RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

The 3mm was given for me to try and later return after completing my assessment. I have the option of purchasing it at discount if I decide it's an engine I would want to keep. So far it's looking good. My only wish is that all the multi bolt hub manufacturers would use the same bolt pattern[:@] Every time I go to try a different prop I have to get 3 or 4 of them so I can drill the different patterns...

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

I see. So its ok for you to get free products and post on RCU, but when I post on RCU about products and companies I bought from(not given, payed for), I get booted out by the moderators. i also know who you are getting these products from. i will bet you money no one will ever see this very post. whatya think moderators? is there something wrong with this picture or have i just got it all wrong.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

If you had a Brillilli, you wouldn't have to worry about that either. Props are completely reuseable.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

I own a T-52 and I can happily say that it's the best motor that I have. Bill (the owner) is a great guy to work with. If you've sent your engine back three times, maybe you should listen to him about the problem. My guess is that it's an operator problem not a problem with the motor.

I did a lot of research before I bought. At the time there was only one negitive comment on RCU about the Tarus and that was someone who purchased the motor second hand and Bill went out of his way to make him a happy camper.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Tarus, it's a great motor.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

Think you have it wrong... seen you spam your buddy's shop many times sometimes in unrelated threads and more recently about a plane that isn't even shipping yet or has no history.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

"hvac"

"I see. So its ok for you to get free products and post on RCU, but when I post on RCU about products and companies I bought from(not given, payed for), I get booted out by the moderators. i also know who you are getting these products from. i will bet you money no one will ever see this very post. whatya think moderators? is there something wrong with this picture or have i just got it all wrong."

I was wondering where you were going. I copied and pasted your post in an attempt to assure it remained to be seen by all.

I see no reason for your rancor. I both purchase and am provided products from one manufacturer. A couple of manufacturers have felt generous and given me a few free decals/graphics that promote their name over the years. Perhaps the difference between you and I is that I give both the good and the bad about any given product. If there's bad I look to provide a method for the customer that has one to correct or overcome the issue.

With the 3mm-53, I would have never considered buying one since I already own (all paid for at full price BTW) three of the best 50cc engines ever made. I had and have no need of a fourth. The plane I would have bought in any case since every plane I've had from this manufacturer (for the record Wild Hare) has always performed to or exceeded expectations and have been high quality products. Plus the prices are lower than everyone elses no matter how you try to qualify them. I don't believe it's any secret that I road test Wild Hare products and write about them. At one time I was listed as a company rep for W/H, which I later had to give up because of my occupation. That should come as no surprise to anyone. I've written about Fromeco, JR, SWB, Troy Built, Don's Hobby Shop, Taurus, BME, Brison, RCBlimpro, RC Ignitions, CH Electronics, and many others as well with no post ever having been removed. Also Dawghouse R/C...more to come on this one.

There are far too many people in these forums that buy or are given a product, test them, and write about them with no recourse from the moderators for you to be able to maintain your position unless there is something else that provides reason for a post to be stricken. Just take a look at the DL and Brillelli threads. Both are well over 30 pages each by now, all posted by owners of the engines or those seeking answers to questions prior to making a purchase. The BME 115 tuning thread is another.

Now unless I'm mistaken, you, HVAC, are also known as Dawghouse R/C, and I believe the moderators are also aware of that. You tipped me off by calling the engine a TOC-53. You've been helped by a few people get your products and prices posted here on RCU without benefit of advertising dollars going to RCU. I'm pretty sure that's why your posts may be stricken. Had you followed up your initial free exposure with an approach to the the owners of RCU about spending a few advertising bucks the results would likely been far different. Even giving a free plane to RCU for a review would have gone far for you. There's no such thing as something for nothing in business.

Wild Hare, like many other manufacturers and distributors, pays to advertise and maintain a forum on RCU, where Dawghouse does not. RCU is a business just like you are and they seek to make money on the space they provide. Should another business try and gain free advertising space where someone else is paying for such space I can understand where those paying for the space may become a bit perturbed. You still have to spend money to make even more money. All you have to do is determine how much you can afford for an advertising budget and decide where that budget will best target your market audience. Business 101.

