Removing alcohol from E10
 

I just read in May 2009 issue of Model Airplane News on P 14, Augusto (Gus) Agner of Brazil removes the ethanol from his 20% gasohol just by adding water to his gas, and then emptying the fuel from the bottom (with a tube/siphon, or faucent type tap like coolers have I assume).

He writes that since the alcohol is attracted to water, both will combine and then rise above the gas after mixing.

This seems like a neat trick. I'm assuming one would then add the 2 stroke oil as normal AFTER separating the water/alcohol from pure gas. I guess the hardest part is finding a large clear container to do the mix and siphoning so you can see when draining when to stop so as to not get the water in your purified fuel.

If the gas manufactuers are purposely adding the alcohol, might they also add something else that may actually HARM the engines if burned in our motors WITHOUT the alcohol being there?

Any opinions?

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

Think about all the by-products? that are a leftover from gas production.
My Uncle worked at a refinery.

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

This seems like a lot of work to save $20 every year or 2.

All you need to do is buy a carb rebuild kit once in awhile and be done with it.

Don't get me wrong, I find the concept interesting for sure. I just couldnt see going through the extra work every time I got gas.

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

The noted letter in the May issue of Model Airplane News is just continuing evidence of how little the people at M.A.N. know about anything concerning gas. In short, they screwed the pooch again.

Water is heavier/more dense than gasoline so pouring water into gas will not float the water to the top. Just the opposite, the water goes to the low point. Water weighs in around 8 lbs./gal while gas is in the area of 6 lbs./gal. Any full scale pilot can confirm this. Not an opinion, simple fact.

Model Airplane News, you folks have lost any relevance you may have managed to retain up to now. This last one, combined with the past few issues containing erroneous gas engine operations, fuels, and carb information, have placed your magazine on the list that I will not be renewing my subscription to when this one runs out.

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

What he said.

That's why airplane wings have stop cocks in the bottom of the wings...TO DRAIN THE WATER.....preflight item

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

Maybe something was lost in the translation and he meant to say/write that the combined water and alcohol will sink to the Bottom, not "rise to the top" and then can be drained off from the bottom like your typical full scale type "stop cock" technique.[sm=72_72.gif]

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

Hah! I guess I knew that but didn't catch it like you guys did! Water is indeed heavier than gas. I wonder if the original writer also wrote it backwards (ie maybe in Portugese?) or if it was translated wrong? In any case, it was pretty bad to print that.... I agree.

Ok, aside from the obvious editorial errors, I've been thinking about the process, and I won't be doing it myself unless someone I know with a chemistry background indicates there could be some overall benefit.

My thoughts are these:

1) If tap water is used, will it leave anything behind that the gas will pick up? (ie, in which case one should really use distilled water?)
2) Will the absence of the alcohol really be an improvement (additives used in this gas or lack of themdesigned to work with the alcohol won't work WITHOUT the alcohol being there)

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

Either way, Model Airplane News printed it as it reads, which is 100% wrong. Had they known what they were doing they would have caught it and corrected it or not printed it. They have a responsibioity to proof read their stuff since they sell it. They have a greater responsibility to publish information that is true and correct.

That's the peoblem here. M.A.N. is publishing all kinds of tripe pertaining to gas engine use. That includes the way the RCS 50 was tested in the last issue or so. Toss in their comments about Coleman fuel from their resident "experts" along with how ethanol is damaging our carbs and engines and all you end up with is a bunch of people that don't have a clue leading newbies down the wrong path.

Yes, you can separate a large portion of water from gas by adding more water and agitating but you better have a clear window to see where the separation occurs and draw fuel from the top. The people at M.A.N. evidently don't know this.

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

.... and if you do this whole crazy thing, how do you dispose of the alcohol laden water? I can't think of any good way to get rid of the stuff. You have just created hazardous waste material. This whole scheme is just crazy when 10% ethanol really doesn't cause any problems. For every one person that claims to have problems, there must be dozens that use the stuff without problems. Heck, if ethanol producers keep going out of business at the current rate, there won't be enough left to produce the stuff. Oh, I forgot, they can stand in line for a bailout or we can import the stuff.

