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WATER IN GLOW FUEL

Old 01-17-2005, 09:33 AM
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john316
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Default WATER IN GLOW FUEL

I seem to have gotten another gallon can of glow fuel contaminated with water, third time in two years from the same manufacturer and same hobby shop. Never had this problem before with any other brand of fuel or from any other shop. I don't want to mention the brand or the shop so as not to offend anyone but is anyone else having trouble with H2O in their fuel? It almost cost me a $1400 airplane yesterday when the engine quit on a go-around. Luckily damage was confined to tweaked gear legs, a broken prop and a bruised ego, could have been much, much worse so I was lucky this time. Also is there a reliable test for water in glow fuel?

John
Old 01-17-2005, 11:26 AM
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

Well from what I have heard once you have water in glow fuel the only way to get it out is throw it away. If you are not sure how it got there them I would suggest talking to your local hobby shop and see how and where they are storing it. Never I repeat never store your jugs of glow fuel directly on a concrete floor. You should always store them in their original container and if possible and if you dont plan on flying for a while, replace the cap tightly store them in a warm place. Also try and remove as much "free air" from inside the container as possible. It is the cooling and heating of the fluid and the air that causes the air to condense inside the jug causing moisture. What I "try" and do is when I have used say half a jug, when you replace the cap, squeeze the air out and deform the jug before resealing it again, this gets excess air out of the jug and less room for the condensation process. One of the other issues that causes moisture is most guys will store their planes and fuel inside a garage which of course in lot of cases (but not all) is an unheated part of the house. This cools the fuel, you put it in a warm car, set it in the sun and before you know it you are creating your own weather system inside that fuel bottle. Store in a warm place, with as little air inside the bottle as possible up off the concrete floor and you should not have any troubles.
Old 01-17-2005, 12:20 PM
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Geistware
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

The water should have desolved in the fuel if it was just water.
If should not cause it to just die like it sucked up a water bubble.
Old 01-17-2005, 11:32 PM
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qweedqwag
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

Water in the fuel actually makes the engine run better, go to Google and do a search on glow fuel, water added to glow fuel actually increases power in glow engiones, so chances are it was a tuning issue. ie pilot error...sorry.


Mike.
Old 01-18-2005, 05:44 AM
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jbflier
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

Uuhhmm.......I don't think so................
Old 01-18-2005, 06:46 AM
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sportyxls
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

I AM NOT SURE HERE BUT I WAS WONDERING ON THE WHOLE HEATING AND COOLING CONCEPT HERE GUYS SEEMS TO ME MOST JUGS OF GLOW FUEL HAVE VERY WELL SEALED LIDS AS TO NOT GET ADDITIONAL MOISTURE IN THEM AND I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT THIS THEORY WAS A LITTLE MORE POINTED AT FUEL TANKS OR OTHER CONTAINERS OF THIS NATURE THAT ARE VENTED THEREFORE MOISTURE CONTENT IN A VENTED CONTAINER WILL CHANGE WITH THE OUTSIDE AIR BUT A SEALED CONTAINER I WOULD THINK DOES NOT DO THIS. ALSO I WOULDN'T THINK THAT WATER IN THE FUEL WILL MAKE THE MOTOR RUN BETTER BUT ALSO BEING MOSTLY ALCOHOL THAT THE WATER WOULD DISOLVE AND BE EVENLY DISBURSED IN THE FUEL THEREFORE CAUSING IT TO RUN BAD ALL THE TIME NOT WAIT AND CAUSE A FLAMEOUT JUST ON A GOAROUND SOUNDS TO ME LIKE IT LOADED UP ON THE BOTTOM OR MAYBE WAS A LITTLE LEAN DEPENDING ON HOW THE FLAMEOUT WENT.
Old 01-18-2005, 01:17 PM
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john316
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

ORIGINAL: qweedqwag

Water in the fuel actually makes the engine run better, go to Google and do a search on glow fuel, water added to glow fuel actually increases power in glow engiones, so chances are it was a tuning issue. ie pilot error...sorry.


Mike.
Yeppp, you were right, glow engines do run better on water. And the reason my engine quit was believe it or not, not enough water in the fuel. I am now running the engine on pure tap water and it is putting out twice the power, runs much smoother, idles better and throttle transition is greatly improved as well. In fact, in order to save even more money, I am going to try sewer water next.
My only question is this, with all the great benefits of having water in your fuel, why do all the fuel manufacturers insist on spending so much money trying to keep it out??? It just doesn't make any sense.

