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DL50 what oil ratio?

Old 07-19-2009, 09:19 PM
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flyerdave
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Default DL50 what oil ratio?

Just finished breaking in this engine on penziol air-cooled at 40:1.I'm going to amzoil synthetic but it scares me to death to think of running anything at 100:1.How will amzoil do at 50:1?Thanks
Old 07-19-2009, 10:33 PM
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MetallicaJunkie
 
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

I would stick to Pennzoil air cooled and go 50:1 ,,,,, I used to use amsoil after the breakin 80:1 but i have read many negative findings about it, so i recently made the switch over to penzz air cooled.. I figure its good enough to use in air cooled Rotax engines that UltraLite pilots lives depend on , its certainly good for my gassers

If you still insist on using Amsoil, 80:1 is good after you have atleast 3 gallons or so through your engine
Old 07-19-2009, 10:54 PM
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Tired Old Man
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

Do not use Pennzoil at 50-1. Max at 40-1. My findings are it's best to avoid the Amsoil completely.
Old 07-20-2009, 08:25 AM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

flyrdave, don't change a thing. Pennz 40:1 is great. If you really need synthetic then go with a 40:1 mix of Red Line, Royal Purple, Bel Ray HR1, Stihl Ultra, Yamalube 2R. There are others but Amsoil will never be on my list.
Old 07-20-2009, 09:24 AM
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Walt and Sage
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

We have been using Amsoil "Dominator" 50 to 1 for YEARS
after Pens break in with NO problems...
We would NEVER try anything else with the success that we have had with this combo...
Not saying it is better than others but just works for us..
Walt

Old 07-20-2009, 12:41 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

After seeing what a few hundred gallons of Amsoil at 88:1 does to a DA100....... I'd never use the stuff.

My friend has a DA100 with serial number 160. It's OLD and has been run on Amsoil at 88:1 for it's entire life. He is the third owner, so no telling how many gallons of fuel have been run through the engine. I think it's safe to say several hundred at least. I know he's personally run at least 50 gallons through it.

It was low on power, so he called DA to ask about a rebuild. They told him between $400 - $500 for new cylinders, pistons, rings and seals. He is self-employed and not working much lately, so he couldn't afford the $$$ to have DA rebuild it. He asked DA if a new set of rings might freshen it up. They said it wouldn't hurt, but don't expect miracles. For $13 it was worth a shot.

We took the cowl off and removed the cylinders. There was BLACK HARD CARBON deposits on top of BOTH pistons. It was like 60 grit sand paper and would NOT wipe off easily. It was hard like a diamond. I picked at it just for a few seconds with an exacto knife to see how thick it was and how hard. I didn't want to damage the piston, so I spent minimal effort trying to scrape off a tiny piece of carbon. It was hard as a rock and probably a few thousandths thick.

Both rings were stuck in the ring grooves. The ring grooves had hard black carbon too. We cleaned the ring grooves a little after removing the rings. The right side ring was stuck so bad I had to break it to get it out. It was LOCKED UP in the ring groove from carbon deposits. It's no wonder the engine was low on power.

We inspected the cylinders. Hard carbon deposits on the top of the combustion chamber. No big surprise after seeing the pistons.

Installed the new rings. Use a little 3-n-1 oil for reassembly.

We then ran 2 gallons of fuel through it with my preferred oil. Husqvarna XP at 32:1 for break in. This is a half synthetic and half mineral oil product. The plane was flown doing the 2009 Sportsman sequences for those 2 gallons. During that time, it's belched out a lot of black spots and also a lot of chunks of carbon deposits.

First few tanks, the performance was mediocre, but thats to be expected. At the end of 2 gallons, the power is back to where it was before we messed with it. I tried talking him into running the same oil (Husqvarna) at 40:1 after the break in - thinking that since it's obviously already started cleaning the engine, it should continue to do so. Getting some of that carbon out would be good for the engine IMO. But he wants to switch to Red Line or Bel Ray or Penzoil.

I expect power to improve over the next 10 or 15 gallons. I don't care what brand of oil he uses. It's his engine. I'm just happy he finally saw the light about Amsoil and decided to quit using the stuff.

Some pictures:
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:44 PM
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Jezmo
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

flyrdave, I agree with MetallicaJunkie, Tired Old Man, and JoeAirPort 100%.
Old 07-20-2009, 01:04 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

If it were me, I would ask the person I'm going to look to for warranty and or service support. The engine user's manual also has something to say as to the recommended fuel/oil mix ratio.
Old 07-20-2009, 01:08 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?