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

Gus lives in Chicago, IL 60625, United States, and masters the english language very well. He may have made a mistake in his wording, and MAN never took the trouble of checking?

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

Woa!! Hazardous waste? How is this (ethanol, water, and some traces of gas left over from decanting) any less hazardous than the products which would be created by burning by the gas itself? If one considers the volumes involved, I think that's a pretty weak argument you've started there. What do most people do with the solvents involved when cleaning the tools used in applying any oil based finish? Whatever the responsible answer is in THAT case will also be the answer for this one, I assume. Collect it and recycle, or bring it to the proper places for disposal. (ie don't dump it down the drain...) In any case, I don't want to go there right now.

I'm just interested in the process. Can we please get back to the method involved and quit picking on Gus, MAN or whatever pet peeves people have with the E10 debate at the moment. [:@]

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

All carbs & kits supplied by Walbro are designed to handle up to 10% alcohol or ethanol without any problems. Why worry about it?

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

Good point. The removal process was discussed here on RCU several months or a year ago. I remember the process being described in detail at that time. You might try doing some searches.

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

[rant]dammit i am SO f-ing sick and tired of RCU dumping my posts. I really need to copy and past before posting. I had a big, detailed post and it dumped [/rant]

Anyway, here we go again. I will try to sum up.

Ethanol was added to gasoline because MTBE contaminates groundwater and is carcinogenic. It also provided up to 30% of the energy in gasoline. Ethanol was added to replace the energy, raise the octane rating, while being somewhat environmentally friendly.

E10 Gasoline is not a mixture 10% ethanol into a homogeneous mixture of same-length carbon chains of "gasoline". It is a diverse mixture of multiple-length organic molecules containing both polar (read "water-soluble") and non-polar molecules (most long-chain organic molecules). "Gasoline" from the gas station already (before ethanol is added) contains enough polar molecules to allow it to absorb ~13% water by weight.

If we try to separate ethanol from raw stock gas by simply mixing water into it and overwhelm the polar molecules, we will remove many other chemicals as well. The remaining two immiscible fluids are in effect 1) a water-based solution containing a high concentration of ethanol, many detergents, and anti-knock chemicals, and 2) a non-polar organic solution of several long carbon chain molecules.

The ethanol solution is a solvent and is corrosive to paint, fiberglass, aluminum, etc. The ethanol also acts to increase octane.

The remaining organic phase contains the long chain aromatic hydrocarbon molecules from the original gasoline, but lacks the detergents, anti-knock additives, and will be at least several numbers lower in octane rating.

If we burn the remaining gas (in model airplanes) we are probably OK. However it won't burn as cleanly as the raw stock.

Now what to do with the remainder? You are on your own. I will say that if you just dump it on the ground or in the sewer you are facing $tiff fine$$ containing MANY zeroes because the mixture is not pure ethanol. They would probably fine you anyway if it was pure ethanol...

If somebody wants to purchase ethanol-free gas, check with a local marina or farm supply store. Both are able to purchase the raw fuel before the ethanol is added (the tanker drive actually mixes the ethanol when delivering the fuel to the gas station).

Want to know the very best way to remove ethanol from gasoline? CALL YOUR LEGISLATOR!

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

Agreed. Why bother with any of the separating at all.

As for disposal, just dump it in a metal bucket and toss a match. After the volitiles burn off water the garden with the remainder. All this environmental stuff went waaaay ove the top 10 years ago.

As far as what the U.S fuel refiners put into their gas blends, you'll never know. I don't care who they say is checking the stuff, they are all bought and paid for by the gas companies. The gas will have exactly what the gas companies say it has when the reports are complete. No, I'm not a comspiracy theorist but I do believe people need to get a reality check when it comes to government agencies and corporate/financial giants.

