Notices
Giant Scale Aircraft - 3D & Aerobatic Discuss all your 3D & Aerobatic giant scale airplanes right here!

DA Engine & DP Edge

Old 09-06-2003, 01:58 AM
  #1  
baddog
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Shipman, VA
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default DA Engine & DP Edge

Hi, i have been following all of the threads i can find on the DP Edge. I decided to go with the DA 50 gas as many of you have done. Mine came out at 16 Lbs /4 oz. It was flown for the first time today - or should i say crashed? Everything seemed fine at first and i tryed not to use much throttle but on the second pass at a very moderate speed and at level flight, i experienced the worst aileron flutter i've ever seen (looked like the whole wings were flapping). I chopped throttle and regained control assuming there was servo damage. I still had some ail control as i turned to land but lost it about 10' from the ground. Both JR 4721's were stripped (1 on each aileron). Also found that the rudder only moves sbout 1 ".Airplane is fixable but here are the questions.Did the weight of the plane effect the flutter - did the prop wash of that 22x10 add to the problem - What's the best fix? Will 2 aileron servos really stop this? I hate to add anymore weight and am thinking about redoing the whole thing with a different engine. Thanks for any replys!!
Old 09-06-2003, 03:03 AM
  #2  
JohnVH
My Feedback: (38)
 
JohnVH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ferndale, WA
Posts: 16,131
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Default DA Engine & DP Edge

Wow, buddy has a BME50 on his, no flutter issues at all. Ill have some vid of it up soon.

His is about the same weight as yours, but he runs a 22x8 on it. Make sure you setup the linkages to the best mechanical ability to hold them with little slop.
Did you seal your hinge gaps on the bottom of the surfaces?
Old 09-06-2003, 03:26 AM
  #3  
baddog
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Shipman, VA
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default DA Engine & DP Edge

I know i tend to overdo some things. Batteries in tutle deck,2 ele servos in tail and 2 oz lead. Didn't use any DP hardware. Titanium rods,allum servo horns - servos advertise about 116 oz torque. Didn't seem slopy, But i used the inner ail servo location for installation. It was pretty scary. ..Had people looking for cover. The only place i really added any weight was the motor box. My canopy is stripped and i trimmed out as much wood as i could and it still is 2 oz more than DP's model. The wing panels seem likewise. Don't see how it's posible to get 14-15 lbs. Bought that carbon gear and saved 4 oz. Damage was mostly rudder,one wing tip and a CF prop which probably saved my engine. I can understand excesive speed or in a dive but this was low speed level flight. Oh, and i sealed all surfaces on both sides.
Old 09-06-2003, 05:10 AM
  #4  
bckyrdbshr
My Feedback: (35)
 
bckyrdbshr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Strawberry, AR
Posts: 1,047
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default DA Engine & DP Edge

Sorry about your plane.... sounds like DP needs to do a little research on the problem this is just one of many Ive heard about with bad flutter. I was thinking hard about getting on but now I think i'll pass.
Old 09-06-2003, 01:07 PM
  #5  
BobH
My Feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Springfield, VA,
Posts: 8,018
Received 15 Likes on 15 Posts
Default DA50 DP Edge

Baddog, what size engine is called for in the Edge? I know Dave typically recommends engines on the more conservative side for his planes and I was just curious.. BobH.
Old 09-06-2003, 03:06 PM
  #6  
baddog
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Shipman, VA
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default DA Engine & DP Edge

Hi, several are sugested and listed on his site. Saito 180, moki 180 , or zdz 40 gas. I don't know the complete weight of the zdz compared to the DA but i couldn't get one at the time. Doesn't seem there would be a lot of difference. I've heard of someone using a moki 210. I'm thinking that if i had been going faster when this happened the plane would have come apart and things would have been much worse. I read some people had problems and some didn't. I didn't want to cut into the wing to install the servo in the middle and make patches in the covering. I have a Lanier 30% with the same servos (1 each aileron) with no problems at full throttle (zdz 80 twin). I'd just like to be sure the problem is solved before i try this again. Move servo to middle or add second to outer location and be adding more weight.Been flying about 15 years but I've never really hovered a plane.I do want lots of power.
Old 09-06-2003, 04:07 PM
  #7  
NM_Mark
Senior Member
My Feedback: (8)
 
NM_Mark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Great Bend, Kansas
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default DA Engine & DP Edge

This is too bad. I have a friend flying the same plane with a BME50...and it fly's super, even in our 4400' altitude. No flutter at all. Hope you find out what did it, I thinking of getting the same plane myself...

