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.25 Club Racing

Old 02-15-2006, 12:38 PM
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Hellephant
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Default .25 Club Racing

Trying to set-up racing at my club. Just have a few questions. Since we don't have a whole lot of room we want to keep the speed down. Going to use .25fp or 25la's since everyone in the club seems to have a few of them laying around! My question is on airframe, we want to keep costs down to encourage participation. Right now I am considering 3 options:

1. quickie 500's
2. AT-6 texans (H.O.B.'s and Globals)
3. World models aircombat .25 series

I'm really curious if anyone knows how the aircombats and 500's run with just plain bearing .25's?

Thanks

Mike

http://www.richvalleyrc.com
Old 02-15-2006, 01:37 PM
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splatt
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

Wow, a local. We race up Osseo at grassfield.

there used to be a .28 Q500 league years ago that flew alot at St paul. Quickie with .25's fly fine. Those .25 combat thing that GP sells fly good too.

texans have a nasty ground loop habit that eats up alot of them .
Old 02-15-2006, 01:55 PM
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Hellephant
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

Howdy!

There actually seems to be pretty good representation of MN at RCU for us being a frozen wasteland and such! We want to keep it kinda slow...too many nervous old guys in club plus we don't have alot of room---check out our website and look at the field size---let me know what you think. Keep in mind that i'm talking about 25FP's...not hyper-active bearing motors. You think it would be good to clip a couple inches off the quickie wings or just go stock?

Mike
Old 02-15-2006, 02:24 PM
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

The trouble with .25 powered quickies is usually on takeoff. They just don't swing a big enough prop to pull the airplane through an accidental stall on takeoff. Speed wise, you are at around 90 mph for an average good .25, though 100 is possible with a good airframe design. Also, if you don't alway have a headwind on takeoff, so even more accidents happen.

You would be far better off with a 40 sized engine, and keep the speed down with prop restrictions, like using a 10-5 instead of a 9-6.

The HOB T-6 does fly well on .25's, but they like to snap roll on takeoff if very much rudder is used.
Old 02-15-2006, 02:45 PM
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

40 size is out of the question...we have already decided it's gonna be .25 bushed engines. Was thinking of using only 4in of pitch on prop--probably a 9x4 or 10x4, that will slow them down and the larger diameter might give me the thrust I need. With the slower speed I'm thinkin HS-81MG's should be enough on the control surfaces. Maybe leave off the landing gear (2 pole inflight starts) and combined with light flight gear might be enough to allow the FP's to pull them around nicely. Maybe I'm thinking too much...who knows, it might all come together to work out great.
Old 02-15-2006, 02:57 PM
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

We flew 25 size at St Paul for many years We allowed engines up to 28 actually The Webra 28 is the top engine It would turn 17600 on one of the old Master airscrew 8/6 black props. I would say if you lower the weight limit to 2 3/4 or 3 lbs The people who can build their own Q500 with sticks and covering instead of foam and sheeting are going to have the best luck The OS 25FP are LA are pretty wimpy engines in my opinnion However if the aircraft weight is 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 they should do alright



















Old 02-15-2006, 03:16 PM
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Hellephant
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

Maybe come up with our own club design based on the 500. 300-400 square in.
Old 02-15-2006, 09:20 PM
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daven
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

Not sure where Dakota County is, but it can't be too far. If you've decided on the .25 (LA, or FP) not a bad engine, but not really a race engine. I ran a .25 FX in the local .25 racing a few years ago with the St Paul club. Lots of fun in the 90-100 mph range. The bushing engines your are looking at will most likely be about 10 mph slower, but cheaper. Not necessarily a bad thing.

A light quickee ( 3 1/4 lbs and less) flew just fine with a 25 off of a plywood (4'x8') sheet and grass. If you don't plan on the plywood, or don't plan on keeping the grass short, you will have a tough time getting them off the ground.

One of my goals in racing was to beat Albert S. he is a very tough "old school" type racer that has helped me a lot. We don't always agree on local politics, but I have immense respect for him.