Now I welcome a moderator to enter at this point and air their views on the subject. I have a pretty solid hunch I'm on the money, and it's all about the money. Sorry to get so off the thread track.

Pat

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

lol :eek: yes because of all the gas engines I have played with.. this one requires special treatment. #1 It wasn't my first gas engine.. have played with many.. #2 My buddy has been flying for 25+ years and mostly GS Gassers. Maybe you should stop making "guesses" that aren't even relevant :eek:

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

I can assure everyone that Pat (Silversurfer) is NOT a schill for ANY company

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

Josey - it's "shill", but spelled any way you WANT to..... Pat is NOT one of 'em.

It is amazing how far from the topic this thread has wandered because the original poster didn't like the answers he was being given.

Personally - I think it is a requirement by RCU that "business affiliations" be posted in the signatures. I may be wrong, but if someone has some business connection with a vendor, manufacturer or distributor, I think it is *required* that the user reveal that relationship.

If it IS NOT required, then I want to suggest it right here and now.

Oh yeah - back to "Is the Taurus a good value?" ---- As has been posted several times ---- it depends on who you are asking. I think it's a great value. But a little pricey. So less "value" than others that work maybe sort of kinda like they work but cost less.

See - "value" depends on the respondent!!!!!!!!!

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

I've had my Taurus for about a year and a half, in that time I have put about 15 gallons conservatively through that engine. It was my first gas engine, I called Bill before I bought it and asked him a few questions, (I have only called two RC companies ever, Bill at Taurus, and the clowns at Hitec) Bill answered all of my questions, took all the time needed, and spoke to me as long as I desired. I ordered the engine from him and then emailed him several times asking for setup advice/standards to which he replied to every single one AND offered to call me on HIS DIME to answer any more I may have had. I don't know about you but that is service. Now his turn around time may be slow, but if I understand his situation right he's pretty much a one man show. If he's answering the phone all the time (which he himself answered the phone all three times I called) providing that additional phone support service, selling engine, building engines, and running the service dept, then I think I can understand WHY his turn around time is slow.

On to the performance of the engine, the only problem I've ever had with it was when I had a loose connection on the ignition battery. It took me a while to find it but I eventually did and as soon as it was corrected problem was solved. When the engine arrived from Bill, he told me "mount it on the plane and fly it out of the box" which was exactly what I did and it flew great. Over time I've leaned out the needles as it broke in and that was pretty much it! I have this engine on a H9 Extra 260, it's a smallish plane for a 50cc motor, I had it out on flight number 587 (just kidding I have no idea what number it is) and when flipping the prop over it has so much compression the main wheels were lifting off the ground. I haven't put a tach on it in a long time, I don't need to, it's a rocket ship, runs smooth, starts easily (EVERY TIME), incredible idle, just a great engine.

People notice this engine at the field, it always gets a compliment, people always ask about it, I'm always happy to explain my experience with it. Was it worth it, would I buy another, you bet I would. I just can't imagine how it could get any easier.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

There is no way you can make a statement like that. You have no idea who I am, what I am or what kind of problems I have had with my engine. Save your "guesses" for the lottery numbers.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

Camss69,

My experiences pretty much mirror yours. The people at my company suddenly looked up and started asking what engine that was when they saw and heard it fly. The chief test pilot was amazed, and this from people that have used literally a thousand engines or more in our operation, of every type and size.

Bill and I have conversed over the phone many times and at all hours. Never has there been an issue with the length of discussion. Perhaps that's because I have one of his products and that we speak the same language. I really don't know but I can't understand where someone would have a personal issue with him. If his service is a little slow for me it's no big deal. I figure that whenever I have to send anything in to anyone it will be a minimum of two weeks or a little more before I see it again anyway. There have been a couple that surprised me and returned it sooner but those are exceptions and not the rule.

Then again, it's rare that I send anything in that I wasn't responsible for breaking in the first place. If it hadn't hit the ground there would not have been need for service. I suppose I could be like some in various areas that want to blame someone else for their mistakes, but that's not the way I do things. I have seen no need for any type of service with my Taurus. That includes the minor issue when it arrived with the timing being a little off. Easy to fix, and I did in about 15 minutes, but Bill offered to put another engine in the mail to me the same day I told him about it and to simply return the one I had after the new one arrived. I declined because there was no need for the expense or hassle.