Mark
Old 09-06-2003, 11:23 PM
  #8  
fly3dnyc
My Feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Bayside, NY
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default DA Engine & DP Edge

Where on the control horn did you hook up the linkage? Was it close to the control surface? I guy that flies at our flied had it very close to the control surface and fluttered like crazy.
Old 09-08-2003, 12:26 PM
  #9  
skerlock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Kalispell, MT
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

Do any of you read the instructions....NOT, Read his instructions he is very clear on what not to do,which is what you did.obveously because you had flutter problems I
own this plane it flys at 12.5 lbs..Matter of fact..I followed his recomondations and it works.....by the way w/ my 160 O.S. I was a a new field sunday and the Gas guys who are flying from 33% to 40% birds couldnt believe the performance. They all thought i had a gasser in it It dosent even sound like a glow..

Dont blame an outstanding product due to our own failers..Didnt he alow for 2 servos in each wing half? Why you wouldnt use both when putting a 50 gasser on it Makes no sense.



Scott
Old 09-08-2003, 02:07 PM
  #10  
Mokken
My Feedback: (63)
 
Mokken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Bethlehem, GA
Posts: 1,199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

I agree with Skerlock. I own a DP Edge and it's powered by a YS 140DZ with an APC 18x8w prop, Pull-Pull on rudder and elevators and I'm using Hitec HS5625 MG servos throughout the plane. The only reason to run a gas engine on a DP Edge would be the cleanup at the end of the day, but a little oil don't hurt anything.

Planes comes in at 12lbs 6oz...

I've not had any problems with flutter..unlimited vertical is no problem, hovering is so easy.

A DA 50 is a bit much motor for this plane IMO...

Good luck with getting her back together.
Old 09-08-2003, 04:47 PM
  #11  
ptgarcia
Senior Member
My Feedback: (36)
 
ptgarcia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Alta Loma, CA
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

There's absolutely no need for 2 aileron servos per wing on this size plane. One high-torque is plenty. It's not the servo, it must be in the linkage somewhere. Go back trough your linkage and make sure its set-up to make the best use of that servos torque. Make sure the control surface hinge line is sealed also. Good luck!
Old 09-08-2003, 05:17 PM
  #12  
JohnVH
My Feedback: (38)
 
JohnVH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ferndale, WA
Posts: 16,131
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

The 50cc gas engines are perfect for this size aircraft. No mess, cheaper fuel, more power. win win!
Old 09-08-2003, 10:23 PM
  #13  
fly3dnyc
My Feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Bayside, NY
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

50cc is perfect. I just had the best flying weekend all season with my DPM Extra DA50 combo. I believe the flutter is due to linkage set up and servo torque. I'm using 180 oz. servos one each in the aileron. You may also want to increase the prop dim. and lower the pitch. I was pushing this plane with a 23 x 8 mejzlik prop doing full throttle low passes and was rock solid. Not even a hint of flutter.

Baddog,

Hope you get it sorted out. These planes are a blast and the thrust to weight ratio is awesome. At least 2 to 1. Go with the higher torque servos you wont regret it.

Oh, and you wont have to stop by the LHS spend $25 for a gallon of 25%-30% glow fuel and have to spend 30 minutes cleaning up the glow mess at the end of the day.