I would love to see you guys stick with the basic Quickie airframe, rather than branch out into something "exotic". We have a local group (20-30) guys that race these types of planes, and if anyone wants to come race some of the "big boys", they would at least already have a legal airframe.

Dave
Old 02-15-2006, 09:53 PM
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Clark L
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

Hey Mike,

What you want to do is currently being done and it's working great. Check out these two links for the rules used on a racing series we have down here in Southern California. It's been a great success.

The T6's fly great and even take off pretty well provided you don't forget to put the washout in the wing. The Quickies also fly real well on the .25's... no problems. We fly on an 3 pylon 1/2A AMA course. It's seems to be the perfect size for the speeds of both classes. If space is at a premium, try the 2 pylon course...

http://www.sgvrcl.org/quick.htm
http://www.sgvrcl.org/atrules.htm
Old 02-16-2006, 01:25 AM
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Hellephant
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

It's looking more and more that the way to go is with the quickie planes, just gotta keep them light!! Thanks to all you guys! I think it's great that racing is so healthy in MN! I might have to con one of you guys to come down to the Hastings area this summer to give us hand. Who knows, we might end up sending a couple racers to your neck of the woods someday!

Mike





Old 02-16-2006, 01:36 AM
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Ken Erickson
 
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

For what it's worth.

We had a bushing .25 race going for almost 8 years at our club. It ended 9 years ago when the instigator moved away. The prefered engines were the Magnum and Thunder Tiger. We used 9X4 MA props and supplied fuel.

While I was looking last night, could not find a TT .25 bushing engine. Magnum was still available. People who have started in the last 7 years probably do not have FPs. LAs are used on Q500s. It is a good thing to have nearly equal equipment. Heck, in a beginner racing program it is important to have equal equipment. Scratch the beginner part, horse racing and NASCAR have rules to try to equalize equipment.

Pick one engine, even if it is the LA, (FPs will smoke LAs).

If you start with Quickee 500s, you can easily move up to the next level by allowing .40s later, If you have the room.

Here is the thing I get the most flak from people who have not raced or pros: Racing is not really about how fast you go. It is about finishing the race ahead of the rest of the heat. Tony Stewart started in Go-karts. If I started another .25 class today, it would be Quickes, .25 Bushing Magnum and 10 X 4 prop. (better thrust, slower speed). I like to keep the cost down.

Who knows, I might. I moved back.

Ken, AMA 19352
Old 02-16-2006, 01:55 AM
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Hellephant
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

The TT GP25 is a bushed engine...the case kinda makes it look like it has bearings,but it don't. FP's can still be had for about $40 new on E-bay--lol---just too many of those things made! I do agree that the best way to start out is with everyone having the same eqip---saves alot money! I'm looking to start with pretty slow planes, I figure once people in the club figure out that we are not flying anti-personal missles we can go on to a little bit faster stuff. I don't see the day where we'll ever be able to fly 40 bearing type planes though...just don't have the space.

Mike
Old 02-18-2006, 08:39 PM
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smokingwreckage
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

Hellephant, do you want cheap and competitive or do you want fast? Forget the HS81s as they are neither cheap nor competitive.

My club races .25 sport engines with a street price under $100. Sounds like a nice, cheap way to go, eh? NOT! The winners always are flying scratch-built versions of Q500 or Q40 racers with digital mini servos and carbon fiber everything that weigh under 3 pounds. These planes require hundreds of hours of construction and many hundreds of dollars in each one. You know how important bragging rights are to some people.

Wouldn't it be nice if it all boiled down to pilot skill? Yes? Then you can't mix FPs and LAs. FPs will trounce LAs every time. Don't lose hope. There is a way to insure pilot skill makes the winner without spending a fortune. Here's my suggestion:

Buy SPAD materials en masse for everyone to build identical HOR-like pylon racers. Your first airframe will set you back about $50, less engine, prop, spinner, and flight pack. This is using all new materials--no scrounging. Your second through fifth airframes will set you back about $30 each. The more you build, the cheaper it gets.