Is the price higher than the new Chinese clones? Sure it is. Then again, the case and crank are mae in America with American labor. The cylinder, piston, and rods are German, with bearings from I don't know where. The case is machined and not cast, has a very nice radial mount with a case option of rail mounts. We don't pay our help here in America what they do theirs in China. I hope to God we never do. Is the quality better than the Chinese clones? I believe the visual quality and overall performance says that indeed it is.

Is it worth the extra money? That's like asking if a Mercedes is worth more than a Kia. It sure as heck is. Bottom line is that if you're running a tight budget and/or borderline not being able to afford flying a giant and purchasing what's needed to do so then you have a few of choices to select from. Buy the cheaper products and hope that the long term performance holds up to your expectations. Save your money until you can afford to step up, or eliminate giant scale and it's products from your venue. American manufacturers cannot compete with subsidized Chines labor along with an artificially inflated currency. Why would anyone one want to? You still have to feed yourself at the end of the day and with what the Chinese pay their help you'd starve to death on a month's wages.

If anyone is really interested in the cost of Chinese engines they should ask their dealers what THEY paid for them. Often well under $100.00, with some under $50.00. Now go complain to your local Chinese engine dealer that HE'S charging you too much. You want to know how little the ignitions go for? Naw, I'm not going to tell you because you tight fisted cheapskates would get really mad over the high profit margin. Sheesh!

Now that I've shot the Chinese engine dealers in the foot I'm outa this one. I've gotten too riled up over everybody's champagne taste and Kool Aid budgets. So many want to but can't afford too and try to make it everyone else's fault that they don't have the price of admission.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

You say all this... but yet you are a firm supporter of BME... rememver the BME 50? How much did Keith sell that for? Funny how now you can find basically the same engine from Brillelli with some slight mods and get it with muffler and standoffs for a lot less than it was sold for and that was just the engine.

How much do you really think a BME 115 costs? or a DA 100

Everyone is trying to make money in the hobby.. just some more than others.


You opened this whole thread (one of the first posts you made) with saying you didn't believe any engine in this class was worth more than $400... and end it will an obviously frustarted response that doesn't quite add up with your orig. post.. kind of doesn't quite make sense to me.


I can buy an engine for a car for under $1500.. yet for some reason this hobby has engines that cost over 1000 :(

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

I will also say.. that you comment how you can talk to Bill at Taurus for extended periods of time... yet the person from thsi thread without prompting called to ask questions and shortly into the conversation was asked whether he was going to place an order or not.

I think maybe you forget that you are very active in these forums and known to be outspoken and share lots of comments about your experience both personally and professionally and that may indirectly give you better response or CS then others get.

I have great respect for you and your knowledge... but when you start making comments like that is something you can fix yourself or whatever along that lines it's frustrating for a couple of reasons... I fix computers for a living and have been for 18 yrs. There are many things that are easy for me and hard for others... same goes for any industry people are in.. you happen to be in the R/C / UAV industry and sometimes I think you forget much like when someone wants to reformat a computer and I am like.. oh thats easy do this this and that.. . that backup these folders, rebuild this and install these latest and greatest drivers to many that is greek or some unknown language to me it's second nature.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

Synergy,

I'm still of the opinion that none of the 50cc engines are worth what we pay for them. On any scale, from American to Chinese produced. As for the BME 50, I never had one so I don't know what it would compare with in a "cloned" version. I'm familiar with the 44 and truthfully it was over priced as well. Pricing in this hobby goes the same route golf, hunting, fishing, and some other basically simple sports go. Grossly over priced. It's always been that way I'm afraid. The usual rule in manufacturing is to market a product for a minimum of 5 times your production costs. In some American cases I think that's a close ratio. Then again, if I was to sell 200 or 300 engines and only make $100.00 on each one I don't think I'd bother with the effort. By the time I factored in all the varied operations involved with a sale it would likely be a loss and not a profit.