Gassers Rule.
Old 09-09-2003, 02:57 AM
  #14  
baddog
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Shipman, VA
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

It seems a few posts are lost in the change over for the time being. I haven't found a real cause for this yet but ordered two more servos today. I said in one of those posts that i think this can be a good plane and that i haven't had a perfect arf so far.For every product there is someone with a bad experience. I just want to get to the bottom of this as it has never happened to me before. It's interesting to read the different opinions (gas/glow, one servo/two) My ail horn length is pretty much the same as the servo arms and there is no slop however i will be lengthening the horns to be longer than the output arms. Someone suggested today that engine vibration can induce flutter. I've been working on the plane and plan on trying again this weekend. As stated i will post results.
Old 09-09-2003, 03:17 AM
  #15  
baddog
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Shipman, VA
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

I would like to add that what i said about coming out at 14-15 lbs referes to the people using the 50 cc engines. I came close to buying the ys 140 but at $700 and i've heard you need to run 30%, the gas seemed more apealing. I also agree you should not need two servos on each ail on this plane. I've heard several examples of 35% or larger which work fine with only one. I'm well aware DP says to use the outermost hole on the horns. Right now mine are at 1 1/4 but will be changed. Desert aircraft sugested the 22/10 for the DA 50. I will now use a 22/8.
Old 09-09-2003, 08:27 PM
  #16  
didiwatt
My Feedback: (38)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: La Center WA
Posts: 814
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

Bad Dog:
I had the same exact set-up as yours and lost it on the first flight. I had all first rate equipement. Same deal, straight and level flight at 1/2 throttle and running rich. Airlerons fluttered and blew out all the gears in the servo's which were 130 oz. torque. Like you, this was a first for me. Have a DP Extra 330L first version with Taurus 52cc and have 100 of flights with no problems. I had absolutely no damage to hinges, linkages, arms or hatches. Just servo gears. I feel that the single servo location is to fair inboard leaving way to much airleron hanging out waiting to flutter. I know some guys are getting away with it but you and I did not. Replacing fuselage now and will use 2 servos on the airlerons. Hope that works.
Paul Eagon
Old 09-09-2003, 10:38 PM
  #17  
Paul Cataldo
Senior Member
My Feedback: (10)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Jonesboro, GA
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

Paul,
I have been following your experience with thinking that the servo is too far inboard. I know it is a possibility.
However, I have a Lanier 30% Edge with a single aileron servo placed even FARTHER inboard than the DP Edge. In fact there isn't even a second servo bay option on the Lanier.
I do not disagree with you at all, but it just makes me wonder why many ARF companies would overlook such an issue, if it is truly a problem? This holds especially true with planes such as my Lanier, that don't even have a second servo option, making it even more logical to place the single servo in the middle.....
Old 09-09-2003, 10:58 PM
  #18  
h82crash
Senior Member
 
h82crash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: ramona, CA
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

My post was missing too. Back to reading intructions, There is a warning and instruction NOT to use a prop with a pitch higher than 8 or else...flutter, stuff flying off,ect.
Old 09-10-2003, 01:09 AM
  #19  
baddog
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Shipman, VA
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

Pceagon, that sounds familiar. The only damage was the gears untill it hit the ground. I was very lucky.Damage was confined to one wing tip, the prop and upper half of rudder. I have the time right now and have already made the repairs. Just waiting on servos. I've always used a programable mix to link the rudder to ailerons for this kind of thing. It saved a plane once but i didn't think to use it this time. I use rudder a lot but it's different when that's all you've got. Can't wait to try again...you think i was nervous the first time... Like Paul, i also have the lanier (only 2 flights on it) and never gave it any thought until now but it's close to the same. H82, I know DP recomended 8 pitch prop. but don't recall mention of this causing flutter. I'll read instructions again. Do you really think this was a big factor?
Old 09-10-2003, 09:31 AM
  #20  
Yak Man
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Yak Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

DP Edge
Moki 2.1 w/ Menz std. 20 x 7, Omega FAI Fuel $6.78/gal.
Single JR 4721 per aileron w/ 4-40 linkages on inner servo position. 6 volt Batteries
Large Du Bro Horns for ailerons where drilled completly thru aileron, thin CA, tapped and 8 -32 bolts to sandwich aileron. Sheet metal screws were pitched in trash.
10 gallon so far, unlimited verticle, an I mean truly Unlimited.
No flutter problems.

