetic oil may be that could make a difference over the Honda HP2. I believe it shouldn't matter but I try to look at the fine details of what could be causing the problem. I will let you know how it goes.

Rmalko
Rmalko, Please let me know how your motor does. Most of all how it runs at mid range. About the oil, I hear what your saying. But HP2 is maybe one of the best oils out there. Look at your exhaust valve though the exhaust hole and let me know if there is a lot of carbon. Also how much nasty black crap it vents. It did not vent much the first hour but started a lot after that. The manual needle setting wont work. They are 1 1/4 out on the high and 5 1/2 on the low for starters. This horizon is going to correct.
Old 03-09-2009, 09:35 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

Has any flown the engine in a cowled plane? if so, are you using the aluminum mount or a regular nylon mount? Also does anyone know how much the aluminum one weights?
Old 03-09-2009, 09:43 PM
  #39  
Saillfish
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21


ORIGINAL: g_mkoch

Has any flown the engine in a cowled plane? if so, are you using the aluminum mount or a regular nylon mount? Also does anyone know how much the aluminum one weights?
Mine is a cowled engine and I am using the aluminum mount but did not weigh it before I mounted it.
Old 03-09-2009, 10:23 PM
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rmalko
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

I ordered the Saito mount for this engine from Horizon. Saito recommends a metal mount as a source of heat transfer. I will let you know how much that weighs when I get it this week.
Old 03-10-2009, 08:05 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

I also have a coweled airplane. Hanger nine has a universal metal engine mount that is a lot cheaper. It has slots so it makes adjusting the engine a lot easier.
Matt R
Old 03-11-2009, 07:22 AM
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rmalko
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

Sailfish, Here is a little info that may be the kind of problem you had with your engine.

Fuel-based carbon build-up occurs when an engine burns an excessively rich air/fuel mixture. Too much fuel will tend to produce a relatively large amount of carbon waste that is not as thick as oil deposits but it is hard, dry and tougher to remove.

Thick deposits of carbon also tends to increase engine compression simply because the carbon deposits take up more space inside the combustion chamber. Abnormally high compression may result in spark knock (detonation), particularly when driving under load or accelerating. In more extreme conditions, if carbon deposits are thick enough, the top of the piston may actually come into contact with the carbon-coated cylinder head or valves. When this happens, the sound resembles a hammer noise or like a rod bearing has gone bad.

When I start my FG 20 I will try to watch out for this. Hopefully I get off to a good start with the break-in.
Old 03-11-2009, 11:09 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21


ORIGINAL: rmalko

Sailfish, Here is a little info that may be the kind of problem you had with your engine.

Fuel-based carbon build-up occurs when an engine burns an excessively rich air/fuel mixture. Too much fuel will tend to produce a relatively large amount of carbon waste that is not as thick as oil deposits but it is hard, dry and tougher to remove.

Thick deposits of carbon also tends to increase engine compression simply because the carbon deposits take up more space inside the combustion chamber. Abnormally high compression may result in spark knock (detonation), particularly when driving under load or accelerating. In more extreme conditions, if carbon deposits are thick enough, the top of the piston may actually come into contact with the carbon-coated cylinder head or valves. When this happens, the sound resembles a hammer noise or like a rod bearing has gone bad.

When I start my FG 20 I will try to watch out for this. Hopefully I get off to a good start with the break-in.
What your saying makes allot of sense. But the strange thing is the engine did not seem to be running rich at all. I have been in RC aircraft for 30 years and have not ever come across these strange problems. Another guy in my area ordered the FG-20 and is having the same problems as me. He called me yesterday and said he ran amsoil in his at 1.5 oz to the gallon which is 85:1 ratio and it ran much better at low/mid/high range. I am not about to run mine that lean on oil. Mine is back to Horizon for them to look at it. If it does not run better when I get it back I am going to find out what it takes to get my money back. Keep me posted on yours and I will let you know what Horizon says or does about mine.
Old 03-14-2009, 06:32 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

I have mine mounted in a Seagul 60 size 540 Edge. Like others, I spent most of the day playing with the needle settings. I am at about 1-1/4 on the high and 5-6 on the low. I retarded the timing a bit and that eliminated some of the popping but it still runs rough in the middle. When I adjust for the middle then the low end goes wacky. I think I will try running less oil tomorrow, I too think it is too rich. We'll see. I am not prepared to give up on it, I think Saito is right on track with converting these small glow to gas.

R/C Foolish
Old 03-14-2009, 08:55 PM
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Saillfish
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

R/C Foolish,
Seems saito sold us engines that were not ready to be sold yet. It seems allot of guys are having the same problem. Could be their gas carb is not as good as they claim. Mine is sent back to Horizon right now. I will let everyone know what they say. I feel a big old give us all our money back coming on. But maybe with all of us working on this we can figure it out. I think I was the first one to post that 1 1/4 on the high and 6 on the low was the starting point. Heck it wont even start with their settings.
Scott
Old 03-14-2009, 08:59 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

I figured it out my first day trying to run the engine. Just wasn't getting fuel, needed to open up the low end a lot. Maybe there is just too much oil in the fuel, I am going to try my regular mix for my DA-100 in it next, I use amsoil. I will try 1 tank and see what happens.

R/C Foolish
Old 03-14-2009, 09:05 PM
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Saillfish
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

R/C foolish,
I posted my friend ran amsoil at 85:1 and said it did much better. What mix ratio are you going to try. Let us know. I worry because it has bushings, not needle bearing like your DA.
Old 03-14-2009, 09:27 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

I normally run 100:1 for my DA-100, Saito wants 20:1, maybe I will try 50:1 and see if it makes a difference.

R/C Foolish
Old 03-14-2009, 10:25 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

Why not take it in small steps rather than such a big jump from 20:1 to 50:1. Why not try 32:1 first and see how it goes on that ratio, and then maybe even 40:1. Remember bushed engines are very intolerant to low % oil mixes.

Karol
Old 03-15-2009, 05:25 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

Well, I give up. Spent a good part of this beautiful day fooling around with a motor that won't run. I should say, it ran for about 8 minutes, good idle, middle and top end. Thought I had it figured out. I switched to a 15x6 instead of the 16x6, fully charged 2000mah battery, put more foam under fuel tank and decreased fuel/oil mix to about 35:1. Let sit for a while, tried to start, no good. Had to add gas to carburator to draw fuel in, still will not run. Mixture settings about 1 turn on the high and 6 turns on the low. I can't figure it out but I know I should not have to do this much to a new motor. Horizon will have to fix it, replace it or refund my money!

R/C Foolish

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