Handyandy2

Hi
Just found this wonderful Concept Fleet kit at a swap meet. I would appreciate any comments on building it. I plan on using a G-38 for power. Thanks fellow fliers.

Handyandy

susquach

My Feedback: (1)

Handy,

I've built several of those. Anything in particular that you would like to know?
Can tell you that it is a very sweet flying plane, with no bad habits that I ever found. The G38 is an excellent choice, you won't be disappointed. Finished in fabric and paint, it ought to balance fairily close....that's with the dummy engine installed. Speaking of, the kinner is a chore to do well, but really is worth doing as it "makes" the nose. Use as soft a tire as you can find as the gear has no "give". The fuse may look a little spindly. but is plenty tough for normal use. You might want to do a little research on the various models produced but Fleet. I think the Finch tail group was a little more attractive than the standard. Military colors OK as the fleet was forerunner of Sparrowhawk, and rigged for Derrigible capture. Used Mason's line painted silver for rigging, it worked great. Used standard servos: two per evevator, one rudder, one each aileron. Let me know if I can follow-up with anything else. Love talking Fleets. Have some info and will be glad to forward what I have if it willl help. Ddubya

cap10b

Handyandy2,
I did a review of the Concept Kit over in that section. This is the sweetest flying bipe you will ever have. Landing is just breath taking. Enjoy. Watch the rigging and wing incedences they are very important if you fleet is to fly correctly.

JDS

Wile E

My Feedback: (2)

Bob Shatteleroe has custom sprung landing gear for the big Fleet. If they work as well as the gear for the Hangar nine Cub, your landings should be really soft and scale-like.

Bob Shattleroe Custom Gear
out of Garden City MI.
Phone: 734/261-9064
Fax: 734/261-4242

cap10b

Handy,
In order to make sure the rigging is correct you need to go over the plans and the inserts that you get with the kit. If you don't have the wings set or the emphenage incidence set !QUOT!Don't Fly the plane!QUOT! if you guess at the settings or go with something someone tells you !QUOT!Don't fly the plane!QUOT! Flying wires are not decorative on this plane they are functional. if you don't have all the flying wires installed !QUOT!Don't Fly the plane!QUOT!.
Trust me I know what I am talking about. I got my fleet from a friend who violated all the above. We fished the maiden flight out of the lake and his 50cc brand new Kavan fourstrock out of the water because they threw the plane together and didn't follow the plans. Go to the Kit Reviews and see the write up just navigate to the home page and then click on the search dialog box and parse on Concept Fleet. That should bring you to the reviews. Your fleet should come out to about 17-18 lbs bare, 20lbs if you put an interior in and paint the plane. A G-38 will pull a fleet all day long with authority swinging a 20x-6-10 prop around 7100 rpm. The last writer is correct the fleet does not like to be banged on the runway and its easy to do this if your not careful. However its also easy to make good landings every time if you practice. If you bang the runway you wont do it too many times before you have to make a new set of plywood dihedral inserts or you rip open the spar box ends. If you take care in building this plane it will give you many hours of excellent performance and you will no doubt be the center of attention at your field or anywhere you take the fleet.

Enjoy

JDS

RickVB

My Feedback: (24)

Unfortunately, Bob has relocated to Georgia, and is out of business until his new house is built. He told me at Toledo this year that he would be off the market for some time, possibly well into next year. He said he would advertise his new location when he was ready. I do hope he comes back; his gear are some of the best deals in the hobby.

RickVB

My Feedback: (24)

Whoa, wait a minute; I just got the plans and instructions from Concept this summer, and there is no mention of rigging anyplace in either that I can find. If you check back, you'll I posted a thread here asking about that. If you have instructions for the rigging, I'd sure like to get a copy of them.

My Fleet, and at least two others I know about, were built per the plans (as far as I know) without any rigging, or with just decorative rigging. The plane will definitely fly without rigging (I'm at least the fourth owner [!] of mine, and I've put at least 20 flights on it, and I don't know how many it had before I got it), but on the other hand in my opinion the wing mounting method is not the best. After using it for a while, I've decided I like the idea of a one-piece upper wing (rather than the three piece design), as it makes for a much more stable installation and it looks better, anyway. I also believe the lower wing panels should be attached to the fuse using bolts threaded into aluminum spars instead of the wood screws into plywood spars as designed. With those improvements, the plane should be fine without rigging. Note that my plane has a Q42 and four ailerons, and is very aerobatic (not that the plane is designed for that!).

As far as I can determine, there are no "reviews" of the Concept Fleet on this web site. Care to share an actual URL?

Haven't had any of those problems, but on the other hand I haven't had any really hard landings yet (knock on wood). I will say that the gear bracing wires as designed don't work very well. The joints at the wheel ends bear the whole weight of the plane on landing in tension, and since the ends only lay against the main gear wires and are wrapped and soldered, it wants to pull out of the bundle even if the joint is perfect. When I do new gear this winter (after fixing them four times this summer), I will put a loop in these wires around the main gear wire somehow, then wrap and solder. (I haven't really worked this out in detail yet.)