John
Old 01-18-2005, 02:51 PM
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

Nice one John :-)

My experience of water in glow fuel has resulted in it going a little milky looking. When that occurs most of my glow engines run terribly. Did have one .46 that never minded though... The cause of the moisture getting into the bottle was that it was sitting around for too long in a small ex hair shampoo bottle that I used to use for fuelling .15 size motors.

If the fuel is stored in tins I have found it can sit around for years with no side effects whats so ever. In fact, the fuel I am currently flying on is five years old and is as clear as when I mixed it (buying mixed glow fuel is really expensive down here so we just buy the castor oil and methanol seperately) and the engines run great.
Old 01-19-2005, 09:20 AM
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john316
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

Update: I tried the sewer water and it does run better than regular tap water! I think it is the swamp gas effect (methane) that is giving me all the extra power. The only down side so far is that the exhaust fumes are really offensive.

John
Old 01-19-2005, 10:41 AM
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

Water can and will change the way fuel is used by the engine but you would have noticed it from the moment you started the plane (that is for sure)- And unless your fuel looked cloudy it was probably not that contaminated. Water and methanol are completely miscible (meaning that they stay in solution when mixed) But water does not mix with the castor oil which causes it to look milky. Your engine would not and should not quit unless it was loading up or out of tune.

So I would look for another cause before blaming others.

((IF)) you believe it is the hobby shop's fault (NEVER YOUR MISTAKE of course) than everyone who buys fuel WILL be having this issue just like you. Is that happening? or is it just your bottle? If that is occuyring than they owe you some fuel if not its time for an engine checkup.

How to store glow fuel
http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/.../fuelfact5.htm
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Rc_F...m_40640/tm.htm
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/hobby/hhdfuel.htm
Old 01-19-2005, 03:27 PM
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

At the risk of starting an arugument, I have to say that sitting your fuel jug on concrete has absoultely no direct effect on your fuel, especially as to water content. Something like the old myth that setting your lead acid battery on concrete causes problems. Now the later was, at one time true, until they changed the material battery cases are made of. The only effect setting a fuel container on concrete has is to act as a big thermal storage area keeping the contents near the temperature of the concrete. Now that may effect condensation inside the jug but only if it is open to the outside atmosphere.
Old 01-19-2005, 11:12 PM
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

I recall reading an R/C article from one of the top engine guru's in a major publication who added water to fuel on purpose to gauge the results. I think he added up to 10 percent if memory serves me correctly. Aside from different needle valve settings, there was very little effect on the engine operation. It certainly took me by surprise as I always sealed my container prior to leaving the field to prevent condensation. Methanol and water are used in full scale planes to prevent predetonation during maximum take off power. I wonder how one can detect water in the fuel since it mixes with methanol and remains in suspension?
Old 01-19-2005, 11:25 PM
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

The B-52 uses eight Pratt & Whitney TF33-P3 turbofans, with a water injection system to assist on takeoff. The water injection adds approximately a 17% increase to the takeoff power, also leaving the runway covered in a dense smoke screen.


This may not apply to glow fuel but for everyone that thinks water is such an enemy (think again)
Old 01-20-2005, 02:52 AM
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

so are you guys saying that all kinds of glow fuel have water in them?
Old 01-20-2005, 03:33 AM
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

I got out of the hobby in 1993 and got back into flying in 2003. While I was gathering up some of my old RC gear, I found an unopened gallon of 15% Cool Power. The jug had been sitting on the concrete floor, in my unheated shop for 10 years and had seen temperature extremes from 5 below to over 100 degrees in the summer. I thought that it wouldn't hurt to try the fuel, and to my surprise, it ran fine. When the gallon ran out, and I bought a new gallon, I didn't notice any difference except for the price on the jug.

Nashcat
Old 01-20-2005, 06:03 AM
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

It takes quite a lot of water in methanol before it won't work in our engines. As emearg said it was milky, I mix my own fuels and only use Klotz oil and have never had problems with water condinsation. I mix 25Lts at a time and is store in a drum in my shop on a couple of lengths of 4x2 timber. The only thing I do is ad the nitro as I fill my flight jug.

Cheers,
Old 01-30-2005, 06:31 PM
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Default RE: WATER IN GLOW FUEL

The water in the fuel can be removed by placing the fuel in a freezer, for several hours. The water will freeze within the fuel. Strain the cooled fuel through a filter (coffee filter) This will leave the water (ice) trapped in the filter.

But I will add the only way I ever managed to get water in my fuel was to leave the top off the jug in a rain storm.

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