Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

I started using gas engines last year. I have also noticed that the use of a radio operated engine kill device seems to be a must. This of course was not normally available on glow. My question is since many use a servo on the choke , why would a remote kill switch be needed? Just flip on the choke and the engine is off. $40.00 and an extra device saved. Am I missing something?

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

The advantage is if you lose signal to the receiver or lose voltage to the receiver it will kill the engine.


But if you have fail safe set up right it will do the same thing unless you lose voltage.

Also if the transmitter is turned off you will not have voltage to the ignition even if the switch is turned on.


Milton

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

This is like one of those which oil is best type msg threads.[&:]

Both a mechanical and a electrical style eng kill can fail, neither is the do all - be all - best way.
Throttle linkages can & do fail, as well as electrical ign kills can fail.

I use a combo approach of having a good throttle linkage setup (I hope doesn't fail/fall off) plus an ign kill.
That way I'm covered on both. If one of my gassers has a linkage issue in taxing/pits/flying, a
quick & simple flip of a tx switch and it's dead right now![sm=thumbs_up.gif]

For those 'search challenged' here's just two links (out of 15+ pages) to this already beat up subject;

Emergency Engine Kill... Choke Servo or Opto-Ignition Kill from Transmitter
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10...m.htm#10729045

the reason to install a kill switch
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10...m.htm#10130342

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

Darn
Where's "Pat" when we need him. :D

Now to answer the OP

Lets look at what the majority of fliers were using 5 years ago.
Glow engines - with one control - the throttle
Simple radio installs (mostly PCM) with basic battery systems (Usually Ni xx Technology)

Wow - we must have been killing a lot of people at the field in those days - very little 2.4, no optokills, no chokes etc. No wonder our insurances are so high :)

Why do we want to use a remote kill now?
The main reason people use them is because they can (as they are available) and because it gives them a warm fuzzy feeling.

A choke servo is a good thing to use for a kill in an emergency - as long as you have power and radio link to operate it (or failsafe set to operate it in the case of a loss of radio link). however Many use manual chokes these days.

An optical kill is similar comments to the above except that the loss of power will also cause it to operate - as long as it is in good condition and has been set up right (I have seen them fail on a number of ocassions - including some that allowed the ignition to stay active).

The best insurance for not needing either to shut the engine down?

A good quality installation and good condition equipment.
Use good quality equipment
Set the throttle so it wil in fact shut the engine down completely - test it regularly as they can wear and not to that job.
Use good condition battery packs.
Use good condition electrical connectors
Use a proven method of enigne mounting and throtle linkage.

When was the last time you actually saw a plane lose electrical power in the air when it wasn't caused by "owner error" ?

Yes - some of my planes do in fact have optokills (I use the smarfly units exclusively nowadays) ALL of my planes will shut down on the throttle and ALL of my planes have the failsafe set to shut the engine down on throttle (as wel as on optokill and / or choke if fitted).

Have I ever used one in flight? - Yep - the reason? I was getting glitching and killed the engine for safety reasons as there was quite a crowd at the airfield - the reason for the glitching? - User error (spark plug cap not properly installed).

So to answer the OP's last line

No - you are not missing anything at all.

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

Some people say potato and some people say patato. :)

Milton

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

nothing is fool proof.....but provided you have a robust throttle linkage(ball link to ball link) with no binding and you have strong arms on both sides, everything mounted securely you can suffice with that......thats the way i have been doing it lately...

however when i first started out i wanted every last bit of RPM and i would throw the servo into "overload" and cause it to bind, thus killing the servo prematurely...when in reality no performance (rpmwise) is gained after the throttle flap/valve/plate is opened past 80%.... now i adjsust my throttle servo accordingly and i get a more linear response, where i can differentiate between half throttle 3/4 throttle and full throttle,,,,, where before i really couldnt

one time i had a thin 1/16th pice of aluminum i salvaged from a custom computer case...the throttle arm i made "cracked" due to fatigue, thank God i had a choke servo..... rather than flying till i ran out of gas i choked it at the right momen and landed safely....... another time when i was young and dumb i didnt secure the throttle arm servo screw(i also removed the throttle return spring, a BIG NO NO), and had to rely on a 42% ignition kill activated by a vacant channel... it worked... ive also had an experience with a previous 42% ign kill that caused my engine to run erratic....once removed the engine ran as expected..... ive also had a throttle servo dismount yielding a truely unexpected dead stick, thankfully i took my plane home unharmed

summary... if your thottle servo is of higher quality, and have zero binding(can be confirmed with http://hangar-9.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=HAN172) and the servo mounted to a servo box, and the box is glued and screwed you have a lower chance of having to rely on a secondary backup to kill your engine..... if you want it all do the previous ,plus install a choke servo, and an opto ign kill, and have 3way security

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

I'm with Milton. Pat, while a wealth of knowlege, is still listening to his 8 track on the way to the field :D

Opto-kills, and manual chokes on all my gassers.