When landing this plane, you must bear in mind the massive frontal area it carries, which would be increased by the addition of rigging. Fight the urge to cut the power too soon, you'll need some power all the way to touchdown. Due to a fuel system snafu, I found out on my maiden flight that this plane drops like a rock without power, so take it from me, don't chop the power until after wheels are on the ground.

http://www.ribcrackers.org/albums/Ri...ailorcraft.jpg


(Result of a *VERY* lucky landing.)

No argument at all with that!


Reason for edit, to fix bad link

Wile E

My Feedback: (2)

By the way, I still have my Fleet in the box waiting patiently to be built. The Quadra 35 is powering a Pacific Aeromodels Gee Bee Y at the moment. Also have the custom landing gear, a fiberglass cowl, 6" airwheels, gauges, Williams Bros. cylinder kits (Holy Cow! look at all this stuff!) various mini key switches to use for the ignition, and a smoke pumper kit. Gee, guess I have enough accessories, time to get building!

TomCrump

I've used Bob's gear, too. Really smooths out the landings! I understand that he's moving, though. So the address and phone may not be correct.

cap10b

Rick,
You should have received a three view of the real plane and on that three view are the actual degrees of incidence for the stab the wings ect... I got my information from J.W. Jones a very experienced fleet driver who won Best in show with his Concept Fleet in Toledo or one of the other big shows a long time ago. He and I met at the Rally of Giants in Odessa Texas and we and a few others flew fleets in 25 - 30 mph winds that weekend. As you can see there are many who claim that bracing, wires, ect are not needed and maybe there are right but if you want to travel and wring your plane out the way I did and my other fleet buddies and per JW flying wires are not decorative on this plane they are mandatory. Snaps, Giant loops, Immlemans, Cuban eights, all require bracing to keep things from flying off or cracking or downright failing in flight.
Couple that with a good running G-38 or G-45 or Sachs 2.6 like I had and you will see that it needs some support. While I did not fly my plane like an Ultimate (you cant run with the geriatric crowd and slam a fleet around they will get on your case) you can do big round smooth maneuvers and attract attention.

A word to the wise no matter what people say don't fly unless you know what the wings and the stab are set to. I speak from experience. JW watched my plane fly in Odessa and he pulled me off to the side and said Son let me tell you how to set a bi-plane up before you crash or worse before you kill somebody. I'm only saying this if you want the plane to fly off the boards and trim our correctly. Romey Buckholt designed this plane true to form and it builds like the real thing. My plane was fished out of Northlake in Dallas Texas because a so called professional builder had no regard to the wings or the stab. The first owner dunked a $1100.00 Kavan twin to the bottom of the lake, we had to scuba dive to get it out. The maiden flight on the plane after I rebuilt it without rigging or bracing flew ok but no loops no anything other than around the patch and land and immediately one spar box split on landing. In that condition the plane is too fragile to do anything. I'm talking stock condition with no mods strictly to the plans.

Im sorry I dont have specific numbers to give to you because they are all in JW's head and I dont think he wrote anything down but I do remember he constantly refered to the scale drawings of the real plane and told me thats what you go by. something like 5 degrees positive on the bottom wing and 2 degrees on the top and dont remember what the stab is but the tail should not drag in a turn if it does put more positive incedinence in the stab.

As far as one piece, two piece ........dont mater your going to spend 1/2 setting up and 1/2 taking it down....
just a fact of life get used to it.

LOL

Ps-Seen some use a Jig so the struts dont have to come off, good idea saves time and cuts down on setting up and tearing down. now your at 15 minutes up and down........LOL

JDS

RickVB

My Feedback: (24)

DDubya, who has built several Fleets, told me "top wing should have 1 degree of pos. incidence. Lower wing has 1.25 degree positive, and horizontal should have about 1/8" shim under the leading edge for starters", and adjust from there depending on how it performs. To be honest, I haven't even measured mine, let alone adjusted it, but then again I *am* the fourth owner.

As to the wing setup, I have a Tiger Moth with jigs for each wing pair, with eyebolts to hang the rigging on, so that the srtuts can stay on. As you say, this is very handy for shortening assembly and for transport. Of course, this won't work if your top wing is one piece...

LMProd

I was reading this post and have two questions.

What is the length of the fuselage ?

How are the wings attached, are they two piece ?

Thanks,

RickVB

My Feedback: (24)

Length of 1/4 scale is about 67". Plans show the lower wing as two pieces, attached via two ply spars through the fuse that slide into boxes in the wings and are fastened with wood screws from the panel bottoms through adjoining blocks. The top wing is designed as a three piece, with the center section being bolted to the cabanes, and the outer sections fastened as with the lower wing. As I said, my plane was built with a single piece upper wing; at the field I assemble the bottom wings, then bolt the top wing to the cabanes, and then attach the interplane struts between them.

LMProd

Hi Rick,

Thanks for your quick responce and all the information. I'm going to contact the concept models and purchase one.

Novi must be a nice place these. I used to live in Livonia, Michigan.

Now I deal with all the crazyness of Los Angeles. Would not recommend living in LA.