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

I'd use the left over goods on the burn pile.[sm=lol.gif]

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

I'm afraid that you are a little mistaken when you say "10 % Ethanol really doesn't cause any problems". When our state lawmakers decided (with out thinking as usual) to mandate 10% entenol , the first thing that happened was the Coast Guard doubled the number of trouble calls received from the weekend boaters for tows after their engines were stopping mid -ocean. All their fiberglass gas tanks started to fall apart and flaking off and clogging fuel filters stopping the engines. It got so bad the CG ordered the state to allow Marina's to start selling straight gasoline again.

The small engine repair shops were in seventh heaven though, their business doubled and tripled virtually overnight. They never sold some many carburetors before.....classic car clubs petitioned the Governor to be allowed to purchase real gasoline for their cars at the boat yards..their big throat Carbs were losing all the rubber seals.

Walbro is now producing new rebuild kits with alcohol resitent diaphrams.

Sure glad there wasn't any problems.

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

Your state was far behind many others with the introduction of ethanol or other additives. California went through the first round of rotting rubber in carbs and fuel lines back in the late 80's. Don't know what the chemical that did it was named then but there was another round of fuel system failures when ethanol was mixed in. MTBE was still in use at the time in conjunction with the ethanol. People here haven't had many issues since the change in fuel mixtures after the elimination of MTBE. Then again, most of the older vehicles likely burned long before now....

In any case, it's been a few years since there have been any issues.

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

Actually the alcohol in the gas should add power once the carburetor is set right, or it is making up for lost power that might occur after they add all the other stuff to the gas.

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

This is a very old subject but one with many local biases depending on people's experiences. Our state introduced ethanol in gas back in the late 70s. Yes, there were some problems but mostly related to fuel lines and clogged fuel filters in older vehicles. These were mostly problems waiting to happen anyway and the solvency of ethanol put them over the edge into failure. I have used the stuff in my vehicles ever since its introduction and completely without incident though I suffered from several clogged filters in the beginning. New vehicles back then usually suffered zero problems ... the exception being some carbs that had composite floats that were not ethanol compatible. They got fuel saturated and sunk in the float bowl of the carb. This was a common cause of the noted vehicle fires when fuel poured out of the carb onto the hot engine. In the automotive world, I'm sure these carb problems are long gone unless a guy is trying to revive a vehicle that has been sitting out in a field for 40 years. Given time, the floats failed even in regular gasoline, the ethanol just decreased the time to failure. Fuel lines were a similar story and most that failed were hard and cracked anyway and ethanol put them over the edge. Modern lines are greatly improved and don’t fail in the same manner. Ethanol did really clean out a fuel system and all that gunk was washed to and removed by the fuel filters. Some clogged within the first few miles of driving but as soon as the crud was gone the problem went away completely. The crud was usually a nasty brown crud.

I might add there were similar problems when the industry switched from leaded fuels to unleaded fuels back in the 70s. There were all kinds of problems with clogged fuel filters and engines stopping for no reason during that change over too. The new fuel got blamed for every problem anybody had with their vehicles. I was driving a fuel transport at that time and got chewed out more than once as if the changeover was my fault. Ethanol wasn’t around then to get the blame though.

More recently, other states have been "forced" onto the ethanol bandwagon. Many areas of the country have made the change with very few problems, other areas like the SE or as mentioned HI, seem to have nothing but problems. I'm no great fuel expert and certainly not a ethanol advocate, but I contend that its not just the ethanol in the fuel mix that is causing the problem in these areas. Ethanol is ethanol except for what it might contain to denature it. If it is working in most areas with few problems but problems are rather severe in others, Hmmmm.. seems to me there is something going on with the fuel other than the ethanol content. Maybe it is ethanol working with other components of the gasoline to create an especially nasty, overly solvent fuel cocktail. I don't know what the exact problem is but I do suggest it isn't just the ethanol.