Down lines, NO Throttle
Level flight, 1/4 to 1/2 Throttle

THROTTLE MANAGEMENT

Per Instructions: " 6 to 8 pitch prop, No more than an 8 pitch prop"
Large Diameter, Low Pitch: Pulling Power not Speed

Firewall was reinforced with triangle stock, 1/8 dowel pegs & epoxy. Motor box fuel proofed w/ epoxy.
WARNING: Motor Box, glue used from the factory will dissolve when exposed to methanol.

Moki 2.1 is too much power, but then it is too much fun.
Fuel consumption to power ration is less than any Saito 180 or YS motor that I own and FAI Fuel is 1/3 the cost.

"Charged & Fueled this PARTY!" [sm=thumbup.gif][sm=greedy.gif]
Old 09-10-2003, 10:24 AM
  #21  
h82crash
Senior Member
 
h82crash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: ramona, CA
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

I think speed is a major factor with flutter. Remeber, as the suface deflects a vortex will form and rotors will spin on the leeward side of the surface. These forces will test your linkage, servos, hinges, ect. The forces increase with speed. If you don't manage throttle, even an 8 pitch prop will overspeed this plane.
Old 09-10-2003, 09:43 PM
  #22  
baddog
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Shipman, VA
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

jds your setup sounds great. I'm in to far to change just yet. If this doesn't work i may follow your example. I am not familiar with FAI fuel. I've never seen any glow fuel at that price. I'd like to know If it contains nitro and where it could be found. Now i'm starting to worry about using an 8 pitch prop. I don't want to pass the "break point"
Old 09-10-2003, 09:52 PM
  #23  
JohnVH
My Feedback: (38)
 
JohnVH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ferndale, WA
Posts: 16,131
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

Im running a 10 pitch prop on a gasser and no problems.
Old 09-10-2003, 10:22 PM
  #24  
Aero330LX
Senior Member
My Feedback: (-1)
 
Aero330LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: None
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

Hi I noticed a few posts about the YS 140DZ. On a plane like the Edge in question I wouldn't run one. They are perfectly good engines for a pattern airplane, but they are VERY expensive to operate. The fuel has to be a special DZ blend which happens to be expensive 30% nitro with special oil content. They suck that fuel down like crazy too. It'll be a 28 dollar day everytime you take a plane out to the field with one of those things on the nose. The reward however is SERIOUS power! That engine has ALOT of power! I see no problem at all with a DA 50 on that plane. I suspect (and it's hard to say without actually seeing it do it) that the plane exibited what is commonly called 'sympathetic vibration' or what the techies call 3rd order harmonics. It's something that happens when the 'tune' of an 'impulse' equals the 'tune' of the airplane. It can be tricky to solve sometimes as it must be solved thru a process of elimination and isolating possible causes. This is not the fault of a component or the total number of componets even. It is a rare occurance that happens when conditions are 'just right' with the components. The reason I think that this is what's hapening is becasue the frequency of the wing occilations and the fact that the poster said 'he was afraid the plane was gonna break up'. That is VERY severe and does happen with flutter but not usually at lower airspeeds and power settings. The 3rd Order Harmonics happens at certain power settings when the conditions are just right, and he said it ceased the instant he reduced power which leads me to beleive that power setting is somehow related. This is something that you may want to check for with some guys that have been in this for a real long time. It is something that definitely can be disastrous, and that's why I thought I would bring it up. Maybe this will help you solve the issue. I really hated to see it caused damage.
Old 09-11-2003, 04:45 AM
  #25  
baddog
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Shipman, VA
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: DA Engine & DP Edge

yeah, a friend of mine flys a YS91 on the aeroworks 540 and says it's $2.50 per flight. He usually burns $5.00 worth and goes home. 3rd order harmonics? Well leave it to me to get things Just right. This happened at approx 1/3 throttle. I don't think the wings would withstand what i witnessed for long . The covering at the root rib of one wing half wrinkled.

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.