Here's how that works:
1 piece 4-mil Coroplast is $8 and makes 16 sets of tail surfaces and ailerons.
3 pieces of 2-mil Coroplast is $36 and makes 15 wings.
8 pieces of 8-foot screen channel at $32 makes 16 wing spars.
5 pieces of 8x3/4 aluminum plywood edging for $27 for fuselages.
2 poly cutting boards for $11 makes 24 engine mounts.
15 sets Hayes 2 1/4-inch racing wheels for $36.
3 7-packs 5/32 music wire for 26 for landing gear.
5 12-packs Great Planes 5-32 wheel collars for $18.
2 36-packs Great Planes 2-56 pushrods for $28.
30 2-packs Great Planes swivel clevises for $39.
15 Sullivan 4-ounce round tanks for $59.
2 3-feet Great Planes fuel line for $5.
2 Dubro foam rubber for $7.
Assorted hardware, weatherstrip, and zipties for $75.

All that adds up to a little over $407. Add tax and shipping, maybe $450 total. For 15 airplanes. $30 each. All else you'll need is your engines and flight packs.

Now, since the airframes only cost $30 each, why not invest in identical engines, spinners, and props. I suggest the GMS .25 available from Tower Hobbies for $54.95, free shipping if you buy 3 or more. Specify a 2-inch spinner and 8x6 APC sport prop; your airplanes are up to $91 each, and virtually equal in performance.

Specify non-digital, cored servos weighing at least 1.3 ounces and costing less than $20 each, 600mah nicad batteries, and stock receivers. This gives you an opportunity to make use of all those standard servos and batteries unfit for your fancy airplanes. Such flight packs run in the $95-$115 range for most brands. A newbie could even opt for a 4-channel set for $120 or so and still be airborne for $215.

If this sounds like the path you might take, let me know and I'll be happy to create a photo essay of the next HOR racer I build, complete with materials list. You and your fellow racers can throw a SPAD building party and build all the planes simultaneously on a Saturday morning, the race them in the afternoon.

I strongly suggest ROG starts because they are a lot more fun.
Old 02-19-2006, 01:15 PM
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Ken Erickson
 
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

Hellephant,

In reply to one of your first questions, the World Models Aircombat series fly just fine with our bushing Magnum .25s. We are not racing them, but two of our guys have them. They would fly well even with LA .25s. Our races 10 years ago were with the Global Cessna 177, 48 in wingspan, 3.25-3.5 lbs new, more after repairs. The aircombats are better.

Our club wants to use the Skyraider Mark II and LA.40s instead, as that combo costs less. Unfortunately, the AMA Safety Code requires much longer distances between pylons and spectaters when using .40s (495 feet) than when using .25s (338 feet).

Though a lot of people think SPADs are "wierd", they are quite feasable and cheap. To get that started, or anything for a fact, you would need to get some flying and demonstrate their usefullness and fun. Maybe you and the other guys who are helping you get this started could build about 6 or 8, fly them, and let the other members of your club fly them. That is if you can convince the other guys.

Ken, AMA 19352
Old 02-19-2006, 05:51 PM
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smokingwreckage
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

The weird thing about SPADS is that they actually fly. SPAD design has come a long way in the past couple years. Most people who try pylon don't stick with it long because it takes money and time to be competitive. My $200 purpose designed SPAD pylon racers make 90% of the speed of the best $1500 scratch-built racers, 95% of the speed of the $350 ARF Q500 planes, and one cannot tell them apart in the air unless they are side-by-side.

Every race sees at least one air-to-air, and I've seen 3 in a day. SPAD wins those contests every times, or ties if hit by another SPAD. Plastic bounces. I've been hit twice while practicing, still finished the "heat" both times, and made safe, controlled landings. I had to replace the wing after the first clash because of prop cuts, and reattached the antenna wire the second time. Better than replacing a splintered airframe as the others had to do.

I would not recommend begining your racing program with dedicated pylon racers because the assembly techniques are rather advanced for SPAD newbies. The HOR variant I recommend is a fast and easy build. Once all the parts are in the shop I can build a flight-ready HOR in 90 minutes start to finish, as opposed to 16 hours for the pylon racers, plus glue drying time.

