Notices
Gas Engines Questions or comments about gas engines can be posted here

GAS Fuel Can

Old 08-14-2009, 02:50 PM
  #51  
thevirginian
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: chesapeake, VA
Posts: 1,859
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: GAS Fuel Can


ORIGINAL: Jezmo


ORIGINAL: thevirginian


ORIGINAL: Jezmo

In all reality there is NO difference in the level of difficulty lighting alcohol vs gasoline with an electric spark. Think spark plug. The same plug that lights off gas will light off alky. I've been flying RC just shy of 40 yrs. and control line for almost 45. In that time I've never seen an electric pump used on gas ignite. I have witnessed an electric pump ignite glow fuel (alky) and the young kid was severely burned. That's only one time in 40 yrs so I guess it's a risk that some choose to take. I use a manual pump for both my gassers and glows but that's just because I'm too dang lazy to charge the batteries to run the pump, not because of fear of fire. I figure I've got a better chance of getting whacked by some idiot talking on a cell phone while driving. Just my two cents.
Jezmo, I have to disagree with you on that one. Although very true that both, gasoline and alcohol are both very falmmable, there is a big difference in their evaporation points. Gasoline evaporates at much lower temps, which makes it so much more volatile. BTW, not the liquid gasoline or alcohol is flammable, but their vapors. Actually you can extinquish a cigarette butt in gasoline or alcohol without igniting the liquid itself. And since gasoline evaborates so quickly there is always a great risk of an ignition by an electrical spark such as a bad battery connection. Electrical pumps and glow fuel pose a much smaller risk, because of the higher evaporation point of alcohol.
You are quite welcome to dissagree kind sir. The point of my conversation is the potential ignition of the fuel at normal temps under which plenty of alcohol vapors will be present to ignite just as with gasoline. I commented that the only accident witnessed in my 45+ years of working with model fuels happened to be with glow fuel. (As I stated the young man was severly burned.) I have been flying giant scale gassers now for almost 25 yrs and by no means am I saying that an accident can't occur using an electric pump for gasoline, it's just that I haven't witnessed any in that very long time. You probably have a better chance of getting seriously injured in an auto accident than getting hurt by an electric fueler setup. In that same amount of time I have personally witnessed dozens of serious auto accidents (some fatal) and that doesn't stop us from driving. Again, it is my humble opinion that one has a greater chance of getting whacked in traffic by a driver talking on a cell phone than by some freak accident using a battery powered fueling system.
Jezmo;
You cannot dispute the fact that gasoline evaporates at lower temps than alcohol, or? Every flammable liquid has a vapour pressure, which is a function of that liquid's temperature. As the temperature increases, the vapour pressure increases. As the vapour pressure increases, the concentration of evaporated flammable liquid in the air increases. Hence, temperature determines the concentration of evaporated flammable liquid in the air.
Each flammable liquid requires a different concentration of its vapour in air to sustain combustion. The flash point of a flammable liquid is the lowest temperature at which there can be enough flammable vapour to ignite, when an ignition source is applied. Gasoline is designed for use in an engine which is driven by a spark. The fuel should be premixed with air within its flammable limits and heated above its flash point, then ignited by the spark plug. The fuel should not preignite in the hot engine. Therefore, gasoline is required to have a low flash point and a high autoignition temperature. The autoignition temp for gasoline is 689°F, for ethanol it is 475°F. There is your proof that gasoline(vapor) ignites much sooner than alcohol (vapor).
Old 08-14-2009, 04:29 PM
  #52  
RCAddiction
My Feedback: (87)
 
RCAddiction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sarasota FL
Posts: 1,010
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: GAS Fuel Can

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ex...its-d_423.html

This link provides room temperature data for concentration level in the air for methyl alchohol and gasoline to burn or explode. Gasoline is explosive between 1.4% and 7.6% concentration in the air. Methyl alcohol (in our glow fuel) requires more concentration, at least 6.7% and up to 36% in the air. So, a very wet spill or flooded area of methanol is possibly very dangerous.

In short, it takes much more methanol vapor in the air than gasoline vapor in the air to go boom.