Like others, I have quite a collection of 2 stoke engines numbering into the dozens and I have never had a single, ethanol related problem. I have to believe I am fortunate to live in an area where our fuel cocktail doesn't cause excessive problems. I am going through most of my gasser carbs this winter and most are just getting screen cleanings with the rubber parts being re-used. They look perfect otherwise. One WJ carb from an old Sachs 4.2 conversion has curled pump flaps but that’s the only problems I’ve found.

Maybe we could track where our gas is refined and shipped from. Here in central Iowa, it comes mostly from the Houston TX, Eastern OK area via 2 pipelines. Not that it would do us any good, but we might be able to put our finger on a source of a problem other than the dreaded ethanol.

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

Yup. The ethanol will make more power because each molecule contains an oxygen (technically a hydroxyl group, -OH).

The tradeoff is you need to fun more fuel through the engine to do it so mileage goes down. Not particularly concerning in an airplane, but it is an issue in a car. Most of the time (freeway cruising especially) I would rather have 20% better mileage with less power.

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

I fullheartedly agree.
It was common for stock car dirt racers to add methanol to the fuel in order to raise compression ratio and power just a little bit more. IIRC, max added was 20%.
None of them whined about carb failures, or long bygone problems with obsoleted engines. And for all I know, these guys (the hobby sector) used scrap cars with scrap engines from the scrapyards!

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

Not to labor the point, but if Ethenol/alcohol doesn't cause any problems why has Walbro come out in their rebuilt kits with a new material for the diaphrams? When I emailed their engineering department this is chart they e-mailed back.
Please note the one's they recommend for alcohol
Please also note the rubber disphram is not recommened for alcohol
all Walbro carb's pump diaphrams used prior to ethenol were made from rubber.

Also Fuji and Zenoah engine manuals state" do not use fuel containing alcohol".
Just to be sure we go to the boat harbor with our 5 gal cans and buy "gas"

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

You still can't see the point. Walbro carbs have been updated to eliminate the "problems" that were inherent with what I'm going to call "ancient" carb components. Meaning those used before the use of ethanol. So for a few years now they have been selling carb kits with several "same" parts in them for the user to select for the type of fuel used in their areas. Now if users are using old equipment that has not been upgraded for fuels that have been in use in many areas for decades that's not Walbro's fault. Nor is it the fault of the fuel since it's been in use for a long time.

Many factors can influence carb performance. Simply storing them for a long period of time can create performance issues. Failure to service them periodically lets issues arise from neglect. Just for giggles, the last time I was in Hawaii I saw a lot of what I would call "clunkers" in various states of neglect and disrepair still being used by the local population so I'm going to presume there are a lot of boat engines in similar condition. The carb parts are there for anyone that wants to buy them to upgrade to the current fuels in use. To complain about what's being used and jump through hoops to find gas without ethanol instead of buying a $10.00 carb kit doesn't make any sense at all. The ethanol in the fuel does not do anything to the engine itself.

BTW, I still have carbs that have rubber diaphragms and they work just fine, although the pump membrane has been changed to ethanol friendly materials. So what else is in your gas?

It won't be but a very short time before any gas used in the U.S., continental or otherwise, will have ethanol in it, so it might be a good idea to be prepared for that. The general population takes the backseat to the energy companies, environmentalists, and special interest fuel groups everytime.

RE: Removing alcohol from E10
 

You don't see my point, for many years our "old Clunkers" worked just fine, until those idiots decided to "reduce our dependence on foreign oil" by adding ethanol to the gas without doing any research.
Now not only are we importing foreign oil we are importing ethanol why? because there is no facility on the island to manufacture it. So now we got higher prices for gas, reduced mileage , boaters stuck in the middle of the ocean, and we have to rebuild our equipment.
Why?

No one knows! Because the rest of the country is using it is not a good reason. In case you haven't noticed on your trip(s) here our prices are high enough with out unnecessarily inflating them further.