As for the guy that started this thread, I believe he was simply singing the blues because he could not afford the engine he really wanted and could not cut a special price deal. I don't believe it was about comparative values. He was mad because he could not have what he wanted because he could not afford it.

When I first started talking with Bill one of the questions he asked me early in the conversation was if I was considering buying one of his engines. My answer was yes, so perhaps that influenced the direction our talks have taken since then. I would have asked the same thing if I was doing the selling, regardless of the product or usage. Most distributors and manufacturers don't know me from Adam when I call them up. They may know the name Silversurfer but they don't know my last name. How many Pat's are ther in this hobby? After the business relationship is established some things may be shared but that's not an assurance. I know for certain that DA, Cactus, Don's Hobby Shop, Troy Built, MSC, Bisson, and A.I. don't have a clue who I am and I converse and order from them all.

We all know that how we approach someone on the phone deeply effects how the balance of the conversation may go. Neither one of us was there when the individual called Bill so we don't know how he posed questions to him. It may well be that he was as abrasive as I've been in my last two posts. That would have had a strong impact. Something else that should be considered, and almost never is, is the fact that as people become older they tend to have less time for just about anything. At 55 I have far less patience with some things than I did at 45. If I was 80 and every moment was precious I might tend to be "quicker" still. Depends on how much is on the plate in front of me at the time.

I just get bugged by so many people that got into this hobby knowing in the beginning it was not a cheap one then complain everytime they buy something. If they have that big of a problem with the cost and wish to continue in the hobby they should refrain from buying new and only buy used. Either way they will get what they pay for. If they have a severe need to keep the money in the bank, or a choice between a new engine or whatever an paying the rent, then they should do what needs to be done and not make a hobby purchase. From my perspective it's that simple.

We've both seen and read of too many that could not afford to fly giants although they did so anyway. In the process they used considerably inferior equipment to what they should have and cried loudly when they lost the plane, usually blaming the equipment. A quick listing of the equipment used often indicated that some of the more important components were not up to the task they were given. You still see people flying high performance gas engines with some real crappy props. Why, because they're cheaper than the ones that work well. This stuff is all too common and comes down to affodability. If they can't they shouldn't.

What you do is difficult for me in a lot of areas. That's why I make it a point to get to know someone that does that kind of work, or make a quick run to visit the Geek Squad:) Unfortuantely I don't have the time to devote to learning it as well as I should. OTH, you know I'll help someone work on a plane set up, engine, carb, or other related part if they ask. I realize that many don't or won't ask anybody and I've never been able to understand that.

One thing is for certain, you and I don't always agree on every topic, but I sure as heck enjoy the discussion when we do not. Even more when we do. The combination helps keep things stimulated.:D That work for you?;)

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

I just thought I would jump in here ;) As for a $400 50cc engine, the only way to get one, is to get a Chinese engine. You say the big names are not worth what they charge, but building engines myself, I know it is not a cheap thing to do. Our 60 is along the same lines as a Taurus. If I were to go overseas for my machine work, maybe I could build it cheaper, but the fact is, it costs well over $400 to produce that engine. And that is just the parts. Now figure business operating expensis in. Some companies have larger profit margins than others. Like the BME 50. I do the same engine. Not a clone. BME was not the first to convert and Echo chansaw engine I am sure. Thy just charged a heck of a lot more for it. To build a high quality 50cc class engine is expensive no matter how you do it. Weather you use Sachs cylinders like Taurus, and a CNC's crankcase, or Husqvarna cylinders and a CNC'd crankcase like I do, it is expensive. How do the DL's and 3MM's compare, I don't know. Never owned either. I just know that to build an engine here in the US, $400 is an impossability. But then again, what do I know. I just build engines.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

Scott,

Thank you for putting that so concisely. I don't evet want to see someone trying so hard to compete with a Chinese clone that they end up working for nothing. None of the buyers are willing to do it.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

Yea they have the advantage when it comes to cost of production. Heck I know I do and I am sure Bill at Taurus has well over $400 in the 52/60 just in parts. I guess I could lose a little on each engine and make it up in volume :)

