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Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Old 03-08-2011, 08:34 PM
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Default Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Okay, so I have a new Saito FG57T gas engine. I started it up today for the first time, all went well, for a few moments until I noticed that exhaust was coming out of only (1) exhaust pipe.....better shut it down and figure what is going on, right? Here are my observations, the exhaust and oil (2 stroke oil added to gasoline at a recommended ration of 20:1, for break in) come out of the left cylinder only, as witnessed by the stain left on the driveway and on my hand when placed behind both exhaust pipes. I assume that only (1) cylinder is working; could be a bad spark plug in right cylinder, could be a bad ignition line in right cylinder.....okay, switch ignition lines from right to left (in the Saito manual it states that it doesn't matter how you hook up the ignition lines); guess what? the left cylinder still fires and more exhaust and oil come out of exhaust pipe; okay, must be a bad plug in right cylinder, take right plug out and install it in left cylinder, hmmmm, all things are a go and the left cylinder (once again) emits exhaust and oil. So, I now know that, the ignition lines work and both spark plugs work (as both were tested on the left cylinder and exhaust and oil came out of the exhaust pipe); one last test, how about start the engine and remove the ignition line from the right cylinder and see what the left cylinder does, well, it is firing and the engine can run on this one cylinder (truly a surprise and not expected), however, there isn't any oil residue coming out of this (the right) exhaust pipe, nor, is there any exhaust (visual) coming out of this right exhaust pipe.

My question is this; Is it possible that all of the visual exhaust gas and oil only come out of the left cylinder? Even though both cylinders are running and each has its own exhaust pipe, exiting from similar locations, although, two independent cylinder heads. Obviously, I'm not that familiar with twin gassers and hope that someone can tell me, "Oh, ya, there should be more exhaust (visual) and oil coming out of the left cylinder, that is common and expected". Hopefully, I just don't understand the complexities of this cool little 57cc gas engine.

Thanks in advance for any input!

Mike
Old 03-09-2011, 02:53 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

First of all i'm jealous but will stick to my 300 twin because nitro smells better you cannot have any fuel to the non firing cylinder sounds like?
Old 03-09-2011, 03:20 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Do both cylinders get hot?

It may be the left cylinder isn't firing. This is not a nitro engine, the oil burns in a gas engine, (except for Bel-Ray), so the oil and smoke coming out of the cylinder tells me it's not firing.
Old 03-09-2011, 06:30 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Remove the valve rocker box covers on the right cylinder, and make sure that the inlet valve and the exhaust valves are opeing and closing. Also check to make sure after each valve closes, there is some clearance between the rocker arm and the valve stem.

Ken
Old 03-09-2011, 07:09 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

I like the smell of Nitro too, but this really is a nice looking and sounding engine. I know it doesn't seem right putting such a large engine in a "smaller" aircraft but I didn't want to retain some of the scale-ness of the model with realistic sound.

The engine is firing on both cylinders (even though I didn't believe so) but my concern is still this, there is visually more exhaust smoke coming out of the left cylinder and when you put your hand down behind the muffler it gets covered with oil rather quickly. Just the opposite with the right cylinder, hardly any oil and no visible exhaust gas, however, the cylinder is getting hot and I would be perfectly happy with everything except that I don't see any oil or exhaust smoke coming out of the right cylinder.

Therefore, I'm just curious if the possibility exists that the engine is plumbed in such a way that most of the oil and visual exhaust can exit the left exhaust pipe. Honestly, it wouldn't "appear" to be possible, but I don't know that much about twin gassers......learning, though.

I have taken off the rocker covers and adjusted them per spec with the supplied feeler gauge, very sensitive. Also, I have been messing with the high speed and low speed needles and it is also very sensitive.

I'm in the process of posting a youtube video of the initial startup of the engine, it is in HD and looks like it is going to take about 5 hours to upload. I'll post the link here when it is up and working.

Thanks for the suggestions thus far, still searching for a answer as to why there is such a difference in the amount of "ejecta" coming out of left cylinder vs. right cylinder.

Mike
Old 03-09-2011, 07:19 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

I am thinking of getting one of these engines, so very interested in how this all pans out.
Have you called Horizon Tech Support about this??

Del
Old 03-09-2011, 11:24 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Yes, I have contacted Horizon Tech support, not one single tech person has even seen this engine and they are wanting me to send it in so they can check out the situation. They claim that I am the first person to express any issues with the engine and no known issues exist with the engine. I didn't have as much information about what is really going on with the engine when I contacted them so as of now I'm going to type away on this forum and see what I can find out before I send it in.

I believe that the right cylinder would have seized by now if it wasn't getting the proper lube, I have run almost a 500cc tank of fuel through it now and the cylinder temps "feel" the same temperature (more or less). I assume the right cylinder head would be extremely hot if it was just metal to metal for a tank of fuel. I would guess the engine has run for almost 15 minutes, with a few bursts of full throttle and maybe 3/4 throttle held on for 20 seconds here and there.

