CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

I have this unit on my Mustang and i like to get it's ignition wire and plug cap replaced with out sending unit to CDI guys at this time.

Who others can do this for me locally as on CDI's website the are selling replacement Accel 5mm cable and plug caps separately also.

Would small engine shops or lawn mover shops be capable of replacing these 2 items for me....

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

What brand name is the ignition. ??

Milton

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

I think he's talking about S/S Machine's unit.

http://www.cncengines.com/rc.html

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Here is the unit presently on my Nosen P51B....It says "CD Electronic Ignition", its brown unit, address is hidden under kill servo that is glued on the unit....

You can see why i need to get this wire replaced, it's working but it's not in its better condition anymore.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

That's the CH one with it's zip code. Get in touch with Jody at Valley View R/C. Dan.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Yes, that's a CH Ignitions unit. The color of the box tells me it's a fixed timing box, has throttle coupled timing advance. I don't have that type ignition and the average Joe or saw shop cannot (should not) repair it. I can offer you a CH Ignition replacement that is auto advance but it will require minor engine modification. If you can do that yourself great but I'm not sure.

That ignition is repairable and if that's the route you want to go you need to contact Adrian <font size="2">@ [email protected]

Those ignitions are becoming more and more rare, they are the best ignitions made bar none, they warrant and deserve a little more thoughtful and careful use.

</font>

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Hi Jody,

What engine modification are you suggesting to do if i decided to get replacement unit from you.
Engine on my Nosen P51B is: Sach 4.2 70CC gas engine. It already have been once rebuilt some years go.


Sam

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

IF your interested, that ignition is over 20 years old. Maybe a replacement is in order.:D
If the case is pop riveted the coil is suspect too. It would be a paper wrapped Model Electric designed in the 30's[:@]

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

How about getting a little Zenoah coil, and using the circuitry of the CH unit? I bought one of the CH "circuit board only" and did that once...

Some of the older 16cc Echos had a similar small coil.

AV8TOR

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

AV8TOR,

I would have considered your suggestion only if i was good with electronic tinkering, i'm not so i'll leave it to guys in know/how do it for me.

Cheers,
Sam

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

AV8TOR,

I would have considered your suggestion only if i was good with electronic tinkering, i'm not so i'll leave it to guys in know/how do it for me.

Cheers,
Sam

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

You would need to able to set the timing withinstructions that come with the ignition andyou'd have to lock the timing/sensor ring into a fixed position that facilitates the correct timing setting. Then remove thetiming link rod from the belcrank, the belcrank stays forthe throttle.

To lock thetiming ring you would drill through ittowards the crankcase with a #43 drill bit, stop the drill just as it touches the case, tap the hole for a #4-40 socket headed cap screw that's about 1/8" longer than needed to reach the crankcase. The bottom of the hole will be void of threads because the tap has to stop at the case and can't go through, file thelast 1/8" - 1/4" of the set screw O.D.down a little so it will reach the crankcase without binding to tight and lock the ring in position. Ideally you would be able to pull the hub and timing ring off to perform the proceedure but it's not a requirement.

It doesn't matter if you get a replacement from me or another, if it's an auto advance unit the above procedure would be necessary. If you want to replace it with another fixed timing unit give the email address I posted for youa yank and leave the sensor ring as is.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Jody,

I would do it if i had the equipment to do this mod myself, i guess i will now have to send ignition system to Adrian so cable and plug cap could be replaced...

I will contact him tomorrow and see what he says about how to ship it to him and charges inclusive...


Sam

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

I'm sure Adrian will take good care of you.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Wasn't Ralph getting some 0* curve boxes from RCXL?? I thought I remember him talking about being able to still get them from Xu Lang(sp)..

Rick

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

These guys can fix you right up with a kit to update. Or you can send it to them. I dont think they are that far from you.

http://www.bj-model-engines.com/home.html

I have an old 3.2 with that same ignition Im about to send in to them to update.