Glow Pumps - if you have methanol fuel leak inside an electric pump and pool/collect inside the electrical housing, it would be very "responsive" to a spark from a switch or brush motor. Some of the inexpensive gear pumps used for glow fuel electric pumps can be susceptible to internal leaks and could result in a bad day at the field. Very bad, actually, since methanol fires tend to be invisible.
Old 08-14-2009, 10:15 PM
  #53  
Jezmo
Senior Member
 
Jezmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: GAS Fuel Can


ORIGINAL: thevirginian


ORIGINAL: Jezmo


ORIGINAL: thevirginian


ORIGINAL: Jezmo

In all reality there is NO difference in the level of difficulty lighting alcohol vs gasoline with an electric spark. Think spark plug. The same plug that lights off gas will light off alky. I've been flying RC just shy of 40 yrs. and control line for almost 45. In that time I've never seen an electric pump used on gas ignite. I have witnessed an electric pump ignite glow fuel (alky) and the young kid was severely burned. That's only one time in 40 yrs so I guess it's a risk that some choose to take. I use a manual pump for both my gassers and glows but that's just because I'm too dang lazy to charge the batteries to run the pump, not because of fear of fire. I figure I've got a better chance of getting whacked by some idiot talking on a cell phone while driving. Just my two cents.
Jezmo, I have to disagree with you on that one. Although very true that both, gasoline and alcohol are both very falmmable, there is a big difference in their evaporation points. Gasoline evaporates at much lower temps, which makes it so much more volatile. BTW, not the liquid gasoline or alcohol is flammable, but their vapors. Actually you can extinquish a cigarette butt in gasoline or alcohol without igniting the liquid itself. And since gasoline evaborates so quickly there is always a great risk of an ignition by an electrical spark such as a bad battery connection. Electrical pumps and glow fuel pose a much smaller risk, because of the higher evaporation point of alcohol.
You are quite welcome to dissagree kind sir. The point of my conversation is the potential ignition of the fuel at normal temps under which plenty of alcohol vapors will be present to ignite just as with gasoline. I commented that the only accident witnessed in my 45+ years of working with model fuels happened to be with glow fuel. (As I stated the young man was severly burned.) I have been flying giant scale gassers now for almost 25 yrs and by no means am I saying that an accident can't occur using an electric pump for gasoline, it's just that I haven't witnessed any in that very long time. You probably have a better chance of getting seriously injured in an auto accident than getting hurt by an electric fueler setup. In that same amount of time I have personally witnessed dozens of serious auto accidents (some fatal) and that doesn't stop us from driving. Again, it is my humble opinion that one has a greater chance of getting whacked in traffic by a driver talking on a cell phone than by some freak accident using a battery powered fueling system.
Jezmo;
You cannot dispute the fact that gasoline evaporates at lower temps than alcohol, or? Every flammable liquid has a vapour pressure, which is a function of that liquid's temperature. As the temperature increases, the vapour pressure increases. As the vapour pressure increases, the concentration of evaporated flammable liquid in the air increases. Hence, temperature determines the concentration of evaporated flammable liquid in the air.
Each flammable liquid requires a different concentration of its vapour in air to sustain combustion. The flash point of a flammable liquid is the lowest temperature at which there can be enough flammable vapour to ignite, when an ignition source is applied. Gasoline is designed for use in an engine which is driven by a spark. The fuel should be premixed with air within its flammable limits and heated above its flash point, then ignited by the spark plug. The fuel should not preignite in the hot engine. Therefore, gasoline is required to have a low flash point and a high autoignition temperature. The autoignition temp for gasoline is 689°F, for ethanol it is 475°F. There is your proof that gasoline(vapor) ignites much sooner than alcohol (vapor).
I am truly unclear about what exactly you are arguing about. (I never disputed anything so not sure what that means.) If it's the danger from fueling gas powered planes with an electric pump then I still maintain that it is FAR more likely I'll have an accident with some driver with a cell phone glued to their ear. (This I did state and it is still my opinion. Nothing you can say will change my opinion on that.) It is my belief the facts bear this out considering that accidents happen EVERY day involving cell phones and VERY infrequently while fueling planes with an electric pump.

As I stated initially in this thread, I personally use a hand cranked pump but not because of any fear. I just don't want the hassle of keeping up with the charging of batteries. I help folks fuel their planes that have electric pumps and feel quite safe. I am NOT going to over react to what others perceive as a hazard. Each has his/her own opinion and I think we have stated ours. I will continue enjoying this sport as I have for 45+ years and hope that you do as well.
Old 09-19-2009, 08:46 AM
  #54  
idontknowyou
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: , VA
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: GAS Fuel Can

I'm currently using the no-spill fuel can. Try it.

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.