Thanks Again,

Gary

RickVB

My Feedback: (24)

Actually, the Detroit area traffic is beginning to remind me of LA the last time I was out there. Of course, that was in 1978...

LMProd

I am thinking very seriously on diving into one of these. I have one question, are the ailerons only located in the bottom wing. I have been looking at pictures but can’t tell.

Everyone seems to like this plane. I am a slow builder, that will give me plenty of time to practice with a ARF Tiger moth bi plane or something similar. I don’t want to be practicing with the fleet.

Thanks.
Gary

RickVB

My Feedback: (24)

Gary, yes the design (and the prototype) call for ailerons on the bottom wing only. However, since the upper and lower outer panels are identical (there's only two drawn on the plan), nothing prevents you from putting them on the top wing also (mine has them). Makes the model much more aerobatic, but the rest of the plane really isn't up to that so why bother.

Plane is very docile and easy to fly, just remember you must use the rudder with a design like this, and that without power it drops like a rock, so leave power on right up to touchdown.

LMProd

One of the postings mentions military colors for a Fleet Biplane.
Is there a book or web site that’s has examples of the military colors?

Thanks,
Gary

_WIT_

LMProd,

You might take a look at some of these:

http://www.aerofiles.com/_fleet.html

http://www.eaa231.org/Museum/Fleet/Fleet.htm

http://users.ntplx.net/~flyboy/

I've got the wings near completion on my Fleet, going to start the fuselage today. Several guys on RCU have Fleets, and have been helpful to me in providing information. That reminds me, I need to email Rick VB again for more info.

LMProd

HI WIT,

THANKS FOR THE GREAT SITES.

I am thinking of going with the Canadian Trainer colors. I stopped by Bob Bankas Documentation booth at the AMA show and he had a photo pack on the same plane from your sites. I don't know how scale I want to go or have time for but this is a great start.

Thanks again,

Gary

RickVB

My Feedback: (24)

Hey Gary, did you ever end up getting a Concept Fleet?

LMProd

Hi Rick,

Yes, I purchased the 1/4 Scale Fleet from Concept Models. Still in the box. Looks like a great project. Hope to start building it soon.


Gary

hooker53

My Feedback: (106)

Hey RickVB, Glad to Finally find someone that has flown one of these Concept fleets. I am a proud owner of one of these but have some questions also. When I Rec. mine I did not get any plans with it so working kinda blind. I did notice that both my top wings have wash out in them. Is this correct for this kit or is this the reason that the last owner crashed??? Ha. HA. I'm also trying to come up with a better way to att. the wing struts (after I build a set) to the top wing with a hinge system so all i have to do is make a connection on the bottom wing. I have to find out where and how to Bal. the CG on a bibe of this size also. I'm thinking of putting a First Place 3.2 on mine since I have one lying around. I know it's overkill but the thing is not much heavier than alot of 2.4s. Thanks for any info Hooker53.

Ed

The incidences stated here in the quote seem rather high, and I have always felt that the upper wing should have fractionally more incidence then the bottom wing, maybe with the bottom wing being about 1 degree. What are your feelings on this ?

2 - Using a G-38, is it necessay to put the servos in the tail for Balance ?

3 - Are the cabane struts glued permanently in place, or are they just allowed to float within the fuselage holes ?

I'm just getting back on my Fleet after spending many months on other projects, and I want to get it right.

Thanks for your comments.

> Jim

_WIT_

Hooker53, the plans call for the CG just in front of the top front cabane attachments - from the front of the wire to about 3/4" fore of that. The plans don't call for any washout whatsoever on either wing, although I did put about 1/2 degree on my lower wing. Also, I took Rick VB's advice, and made my top wing as a solid wing, rather than three pieces.

Jim - I'm close to balancing mine, I also have a G38 installed, and I placed the servos in the tail at the location shown on the print. I've got the wings and the tail surfaces covered, hinged, and bolted on, and to balance it I may also need to place the batteries for the receiver, smoke system, and video system at the tail, along with about 1/2 of a red brick...

I set the lower wing incidence from about zero (relative to the top spruce longerons) at the outboard to about 1/2 degree positive at the inboard. I'm still fighting cabanes on the top wing attach points, but I expect to come out with about 1 degree negative on the top wing. I've searched a lot - seems to be two schools of thought on decalage. Some say to go about 1 degree positive on the top wing incidence relative to the lower wing to stall the top wing first, thus taming the stall and maintaining aileron effectiveness by keeping the bottom wing flying as the top wing stalls. And others say that years of experience and many models later have taught them to stick with a bit of negative on the top wing, due to the airflow influence between the staggered top and bottom wings. I decided to go with the voice of experience (a bit of negative on the top wing), even though the previous explanation made sense. The manual that comes with the Concept 1/4 scale kit also says "if the model scallops, shim up the trailing edge of the top wing", indicating that negative decalage may improve the flying experience. I should be flying it before the snow flies - I'll post here and let you know the results (I've heard that before too, but I surely will post results).

Feel free to email or PM me, sharing our experiences together we can probably do better than separately. Stay in touch - let's get/keep these graceful old bipes flying.