WBG

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

WarbirdGuy, let see what Adrian quotes me and then i will email guys in ur link. Mind you they didn't mention a thing about dealing with Ignition systems on the website...

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

The old brown box ignitions are just that, very old and should be replaced. 10 years or more. Even if you repair the cap and wire the odds are that ignition won't last much longer, if it continues to work at all.

You could replace with another fixed advance position or replace with an auto advance. The auto advance only requires the engine have the sensor locked in a 28* BTDC position relative to the hub magnet. A hole or two is drilled in the timing ring and threaded to accept a set screw. The set screw locks the ring in place at the 28* position. Plug in the ignition and fly. The instructions that Jody would provide are quite explanatory and simple to accomplish, If you can read and use an electric drill you can handle the operation.

To re-use the old, old ignition puts that Nosen at risk when it fails. It will fail. Electrical components have an aging factor that should not be ignored.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Not true, Im still running same CH ignition on my 3.2. Most failures were due to the magnet coming out of the hub and hitting the pickup. Then, most got smart and put the magnet in the hub paralell to the crankshaft and the pick up behind the hub instead of around it :) If mine goes out, I will have it updated.


Props4ever, I know they dont list the components, but, when I inquired about doing some repairs on my engine, I asked them about updating it to newer ignition. He said he could do it with no problems.

Im putting my 3.2 on another airplane this week. Weather finally broke here and it is beautiful outside :)

WBG

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

If you say so. After a few thousand CH and CH style ignitions I doubt I've learned anything about them yet. Or how long coils last.

We'll go with your recommendation.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

How can i find if my engine has advance timing on it, the reason is both companies i emailed came back with option to get newer ignition system with advance timing capability.....

Looks like cost or shipping n repairs will come very close to cost of getting newer type ignition system, if i can find if my engine is capable of hooking up to advance timing system then i'll get that instead.

But pulling out engine from this plane is big job n i don't know how it's mounted in as there are screws going in from sides of the fuselage also, so pls don't ask me to do this....

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

if you have an engine that has linkage that runs from the carb to the timing ring, you have a mechanical advance ignition. If you do not have linkage, you have either a fixed or auto advance. The old brown box ignitions were usually mechanical advance.

I doubt the engine would have to come out of the plane. If there is access to the rear edge of the prop prop hub you probably have plenty of working room to make a change to an auto advance.

ALL engines are capable of adapting to auto advance ignitions. Some are just harder than others. Your Sachs likely has some type of Delrin (plastic/nylon) timing ring just over and behind the prop hub. That contains the hall sensor which would only need fixed in a non-movable position after establishing the advance to convert to auto advance. It really is quite simple but often sounds difficult. The only real issue is getting people to try something they have not done before. I did an ignition/sensor /timing change at a flying field for a kid last weekend. The only requirement to get the job done was a little time and a few small hand tools.

A pic of what you have would be most enlightening and permit further discussion for your assistance.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

This video will help you set the timing. Dan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBXFpxWg7vY

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Doesn't anyone still make an ignition without the auto advance?
I have a G-62 with mechanical advance that rcing set up for me about 5 years ago

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Not really.

DA and 3w screwed the pooch for everyone when they started promoting auto advance ignitions as "higher performance" and "better" than mechanical advance. Doesn't matter they were dead wrong, people bought them, and in doing so forced those making a better product to go backwards and start making auto advance instead. There was a period where if you had a mechanical advance ignition you could not sell it. Come to think of it, if you advertised an engine with a mechanical advance now you would have a pretty quiet mail box.