ORIGINAL: jedijody

If it were me, I would ask the person I'm going to look to for warranty and or service support. The engine user's manual also has something to say as to the recommended fuel/oil mix ratio.
I know of 2 people who have had oil related problems with 2 different brands of oil. The brand of the oils is not important. Both oils are the same ones guys in this forum are using DAILY. Popular brands of oil that come highly recommended from many happy users.

Whats important is that the ENGINE manufacturer refused service by saying, "It's not our fault. It's an oil related problem. Contact the oil manufacturer."
Old 07-20-2009, 01:19 PM
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CHRISTANEAGLE
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

Flyerdave, Take a look at my post (low compression) and see what amsoil 100:1 will do to your engine. You live in North Carolina not too far from me and in this part of the country amsoil has a good name. 100:1 is just not enough,if you are planning to use amsoil stick with 32:1. I plan to stick with Pennzoil 32:1 for the life of the engine.
Old 07-20-2009, 01:19 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

Rcpilot, I talked to the guy you are refering to at the Love-air Imac about that very engine. He told me the whole story. I think I'll stick to my Pennzoil.Lol
Old 07-20-2009, 01:22 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

ORIGINAL: flatspinjim

Rcpilot, I talked to the guy you are refering to at the Love-air Imac about that very engine. He told me the whole story. I think I'll stick to my Pennzoil.Lol
I was there. I helped him pit all weekend. I was wearing the orange shirt and tan RCU ball cap. I was flying a yellow and red Mojo 60 profile on Saturday evening after the competition was over. Did all of his calling and starting the whole weekend. Rebuilt the servo mount and installed a new digital servo in the red Extra when he had a throttle servo failure during one of his sequences.

I took that DA100 apart and I put the new rings on it. I put it back together. I started it for the first time after the new rings.

What plane were you flying? What class?
Old 07-20-2009, 01:28 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?



Rcpilot, with all do respect what does any of that have to do with the original post, different engine and support network. When I posted, your post was a one liner with no reference to any manufacturer refusing service of any kind. Furthermore, the manufacturer of the engine in the original post does not recommend Amsoil or the extrememix ratios youreferenced.

Old 07-20-2009, 01:29 PM
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flatspinjim
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

I was flying the Wildhare Extra with the flame scheme. It's kinda hard to miss.Lol
There were a lot of people there, I'm sure I saw you and maybe talked to you but can't place you.Lol
Old 07-20-2009, 01:40 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

I'm just saying that I know of 2 instances where engines needed support. But the manufacturer refused, saying it was an oil related issue. You can guess how far they got when they approached the oil manufacturer about the problem. I.e - sorry about your bad luck.

I tend to be one of those people with a little common sense. I READ manufacturers instruction manuals....... and I take it with a grain of salt. I use my own common sense to make my decisions on what oil I use and what ratio. I don't care what the manufacturer of the engine says. Not saying they are dumb. Just saying I'm smart enough to make my own good decisions, based on my experience and a few brain cells.

Take DA for instance:
For years they recommended Lawnboy ashless at 32:1 as a break in oil. I don't know if they still recommend that oil or not.

But MODELERS who actually use the product have come to the conclusion that Lawnboy ashless is one of the WORSE oils you can use on a brand new engine. It leaves sludge deposits that will eventually turn to carbon. Thats not ME saying that. Thats our peers on this forum. They've taken engines apart and inspected them after using Lawnboy. I'm not making this up.

And what do guys say about Lawnboy now? I'd venture a guess that 90% of them would NOT recommend Lawnboy for break in of ANY 2-stroke.

So why does/did DA put that recommendation in the manual of their expensive engines? Because, at the time they initially made that recommendation, they knew it would work.

Does that mean it's the best thing to put in your engine for break in? No. Will it work? Sure. It'll work. But for the $700+ price tag of a DA50, I'd put something of higher quality in it for those first few gallons. I'd put the BEST quality oil I thought I could find. Not some Lawnboy crap thats made for a lawnmower. Good common sense tells me that stuff will clog up my ring grooves and start sludge build up.

So thats one situation where I'd take the instruction manual with a grain of salt. Just because the engine manufacturer puts it in the manual..... that don't make it gospel.
Old 07-20-2009, 01:43 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?