If you want cheap fun and close competition in a limited space, HORs are the way to go. HORs fly slower, land slower, and a are just as easy to fly as the pylon racers with Coroplast fuselage. Four planes wingtip-to-wingtip at 60mph is a lot more fun than a line of planes at 85, 90, 95, and 100 mph.

Also, pylon HORS have a second life. Symmetric-wing HORs on channel are my favorite practice-new-stupids planes because they will survive events that will make kindling out of balsa planes. Augered it in? No problem: bend the fuselage back to some semblance of its original shape, put the wing back on, wash the crankcase out with SeaFoam spray with a tube up the intake, new prop, and fire that mother up. Of course, augering in the same plane 3-4 times usually weakens the spar to the point it eventually breaks. A new wing is 30 minutes and $5. Flare too high, tip stall, and do 3 cartwheels down the runway? No problem, straighten the wing, landing gear, and tail pushrods, new prop, and go. Don't worry about that split in the wing, a little colored duct tape and it's good as new. Holed the fuel tank? It takes longer to assemble the stopper on the replacement than it does to R&R the tank. Give the HORs a try, I doesn't cost much.
Old 02-20-2006, 10:39 AM
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

It's not cheap if you start off with one type of airframe and required engine and later switch to something else because some members want to standardize. That's the reason several posters have recommended the Q500 airframe and TT40 engine. They are cheap, available and allow anyone who wants to the ability to move up into more serious racing. Further the rules are well established and that stops arguments.
Further it isn't cheap if the chosen engine isn't dependable and sturdy. You wind up buying a bunch of them and boxes of parts.
Old 02-20-2006, 08:37 PM
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smokingwreckage
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

I keep hearing the phrase "if someone wants to move up." At that point it isn't club racing anymore. Most people I know who quit pylon racing do so after crashing their airplanes. It's just too much money to replace planes every 4th or 5th event because of air-to-airs if pylon racing is viewed as a fun club activity. In any event, if someone wants to move up, they'll still have the HOR for when the days are warm and the wind is just a bit high to risk balsa.

Keep the goals of the venture in mind:

1) Fun. This requires equal performance airplanes, such as I proposed above.
2) Cheap. GMS + HOR is less total $$$$ than a Q500 ARF in the box, and will not turn to splinters first bump or muffed landing. Q500s are expensive and fragile, and air-to-airs are common in pylon. HORs will require fewer replacement airframes, and are 1/5 to 1/3 the price of the cheapest Q500 arf when replacement is due. If you don't want ROG starts, a HOR V-tail airframe costs less than $20, all new materials. Also, HORs fly fine on standard servos, receivers, and batteries that most people have stashed in a corner, anyway. No need for expensive mini servos and lightweight batteries to lighten the planes enough a bushing engine will do the job. With flight packs about double the cost of engines, it make sense to use flight packs already owned and buy engines than to use engines already owned and buy flight packs.
3) Small flying area. The Q500 planes are simply too fast (95-100mph), even with a bearing .25 or bushing .40. The HORs might run 65 on a good day with the same engines. You can slow them down even more by requiring a 9x4 MAS or APC prop.

I challenge anyone to come up with a lower cost way to fly aircraft competitive with each other on glow engines in a small area.
Old 02-21-2006, 11:26 AM
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DHG
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

smokingwreckage,

1. You make an awful lot of sense. Beware, or you may get branded as a heretic.

2. For the acronymically challenged among us, could you define "HOR"? I am afraid to speculate on this one.

Duane Gall
RCPRO
Old 02-21-2006, 11:38 AM
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splatt
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

HOR is Heck On Rails

http://spadtothebone.com/freeplans.htm

Old 02-22-2006, 09:56 PM
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smokingwreckage
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

Me, a heretic?!?!?!? You don't say?

Recommending a Q500 as a first racer makes about as much sense as buying your teenager a Nextel Cup car instead of a gokart.