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

+1!

for the 8 track comment.......

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

Hmmm, Why do we need it....?<div>
</div><div>Because when a 50cc PilotYak 54 comes screaming out of the air  at wide open throttle and the pilot has no radio link to the plane even if the battery failed and fail safe could not work the Opto kill would have prevented it crashing into the pit area with the prop still spinning. It would simply have floated out of the sky. Instead its paper mache.</div><div>
</div><div>I simply demand a kill system on my planes that is independent of the Radio system. If an opto kill sees the voltage drop to low on the Rx it kills the engine. Its the last thing it does before being destroyed with the rest of the plane. Opto is my friend.</div><div>Now if only my club buddy had one installed.</div><div>Instead he had a single Rx battery and ran the Ign off an IBEC.</div><div>He lost the radio link but the IGN was still seeing power so it remained at the last setting, WOT.</div><div>
</div><div>Clearly there were other safety mechanisms not armed. But an Opto Kill is so easy so if the other more creative mechanisms are not in ones head space then an Opto Kill is nearly fool proof</div><div>
</div><div>Yeah maybe I'm paranoid but I'd rather have a means to shut down the engien that have to fork out millions in personal liability and cosmetic surgery for the victims of an accident</div>

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

I'm surprised that the IBEC didn't kill the ignition when no valid signal from the receiver was present, or was the receiver failsafe also not set to kill the ignition? With an opto kill, or IBEC of any kind, if the receiver goes into failsafe, but that channel is set to "hold last good position" you're screwed:(
I do like the fact that with an IBEC, if you actually lose power to the receiver, the engine will quit without a doubt. This is the one scenario where receiver failsafes won't kick in, and even a throttle return spring will probably not be able to drive the servo to the idle position.
For my money, a good throttle setup is always a top priority, as MetallicaJunkie put it so well. Follow that up with making sure your receiver failsafes are correctly set, and use an opto kill or IBEC to be able to kill the motor via the radio. Nothing is ever fool proof, but I think that these three items will go a long way to covering all the bases.
Pete

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

So under these requirement's, throttle cut-choke cut-optokill. What am I to do with my Saito twin 300 turning a 18x10 @8000rpm, when the throttle's stuck wide open, for whatever reason.It don't have an ignition or choke.   lollollolLOL

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

Since this msg thread is to do with those that do use ign kill/switch/choke's, then I'd say your in the wrong boat!:D:)[8D]

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

+1
Good plan!

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

Long and short of it is no, it's not needed or required but, lots of people feel better having them. Your choice.

I use a choke servo, the people I fly with use a choke servo and no one has had issues as of yet. Doesn't mean it won't happen.

Guess it's like buying parts from Hobby King?

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

Hmmmm, I'm NO fan of carrying around extra dead weight (choke servo), but just for this one time I'll say such is BETTER than HK![8D]
HK=[:'(]

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

I must have misread the OP

I can't see anywhere that it mentions only being to do with those that do use ignition kills etc. Perhaps someone should get their heads out of that dark orifice and read it also - to save any hassle of that person needing to look it up (probably doesn't know how to actually use a PC anyway) - here is the OP.



acerc is in fact 100% correct.


And how many of you "must have it or the world will end" posters out there ran glow or even electric before gassers? - how many electrics have you seen go to full throttle - uncommanded - due to electronic failure? (I have plenty of scars on my hands fmo exactly that happening - 120 stitches later it healed.)

I wish every newbie flyer out there used gassers in their trainers because then we could use optokills in them - how many have seen a pilot in training lose a plane either because of flying inexperience or building inexperience?

Come to think of it - those pesky 3D flyers and heli guys should also have to have them so we can remotely operate them for them in the case of them losing control of their machines and injuring someone (possibly themselves). [:-]

For the example given by Timble of his buddys plane losing link - even an Optokill would have doen nothing - in fact he actually had one on board as part of the IBEC and it did nothing due to other issues (such as the failsafe not being set). Loss of radio link alone does not automatically kill an engine on any of the radio linked kill methods (whther they be optokill, IBEC, Choke or microswitch) unless the RX gives a signal for it to happen.