ORIGINAL: flatspinjim

I was flying the Wildhare Extra with the flame scheme. It's kinda hard to miss.Lol
There were a lot of people there, I'm sure I saw you and maybe talked to you but can't place you.Lol
Thats me.
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:00 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

Yep, I do remember you
Old 07-20-2009, 02:03 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

For the record, the engine is a DL50 not a DA and for the reasons you describe is why I suggested that he ask his preffered support network. As you know, when it comes to oils and mix ratios, the opinions on any forum can be very confusing, varied,and misleading. Your experience, while very good information, could lead someone toignore the manufacturer and or the advise of their selling dealer which, if the engine is still under a manufacturers warranty, would be the worst thing one could do.
Old 07-20-2009, 02:40 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

I own no stock in any oil company, so I have no loyalty in a brand name. Shed some light on why my 25 year old weedeater still runs great today using lawnboy oil from day one. I think the shop owner gave me some when I purchased it and that's how I started using it. I want to know for personal information only and not trying to start something. I also have a lawnboy pushmower I use it in that's about 12 years old. I know this is an airplane engine forum, but they are 2 cycle engines. My weedeater will blow up now since I bragged on it!
Old 07-20-2009, 02:42 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

For all you guys. I've been stating for years to avoid the Amsoil and Lawnboy products. What you've recently experienced is nothing at all new or unusual and has been experienced many times before. RC Bugman provided the same advice because he encountered the same results I did.

Good oils at reasonable ratios in a well tuned and reasonably cooled engine will never get you in trouble. Wall Mart oil at 32-1 works just fine. Really!! Worst case is every 100 hours pull the jugs and do a little clean up work. Just to make life as easy as possible I'll get back a little later with a good over night chemical dip that causes no harm and does a good job.

No offense, but when it comes to the issues noted with the 150 and the other engine, I told ya so.
Old 07-20-2009, 03:54 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?


ORIGINAL: jedijody

For the record, the engine is a DL50 not a DA and for the reasons you describe is why I suggested that he ask his preffered support network. As you know, when it comes to oils and mix ratios, the opinions on any forum can be very confusing, varied, and misleading. Your experience, while very good information, could lead someone to ignore the manufacturer and or the advise of their selling dealer which, if the engine is still under a manufacturers warranty, would be the worst thing one could do.
I KNOW it's a DL50. You apparently don't get my point.

My reference to the DA was just an example to point out how manufacturers don't always give out the best advice. It's not out of malice or ignorance. Just out of different experiences and opinions.

I'm simply suggesting people use their heads, rather than blindly follow a manufacturers recommendation.
Old 07-20-2009, 05:05 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

I do get your point and it is somewhat valid. My point is that if the original poster had the experience and knowledge in operating gas engines that you, myself or many others have to draw conclusions fromhe would not have made his post to begin with. Telling an inexperienced gas engine user with an engine under warranty that his primary support network may mislead him and cause him to damage his engine and that he needs draw his own conclusions from his limited experience and confusing oil forums, does him a disservice.
Old 07-20-2009, 06:23 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

Fair enough.
Old 07-20-2009, 06:46 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

I have a 5.8 sachs what would you guys recomend, it is well broken in, i bought it used, but don't know which oil to add. Ian
Old 07-20-2009, 08:05 PM
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Default RE: DL50 what oil ratio?

Please pardon the copy and pasteas I have gotten tired typing the whole thing out every time but this is my opinion.


First of all the oil needs to be readily available, convenient to obtain, and reasonably priced. I also like to use an oil that carries the name of a reputable manufacturer of reliable and durable AIR cooled engines but this is not a requirement as other oil producers have good quality oil. Some good examples are Penzoil for air cooled engines, Stihl, Echo, Redline, BeRay and there are others. Lawnboy is not one I would use based on what I have seen the oil do to an engine. I like to use synthetics because they tend to leave the engine a little cleaner inside, run cooler and have better lubricity. I use Stihl HP Ultra, there is no good reason to use a different oil for break in than what I plan to use long term in any engine we use for model aircraft. I do run a new engine on a stand for a couple tankfuls with a bit more oil, (32:1) just to get things going. I adjust the carb for optimum performance by the end of the first tank, I would NEVER fly a plane with the carb set at the "factory" settings. After the stand running is complete it goes on a plane, fueled with a 50:1 mix, adjusted again and flown. I won't mess with needles again until the engines tells me it's not happy, this is usually after a couple gallons and may happen again within a few more gallons. I check the plugs for color after about 5 or 6 gallons to make sure things on the inside look as well as they sound on the outside, small adjustment if warranted, and then I won't touch anything for probably a year unless the engine tells me it wants some attention but by this time it's very rare. If I make changes to the prop, exhaust, fuel/oil mix, baffling, etc. then I'll revisit the needles. Another important rule of thumb I live by that I forgot to mention is for mineral based oils I won't run any less oil than 40:1, for synthetics it's 50:1, NEVER less oil than 50:1.


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