Same pair started the "superior" multi bolt prop hubs for the same reason. Sales gimmick. Sooooooooo many people still fall for them it's sickening. They'll even try to debate about how much better or safer they are with some late, great super widget. I can name 5 off the top of my head, but the loyal users would get pretty bent out of shape.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

[:D
My mechanical advance was and still is the best method for spark control...
There is a hub mounted on the tapered end of the crank..The hub has an extension on the back side that has a ball bearing pressed on to it..The ball bearing has an aluminum ring with a sensor expxied into it, pressed on the the O D of the bearing...There is a DuBro ball mounted on the periphery of the aluminum sensor ring with a link to the rotated carb shaft that advances the spark when the throttle is opened...Simple, cheap, and linear...
This requires the carb to be rotated so that the throttle shaft is parallel to the cylinder to make connection to the throttle a straight line...Also easy...
The carb insulator is made from 3/8 G10 epoxy board...Simple, cheap, and insulates the carb from heat...
Only problem with this setup is the user..If the throttle is opened too far for starting the engine kicks back...It's impossible if the throttle is set just above idle, 2 degrees BTDC won't hurt anyone. the piston is already past TDC when the engine fires...
It weighs only a few ounces, the weight of a thin ball bearing...But since the G62 is an overweight underpowered boat anchor most flyers took the advice of some so called expert on a forum there were not enough G 62s sold to make it worthwhile...None of my good customers ever complained about the mechanical advance...It was used on all manner of conversions for many years, but when Bill got the syncro spark circuit from Ed Vollmer he had an exclusive on EI for a few years, then it became easier to just put a syncro on the engines...Easier to just connect a circuit board in series with the ignition and forget the extra machining required....
:eek:
My conversions started in 1987 ;)

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Here are pics of my engine, it sure looks as mechanical advance but i'm not expert of these engines so ur advise will be taken.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

That's a mechanical advance set up. Good stuff, if Adrian will make you up a fixed timing unit thats what I would use if it were mine.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

And if not, you have great access and it's an easy modification to get to an auto advance arrangement. Just drill a vertical hole in the white ring that will tap to 6-32 or 8-32 for a set screw, determine 28* btdc, and lock it down. Remove the coupling linkage, plug in the ignition, and go fly.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Jody,

How is fixed timing unit differ from what i have on me?....

How differ one works from other, pls explain a bit...

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Can u pls illiterate how to do this by using my pictures, also if you can make arrows on each part with there names, it will be easy for me to know what part is what ie: coupling linkage, plus how to lock it down etc etc...

Thanks in advance.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Working it.

Yellow arrow is hall sensor in current location.
Red arrow is the timing ring.
Blue arrow is the coupling linkage.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

There are two different types of EI modules, one has a fixed sensor position and the module automatically advances and retards ignition timing based on engine RPM. The module computes engine RPMfromthe dwell duration (time)that the sensor "sees" the magnet in the hub during each revolution of the crankshaft.Timing isadvanced in increments at multiple points along the RPM band between about 2000 and 4000 RPM. The more points or steps a module has in it's timing curve the better and smoother the throttle response will be. There areno moving parts, this is the most common version and most modern, not necessarily the best.

Yours, a fixed timing ignition module does no computing, it just throws a spark every time the magnet passes the sensor. The sensor is linked to the throttle linkage and is moved to advance the timing as the throttle is advanced, timing is retarded as the throttle is retarded. Because it's coupled mechanically in this way, the ignition advance is perfectly linear AND it's tune-able if you know what you're doing and have certain needs/desires.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

I have to agree with Tired Old Man on the auto sensor arrangement. It was a gimmic. It appears on the outside to clean up the engine and therefore, gives the illusion of being better. Let me explain my point. I am in the marine repair industry. Have been since the late sixties. When outboards left the old points and cond. ignition, they went into various kinds or electronic. They finally settled in on basically the same igniton as the CH mechanical timing. Various ways of sensing when to spark, but the same. They All still use the same method of advancing the timing. A mechanical arm advances the timmer base ( the ring under the flywheel that holds the pickup sensor/sensors). If those guys, and I mean all makes, thougth it was a good idea for all those years, then Im pretty sure its about the best thing out there. Now, I think some of the PWC's use an auto advance and they seem to have prolems all the time. I wont even work on them anymore.