To build numbers in a hobby, it must be affordable, practical, and fun. The attempts to limit costs in the "official regulations" simply means those who are already flying the higher classes, like Quicky 500, are flying another class, like Sport Quicky. These attempts are not bringing new racers into the sport. I think that if the number of RC pylon racers is to grow, something must be done to further reduce the costs in time and money. A novice one-design SPAD series would bring many newbies to pylon racing. Anyone racing a balsa class would not be allowed to compete in the one-design except against others also racing balsa. I think a claimer rule would be good--any competitor can buy any winner's complete airplane for $200. Last place finisher would have first dibs.
Old 02-23-2006, 07:15 AM
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Ed Smith
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

These planes require hundreds of hours of construction and many hundreds of dollars in each one.
Hundreds of construction hours???? What on earth are you building?

Ed S
Old 02-23-2006, 10:44 AM
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splatt
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

spads are cool and all, yes it's neat to see a plastic sign go by. I tried a couple, but for myself I perfer flying light models, either balsa or fiberglass. Q40 is my buzz. need lots of space though and thats a drag.


To me flying spads I felt like I was unlearning basic habits. Climbing when inverted messed with my mind, had to walk awy from those things.

.15 sized Gnats are cool, gotta have like 5 flying at once in combat, total buzz. But we are in a pylon forum so chances are the converstation is only going to go so far before turning into a trolling match


Good luck , it's all for fun
Old 02-23-2006, 10:57 AM
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Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

Hi,

If you want to fly for fun, and cheap, you may want to visit the Guelph Gremlins web site.

You will notice the following statement: "Pilots Wanted!! Gremlins’ Slow Combat Squadron". This is on the opening page. If you follow the link, and click on the first "here" at the end of the first paragraph of the article, you will be pointed to a descriptive document that includes plans for a Slow Combat plane and a wing template. It is easy to build, and purposely designed to cost very little. It flies with an inexpensive .15 non ball bearing engine. The intent is to create a very low cost plane in order to chase each other around the sky and have fun, the intent is to cut a crape paper streamer strung out behind another pilot’s plane.

I called Richard Staron, in Toronto, who makes the wing foam cores. He is a strong promoter of the event, and sells the foam core wing set for $6.00. He stresses this event is strictly for fun, and all costs are purposely kept to a minimum. It is a must that the participants understand that the event is strictly for fun and must shake hands at the end of the event, go for coffee etc.

The Guelph Gremlin’s link is: http://ca.geocities.com/guelphgremli...com/index.html if you are interested.

There is no expense spared for the first place prize at each event – the first place pilot gets full bragging rights, that is, until the next event. This looks like fun if participating with your membership and the other club “squadrons’ that are quickly springing up around the area.

Hope you find it interesting.

Fly4Fun,

Wayne Miller
Old 02-24-2006, 12:39 AM
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smokingwreckage
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing


ORIGINAL: Ed Smith

These planes require hundreds of hours of construction and many hundreds of dollars in each one.
Hundreds of construction hours???? What on earth are you building?

Ed S

One race plane, one spare, one crash, one more plane, another crash, another plane; every piece of every plane sanded by hand to remove 0.050 inch of material to save 0.005 ounce of weight off each piece. No, it is not unusual to spend a couple hundred hours scratch building planes for a season of pylon racing. There are several old timers around here that claim to do just that. Most of them don't even fly their planes, either, they find some young hotshot pilot yet to surrender his visual acuity and reflexes to the onset of aging to fly the planes.

The point is, why should I bother racing if I don't have a snowball's chance of doing well once in a while. It simply isn't a race if one plane is consistently significantly faster than others. Playing follow the leader around the pylons is boring. Put the master builders with hired pilots in a class by themselves, let the rest of us have some fun. That's exactly what AMA does at the Scale Masters.
Old 02-24-2006, 12:48 AM
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smokingwreckage
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Default RE: .25 Club Racing

It is not necessary to go fast to have fun pylon racing. The most fun I've seen anyone have pylon racing is a group of middle school kids racing Slow Sticks with can motors on 2-cell li-polys racing round a 3-pylon course that consisted of a telephone pole (no wires left on it) and the goalposts on the practice field, about 40 yards away. They raised quite a ruckus. 4 planes, 20 kids in 5 teams, 4 heats, each kid flying 1 heat. Team points won.

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