Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

So what are all you guys building?
I see all these build threads on ARFs...what are you building???Or is that what a builder is these days?

No matter how much you delude yourselves you are not building, you are putting together what someone else has built.

How about call it what it is, assembling.[:@]

nitro wing

My Feedback: (1)

I am assembling this old kit,that I left on the backburner for 10 or 12 years.Built,I mean assembled a few ARF's in the last few seasons,but have created about 57 aircraft in various forms and difficulties in the last 15 or so years.
Some even disasembled themselves in flight for different reasons

greyhound man

My Feedback: (5)

I really hate it when my planes re-kit themselves.....maybe they were just suicidal or something. I don't build, I barely have enough time to "assemble" an arf.

Albatross

My Feedback: (7)

Unless you go trough major modifications, an ARF will be always an ARF to me. Don't get me wrong, still some work to be done, however nothing out of the ordinary from a builder stand point of view.

Building an RC airplane is other world by itself.

I agree, with an ARF we are just putting together what someone else has built (usually in China).

Another aspect, mastering and knowing how to built an RC airplane takes a lot of time and sometimes is frustrating. However once in a while your hard work is recognized as a RC builder.

Unless you do a lot of extra work on covering and decoration, this will be the only chance to obtain a major achievement with an ARF.
Of course this will depend of what you are looking: 1) Get yourself at the filed with a model ready to fly 2) Have fun, flying and forget about building 3) A little bit of ego, by showing your skills as a RC builder 4) or ... all of above

My beloved CAP 232, Lanier kit no ARF, won a modest price that day. The Bipe behind was also built from kit, that is a Midwest Super Stinker.

Stickbuilder

It drives me crazy too, but most of the ARF types get awfully defensive when this subject is brought up. They are like the kid who took his brother's Corvette out and showed it to his friends. To what purpose? It's not yours, so why are you so proud of it? Same with the ARF. You did not build it, why be so proud of it. I have seen guys try to pass them off as a stick build. Even with 3 other identical ones at the field at the same time. Go figure...

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

this is not a giant (only 1/5th scale) but it ain't an ARF.

Maudib

My Feedback: (51)

This is a dumb thread... been hashed over and over... and usually by people who want "more recognition" for their efforts.

If it's recognition you want then you are enjoying a completely different hobby than most. Building is relative to the individual... why is it important that you "put others in their place" so that your efforts appear more worhty than theirs.

Their are people who look at kit building with a raised eyebrow... as they DESIGNED their plane from 3 views. THey would look at kit building as ASSEMBLING some precut wood parts according to a manual. Big woop... you can squeeze a CA bottle and have muscle to sand balsa.

I for one have "scratch-built" from plans, kit built, custom covered, "assembled" ARFS and "pro-built" many planes over my short "tenure" in this hobby. And yes I do have MORE pride in the extra effort I put into the handcut parts of a beautiful Bulldog Pitts, or the "assembly" of a CG Extra 300 kit or Aeroworks 33% Edge 540 kit, than I do of "building" an ARF...

But I'm certainly not going out there and telling people... "You didn't do as much work as I did so your process shouldn't be called the same as mine." And the best flying planes I've flown are ARF's.

So give it a rest... a guy who doen't "build" a kit... is still "building an ARF" and has every right to be proud he did so.

This hobby is about appreciating and encouraging others work NOT demanding recognition and classifying others work as less of an accomplishment.

Sorry for the rant... but myself and SOOOOO many others enjoy HELPING people and posting helpful, encouraging information (on scratch, plan, kit and assembly) because we love the hobby, that these "definitive" posts simply come across as a poke in the eye of our hobby... We don't need it fellas.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Ahh, come on...What's wrong with a true builder holding themselves a bit above an assembler? It's pretty close to an engineer placing themselves above the manufacturer

jsm77777

My Feedback: (4)

Assembling an ARF is not building. If a person has the time to build, then build. If not, then you are stuck with ARF's. I prefer to build, and am not very fond of ARF's, but they do have their place in the hobby. I find it enjoyful to build a kit, or scratch build, and tweak a design to make it stronger and better. Scott

torqmeister

I was in the hobby from 1970 - 1980. Everything I flew had to be "built". At the time I was progressing in the hobby at a fast pace. Competing in Pattern, & all forms of pylon racing, I had to build a lot. I was away from the hobby for 24 yrs. I came back in 2004, and WALLA, quality ARFs are now plentiful, & getting better all the time
My real joy in the hobby is setting up an airplane properly for flight, trimming to as close to perfection as possible, and flying the living ----- out of them.
I'm 60 yrs old. My hat's off to all you builders out there. Just give me something to FLY.

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Err...

Does it really matter?

I've built from a kit, scratch built from plans, modified plans then scratch built, put together ARFs, covered and put together ARCs, and bought RTF.