Do I run them in some of my planes? - yes
Have I seen an optikill fail and NOT do their job? - Yes (It is why I use only one specific brand as I have seen major failures in the other two popular brands)

Are they NEEDED? (that is in fact the key word in the OP) - NO.

Do they keep some peoples pantiess dry from worrying? - yes.

I think a better safety system would be for every plane to have 2 receivers and 2 pilots able to fully and independently operate it (not via buddy box - completely independent). That way, in the event of something going wrong, the copilot and backup system can take over. you never know - a pilot could have a heart attack or stroke out there on the flight line (it probably happens more ofthen that needing an optokill in fact).

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

I'm a choke servo guy and it has saved me a few times! I have had to choke planes that have had the muffler come loose and not idle down low enough to land safely. An opti-kill would just be one more link in the electrical chain that could fail and leave me dead in the air at the wrong time and or place! I like to impress people with one flip starts that would not be possible without a choke servo. I flip the prop with the left hand and open the choke switch on the transmitter with the right hand!

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

Do the younger gen know what is a 8 track?

2+

only feels like only yesterday when I was fixing them. Thats 30 years ago! no wounder I have grey hair:D

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

30 years? I think it is more like 35 to 40 years ago! We were deep into the cassette era in '82. The cd also made it's debut in '82. If we could only put time in a bottle!

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

You certainly did!

I didn't state "only" but included all 3 so SOME people don't get upset & feel left out.:(

Nice try but feeble at best. Did Patrick send you a script?[:'(]

Ignition kills required? NO!

Desired by some? Yes![sm=thumbs_up.gif]

Choke servos the ONLY way? No!

Ign kills the ONLY way? No!

Only a few ill informed get their panties in a bind and take these discussions as "must have" where most see this as what it is, a simple discussion on why some CHOOSE to use them.

It's a CHOICE, nothing more.

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

You're probably right or at least closer to 40 years ago. Not unusual to have many an 8 track cassette 'eat' a tape! More often in the Winter cold!
Many such units were bolted to the underside of STEEL dash's! Ahhh CCR.<g>

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

Thanks pcfixer for the always welcome search insult. Actually your correct. I didn't know this was such a beat up subject until after I posted the question. For all the posts actually the question was answered when it was pointed out that if signal was lost the kill switch would turn off the ignition. Baddazzmaxx said "The advantage is if you lose signal to the receiver or lose voltage to the receiver it will kill the engine." This was all I was looking for. A point I was not aware of. aussiesteve also bring up good points with solid equipment,set up and properly set up failsafe. Please let it die now. Thanks to all .

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

1 page and you are sick of this topic... wait till it hits 30 or 40..

Two things about gas ignition kill switches.
1.) you're a darn stupid nincompoop for not using one.
2.) you're a darn stupid nincompoop for using one.

Take your pick.. I use one for the ability to kill a runaway engine, such as one time last summer when a muffler bolt fell off the plane... I could not slow down enough to land. I lined up for final, almost on the ground and killed the engine. Perfect result.

I use the kill switch each and every time to kill the engine after taxi'ng back then turn off the manual switch. I also have a choke switch, but that is not fool proof in killing engine in cold weather and you may flood engine in warm weather.
.
I am sure I said something wrong, so go for it.

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

Heck no - don't let it die.

There is still time to turn it into a thread about

Which oil
Which Engine brand
Which brand of PC (do many actually even fix them any more?)
Which Exhaust system
Which brand of tow vehicle

Or my personal favorite

Barbecue sauce - which is best?

My answers are
Mobil 2T Synthetic at 40:1 because of ready availability and it is very good, HP PC's because I have a corporate deal that includes the repairs that have nto been needed to date during the entire 5 years of that deal, MTW, K&S and Planebender because they have the products I need, I use a Ford Van but an am about to upgrade to a VW Transporter Long Wheel Base and I make my own Barbecue sauces because the choices here are extremely limited.

:D

RE: Remote engine kill - Switch or Choke
 

Jim, I'm in the right boat. I have had all three method's plus an appropriate throttle set-up plus fail safe. And have never used anything other than throttle trim to shut down after landing. You took that the wrong way. It was meant as sarcasm. On nitro we don't have any mean's outside of failsafe, if turned on and only under certain circumstances. And such larger engine's as with the radial's the issue's are compareable (prop wise) to gas. Of course the little one's can do as much damage when not handled safely.  Point is only a throttle servo is required to operate an engine, you know what I mean by only. Everything else is an option.