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

Made some good points :)


and yes that works for me haha :D

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

i dont work for any rc shop or manufacturer, and again i get nothing for free. i can guarantee you that in the next five years(maybe sooner) companies that are charging over $600 for a 50cc engine and over $600 for 50cc size airplane either wont be around or wont be selling those products anymore no matter how good their "customer service is or where the products are made". i commend a certain company for offering planes that were lower priced than the rest and were of pretty good quality so more people could get in to gas planes. i was in another hobby for almost 30 years that is nothing, and i mean nothing, like it used to be, as far as the number of people that could afford to particpate and number of entries at each event. the reason, the manufacturers kept raising prices until it was no longer affordable or enjoyable for the every day guy to participate or enjoy. if you want an exclusive hobby for, as i call them, rich *******s, then go ahead and buy from a company that charges $679 for a little 50cc motor. you can slam me all you want but the chinese are here with good quality, affordable products and the companies over here that handle it right will prosper. oh yea, if you are saying the overpriced motors are Mercedes and the good chinese motors are Kia's then i do have to conclude you dont know what youre talking about.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

If lower priced engines are anything like lower priced airplanes or lower priced cars, or generic at the grocery store, I have every expectation that they will still be around.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

Silversurfer, I can relate to your comment about age...I'm 70. My patience is not what it once was, consequently I sometimes step on other folk's toes. Maybe I feel I'm entitled, who knows? But I won't stand around and let someone waste my time.

Guess I should mention the Taurus, I never owned one and have never seen one but I do respect quality and don't mind paying for it. I wouldn't hestitate to buy a Taurus. People fall in love with one brand or another; I do it too and it becomes a matter of importance. I love my GMC Yukon and have had three, knowing damn well the Tahoe is the same, yet I don't want a Tahoe as long as they keep making the Yukon. I have bought two Brillelli engines, they are good too. My first gas engine was a FPE 3.2 and after two years it still runs just terrific, turns a 22X8 PT CF @ 7100rpm, I couldn't ask for more.

One other thing about being old...you tend to ramble around pointlessly at times. But I'm simply saying if you are sold on the premise that the Taurus is truly a superior engine, quality-wise better than the others, why not buy it? Someone already stated "value" is what you buy and "value" is a relative thing, what's value to one may not be value to another.

I'd love to have a Taurus, my problem is I need another engine like a hole in the head.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

The problem with this short sighted thinking which many other countries don't have is --- after all the american companies that make american engines are gone, the chinese will raise their prices for those same engines so they match or surpass what the original prices where that the American manufacturers where charging. I've seen it happen over and over again.

Remember when outsourcing your technical support to India was the cheapest way to go....not any more. Not that India has driven all the US companies out of the market, up the prices have gone. Remember when a Japanese car was half as expensive as an American car. Not any more. The Japanese now sell some of the most expensive cars you can buy in America. Pick any industry that America use to lead in that is now outsourced and you will see the same thing. The only thing these companies have is the ability for their workers not to be short sighted and willing to hunker down for the short term in order to get the longer term rewards of owning the market.

Its tough---no easy answers. I think if you are going to outsource to China the key would be only to have them make the pieces that are not critical and send it to many companies to do it. Because another thing they don't lack is the ability to take something they are already making 90% of, start make the other 10% and then start selling it on Ebay.

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

Funny for some reason Carden is still around and their kits are more than a lot of high quality ARFs.

You can "guarantee" all you like.. but there is no fact with that statement :eek: You dont work for an rc shop.. but your buddy runs a small one which you love to mention :)

RE: Taurus 52c engine worth $679??????
 

I will chime in here, silversurfer. I am dawg house r/c not hvac. He has purchased from me and does like the products but in no way does he get any motivation from me to post. If you knew me you would understand why I choose to stay out of these talks. Even though people like tom have groupies spiking the threads constantly with things promoting him
And silversurfer I still have that PM you sent me regarding the touch and promoting products for companies, oh yea still waiting on that order for the 55sp... Yes it has been delayed but to everyones benefit I have charged not a single pre-buy for this product.
I do stay off the threads as it is very biased towards a few manufactures and I have been treated pretty negatively by most all of them.
So guys if you want the truth on things just call the companies, these threads are just that people with opinions sometimes loaded for whatever reason.
And don't link HVAC to being me as he is not.....