Each provides its own benefits. Scratch builds and Kits give me the ability to make certain structural decisions, modify things to suit me, etc. They and ARCs let me chose the appearance of the finished product. ARFs preserve my very valuable time, save me worrying about whether a particular technique or method of doing something will work, and keep my shop a whole bunch cleaner. An RTF is at the field that day, and saves what is, to me, the most annoying part of this hobby....installing radio gear, tanks, motors, etc.

Don't get me wrong...those that say kit building is different from ARF assembly are absolutely right...and scratch building is different from kit building...and, I strongly suspect designing is different from scratch building. But, I really don't think any one of them is "better" than the others, nor do I think myself better/worse than other modelers for having flown any of them. I adore the fact that NOBODY else in the area has a Jim LeRoy Bulldog...I also adored not having to touch my consignment purchased Sig Something Extra.

*shrug*

I think these threads spend too much time "justifying" why a certain type of model or modeler is "superior" to others. Spend your time and money doing something you enjoy, and fly planes you like...and to heck with whether or not they "impress" anyone else.

rmh

It's all building -
I am -at the moment -- re engineereing a GP CAP- and have stuffed a 116 Evolution in it - I had to gut the internal structure from wing pipe forward and redo it -lots of redesign work Tho it's a ARF -a very complete ARF- I have a lot of work in it.but having grown up building performance cars n engines, Chev in Healey etc., Not a real challange
Before ARFS - I did my own planes almost exclusively- from planks of balsa and evetually making plugs for fuselages , cowls , canopys etc..That was/is a lot of work - I did a 50% bipe for a guy - a German kit and that was simply a lot of time consuming - careful. repetitive work. The worst kind to me --
My new electric powered Seagull Arf is on it's way to me - these are also fun -just getting all the erformance they can give, is fun.

aviti

My Feedback: (54)

I've spent more time "assembling" a pull pull rudder on a 35% ARF then it would take to completely frame up a 4 Star 40. Building is great when you have the time but why do you people think it is the end all be all? You tend to show that you feel lacking....perhaps in flying? "Sure, that hot dog pilot can fly but can he build???" The final assembly on most planes (radio and engine install) takes me much longer than framing one up.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer to build. But I don't view ARF's as taking the easy way out. ARF's often leave the most tedious tasks in my opinion. Canopy install, hinging, etc. Just installing cooling baffles for a twin gas motor takes more time than building a tail surface in my opinion. In fact, the final assembly often requires the most thought. In framing or covering, the instructions will tell you glue part A to part B or cover this section. In final assembly, you don't even know where you are going to install batteries due to CG for example.

Every part of finishing a plane can be challenging. Some guys enjoy this and others do not. BIG DEAL. Just shut up and enjoy.

F1race79

My Feedback: (6)

Do you build a kit or assemble a kit?
If you are a true builder, do you design, draw up your plans and then build????

Barry Cazier

My Feedback: (17)

Stickbuilder...

It seems to me that you are the one (builders/assemblers, whatever you call yourselves) that have the problem. I love ARFs because they allow me the time to participate in the hobby. I also feel they provide me a "proven" product that I am sure is safe to fly and will perform more or less as designed. The manual provides the proper CG and I'm assured the product will fly. If I assembled a kit, I'd take all the responsibility on myself. In fact...I'm going to suggest that any "stick built" kit at our club go under a strict evaluation for safety and flyability. I'm not sure I trust the "builders" planes. Afterall, what guarantee do we have that they know what they are doing? None, only their word. In fact the more I think about it...I think this is something the AMA should consider. Maybe we should have only "stick builder" fields where they sign a legal release of the safety issues of their planes. Yeah...that's a good idea. Let's divide the hobby more than it already is. Maybe then we can have this issue put to rest.

This topic has been beat to death. Beat to death. BEAT TO DEATH. It is stupid to think that a stick built plane is any better than an ARF. And I'm very proud of the ARFs I've BUILT. They are all unique to me because of the engine selection, radio gear, modifications and selections that I've done to it.

What a shame this has to keep coming up over and over and over.

I feel sorry for the guys that just can't keep from making this an issue. What would you have us ARF guys do? Give up the hobby? Is that what you want? Come on. Give it a break.

Thanks
Barry

Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

I "build" Arfs as well, what get me is I have had a collection of people recently that "Built" an arf and dont have a clue how to even put in a servo or repair their own models and get slightly grumpy when it is suggested they find out.

Really, and now Ive got guys to teach who come out with a fully assembled trainer.

Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

quote]annoying part of this hobby....installing radio gear, tanks, motors, etc[/quote]

That about sums it up

Ah well

as722

My Feedback: (1)

Andyt,

I'm totally with you on this one. Don't get me wrong I like the fact that arfs get a lot of people in the hobby that other wise could not even think of flying but it does get me mad when someone asks " did you build that or is it an arf "? I guess this is the way the hobby is going.