Now, Tired Old Man, you say you have dealt with thousands of CH and CH type ignitions, well, so have I :) And, I have had several CH ignition equipted engines, Walker 4.2, Walker 2.4, Brison 4.2 and a Brison 3.2 All had mechanical advance. The first Walker 4.2 I had did what I explained before about the magnet coming loose because it was pointing outward and the glue let loose and flung the magnet out into the timing ring which rung off all the wires from the sensor and wraped them around the engine :) This was on the second flight of a new engine. I sent it back and they send me a new engine with the magnet and timing ring changed to like I explained in an earlier post. No more problems. I have changed 2 hall effect sensors on the other engines over the years.

Now, one more note. Mercury Marine had an issue with one of their designs on a "trigger" the sensor that picked up the firing pulse. The circuitry that controlled it was prone to fail and when it did, it would let the timing run away on top end and detonate #3 piston. Melt the top right off the piston. That is my main concern with auto timing. Do they have a redundant system built in to keep this from happening? I dont know. I would think so, but when its automatic, how do you know what the module is thinking :)

I prefer to use mechanical myself. I thought of changing over, but as long as it works, I think Ill just keep it as it is until Im forced to change.

Thats my manifesto for today LOL

WBG

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

I want to get a fixed point CD and make my next ignition advance with carb linkage...seems like the best way to go....Period! Capt,n

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

WBG,

My intent was not to say that CH was not a good unit. Far from it because I have been a proponent for CH Ignitions, the best RC ignition on the planet, for many years. I was once involved in a process that proved that. More on that subject I cannot say.

CH ignitions last longer than any other, and have a far reduced in frequency of failure than any other. Unfortunately nothing electronic lasts forever, and even the best ignition coils have a finite life span. Older design coils have a shorter life cycle than newer. The later CH units can easily last well over a thousand hours of use with minimal care. Only the installation needs to be correct with the avoidance of impacting the ground for that to happen. The people that have maintained 5 volts or less to their CH ignitions would have a tremendous unit. Those using 6 volts or more would have a tremendous unit with a somewhat shorter lifespan. You just can't get better that a real CH ignition.

However, as mentioned earlier, nothing lasts forever and even CH has suggested replacing the old brown box units before they fail. Clearly the one in this thread has experienced some abuse, which does indeed impact the life of the electrical components. TKG made that recommendation in this thread. TKG is Terry Grant, one of the two people that were CH while they remianed in business. The second is Bill Carpenter. I was advised by one of the two a long time ago what the anticipated lifespan of the brown box units were and this one is well outside of that time frame. I have two of the old brown box units in permanent retirement at my shop.

I'm all for saving money, especially where conditions make sense for that to happen. But I have problems in trying to skimp in areas that could end up costing far more than the cost of even the most expensive component. As already noted, the cost to repair the unit of interest in this thread is close to the cost of a new unit, rendering comparative $$ savings virtually nil. That a new ignition, made to the exact specifications of the CH design, instead of a Chinese shortcut copy, can be obtained at nearly the same price as a repair provides a decision process one that is quite easy to make.

A warbird is heavily dependant on keeping the engine running because of weight, wing area, and wing loading. The old Nosen kits came in pretty heavy and typically need to be flown with a relatively high power loading all the time. You want to keep the engine running and minimize the number of potential failure points. If it was mine I would install a new CH with much newer/modern electronics and anticipate many more years of reliable use. But that is, of course, a matter of personal choice.

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Juss an quick update:

I'm trying to find sometime to talk to Adrian about this issue, after that i will make my final decision. Keep u all posted.


Sam

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Jodi,

Just talked to Adrian about sending in my ign unit for repairs, he was at Reno races when a P-51D crashed into VIP stands!...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzvro_u73xM[/youtube]

RE: CD Ignition wire replacement.
 

Yes, I heard and saw the videos earlier today. Sad day, prayers and condolences to all involved at the Reno races today.