Albert

extratorker

My Feedback: (8)

Man, you've got some issues. Your in two seperate threads throwing jabs at ARF guys. Your quite the ambassador for the hobby. Keep up the good work!

How dare you ask why someone is proud of their ARF airplane.

The ARF guys get defensive cause their sick and tired of being berated by your type. Period.

extratorker

My Feedback: (8)

Barry, Stickbuilder seems to be on a self appointed mission to make sure us "ARF" guys know exactley how little we contribute to the hobby, except perharps towards it's demise.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_49...tm.htm#4990548

Tommy_Gun

If you are taking individual parts whether from a laser cut kit or personally cut from a sheet of balsa, and assembling them to form a larger subcomponent in a complex machine. Then you are "building"


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ld&btnG=Search



Definitions of build on the Web:

* construct: make by combining materials and parts; "this little pig made his house out of straw"; "Some eccentric constructed an electric brassiere warmer"
* build up: form or accumulate steadily; "Resistance to the manager's plan built up quickly"; "Pressure is building up at the Indian-Pakistani border"
* build or establish something abstract; "build a reputation"
* improve the cleansing action of; "build detergents"
* order, supervise, or finance the construction of; "The government is building new schools in this state"
* give form to, according to a plan; "build a modern nation"; "build a million-dollar business"
* be engaged in building; "These architects build in interesting and new styles"
* found or ground; "build a defense on nothing but the accused person's reputation"
* physique: constitution of the human body
* build up: bolster or strengthen; "We worked up courage"; "build up confidence"; "ramp up security in the airports"
* human body: alternative names for the body of a human being; "Leonardo studied the human body"; "he has a strong physique"; "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak"
* develop and grow; "Suspense was building right from the beginning of the opera"

jongurley

My Feedback: (29)

OK I guess I might as well chime in on my own, while we are confessing,,,,
I personally like ARFs, I like assembling ARFs and I like setting up radio stuff,, that is the extent of it,, but on a side note I would rather fly than do any of that (you guys can ask andyt about that),, heck if I had the money I would hire a pit crew to have my airplanes at the field and wait for me to get there, I would rather 3d and practice my IMAC than build or assemble,, ,,,, O.K. with that said I do have to clear up some things also,, as andyt said,, alot of ARF builders or assemblers or what the h e l l you call them are sort of dumb founded around here,,,in our neck of the woods anyhow,,,, buy that I mean,, If I go out the field and nock my landing gear off, I will call andyt to ask for some advice on how to fix it, but I am going to fix it myself ,,, for two reasons, 1. I will learn how to do the task 2. I don't want to worry anyone ........ that is the drift I take on this subject

aviti

My Feedback: (54)

Ever seen a kit builder (or stickbuilder if you will) take an ARF to the field? Someone asks if it is a kit or an ARF. They answer "ARF" very sheepishly then spend 10 minutes telling everyone how this is their first ARF, normally they build kits or even scratch build.......

Let me tell you something Stickbuilder. There are plenty of guys who can build better than you. Not that it is a contest but that is the point. If you enjoy building, do it for yourself because no matter how nice a model plane you built, someone has built one much better and with much more effort. I prefer building because it gives me something to do in the winter months plus I can make lightening modifications. But if I need a plane in the air quicker, hell yeh I'll buy an ARF. Just don't make up your mind that a guy with an ARF is a loser next time you see one at the field....chances are they can outbuild your butt, they just chose not to on this plane!!

tmproff

My Feedback: (5)

I am a kit builder through and through. I just spent 4 months building up a Giant Lanier Ultimate Pitts....my first Giant scale. I love the feeling of seeing a plane fly for the first time that you put so much effort into.

Now here is my most important point.

The difference between ARF builders and KIT builders is this......All the stuff that an ARF builder has to do (pick equipment, set up electronics) a KIT builder has to do as well....But the KIT builder has to do MUCH more to get the plane in the air. There is MUCH more room for error when building a KIT, and you can express your creativity much more when you build a KIT.

Do I buy ARF's? Sure I have nothing against them at all. But for people to debate that ARF's are just as much work is plain silly.

And now a shameless pic of my beautiful Ultimate Pitts:

Stickbuilder

Gee, I did not realize that this was the ARF forum... Please forgive me for the mix-up. I apologize for being in the wrong forum. I really did no know that this was the ARf forum.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

ps to aviti... name 3.

Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

I have to admit that it becomes a bit pointless when I built a certain kit and then see it Arfed for $200 more than the kit and by the time Im finished will have way more in it than that.

Done with my rant, at the recent flyins I went to there were very, very few non Arfs ( specially if you take out the warbirds) and I think its a shame as the kits will become fewer as there is no demand or money in it.

I guess it was a pointless post, sorry Ill go back to sniffing my glue.
Already decided to get the next one as an Arf an "assemble it" maybe I will get to fly during the season