I'm having trouble uploading video to youtube, still working on that. I have been trying to upload HD video for over 4 hours and it is only at 12% for a 4 minute video. Need to reformat or something.

The engine looks and sounds great, I just don't feel good about the lack of "lube" coming out of the exhaust pipe. I'm wondering if there is a chance the "lube" can be routed to (1) cylinder after it makes it's rounds through the rockers and wherever else "lube" is needed. So confused!

Mike
Old 03-09-2011, 12:13 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

That's interesting, Horizons web site says that engine isn't going to be out till late March.
Guess they came out a little early.
So, you may be the only one that's bought one so far and naturally they won't have any
other complants so far .

Del
Old 03-09-2011, 12:30 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Here is the link to a youtube video that I just posted. This is the very first start up of this engine. I'll get better video of the oil content coming out of the left cylinder, meanwhile, enjoy the southing sounds of Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktvGCschkwM
Old 03-09-2011, 12:50 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Looks and sounds real nice...........

Del
Old 03-09-2011, 04:07 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Here is a new youtube video link that demonstrates my concern! Help!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH11tmka8BQ

Thanks,

Mike
Old 03-09-2011, 05:29 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

That looks bad. Black like that is usually aluminum rubbing, not good. I bet the piston is shot. Maybe a bad plating job on the cylinder.
Old 03-09-2011, 08:09 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Well, I think it is just oil from the 20:1 mix coming out of the "good" cylinder. I'm using H1R two stroke oil, a high quality product. The problem is with the cylinder that isn't emitting anything (guessing), because with the left cylinder emitting oil (again, from the gas to oil mix of 20:1) I know that it is getting "lube" and I know that it is firing because of the warmth of the cylinder (barely touchable after running for a few minutes) and the fact that there is a noticeable exhaust gas (white colored smoke) coming from the exhaust pipe, although, the right side is "noticeably" hotter, not scorching, just hotter, I would suspect, that, the metal to metal rubbing would produce more heat, not less. And, when you swipe your finger through the residue on the notepad, it is oily, not abrasive metal shavings, nor any odd smell. It may appear "black" in the video, however, it is more of a red color, similar to the color of the oil that I have added to the gasoline, per Saito. If the piston was shot, I assume complete failure of the entire engine and it wouldn't run, at the very least, very well.

Again, my concern is the fact that there isn't any oil (lube) coming out of the right exhaust pipe.

Mike
Old 03-09-2011, 10:03 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

To me the right cylinder looks correct. The fact that the left isn't as hot would say it's not firing, just heating by compressing the mix.

I had a Saito 170R3 that they had the #2 cylinder's cam 360* out of time, so you might want to check the cam timing.

Have you tried to run it with one cylinder's spark plug wire off? If you do that it will tell you which cylinder is making the power. I wouldn't just take the cap off though, I'd put the removed cap on a spare plug and ground the plug to be safe from overheating the ignition.
Old 03-10-2011, 05:32 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Yes, I have taken the spark plug wire off of both cylinders, on at a time. To my amazement, the left would continue to work and versa visa. Is it possible for one cylinder to work (in this case the right) without the left cylinder's spark plug attached (just the right) and continue to run, even if it wasn't getting much, if any, fuel to the right cylinder? Because, when I had the engine running I simply removed the left spark plug lead from the left cylinder and the engine did continue to run just on the right cylinder, although, the same concern still exists, no visible exhaust or oil coming out of the right cylinder. Then, I replaced the left cylinders plug lead and removed the right one; the engine continued running just on the left cylinder but was ejecting exhaust (visible) and oil.

Still confusedjavascript:void(AddText('[:@]','_image/s6.gif'))
Old 03-10-2011, 05:39 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Oh, thanks for the spark plug tip of using a spare to keep the ignition from overheating, I hadn't thought of that.

Also, one more thing about my situation. Even though both cylinders get "hot" the right tends to be hotter (always) and if I check the exhaust elbow (right where the exhaust comes out of the cylinder there is a 90* elbow) both of them are very hot, making me believe that both cylinders are firing. If they are both firing I don't understand why there isn't anything coming out of the right exhaust pipe.

Mike
Old 03-10-2011, 12:06 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Ihave the Saito 300 twin glow engine - it runs pretty much the same way as your gasser and always has. The single carb and manifold just has never fed the cylinders equally - one is always a bit richer than the other. Two other guys that Ifly with also have the `300.... same with their's.Had the engine a lot of years, run it a fair amount.... seems to be okay that way.It appearsthat thegasversion may be the same way?

The "solution"for the glow engine was the twin-carb version of the engine so each cylinder can be tuned separately. Both the single and dual-carb versions are both still offered by Saito so Iguess it's never been so much of an issue that they would discontinue the single-carb. For the single carb engine all we could ever do is set it so that the more-lean cylinder was rich enough to be "good", and the richer-cylinder was... well.... "richer"!

Keep us posted - I've been thinking of getting one of the new 57cc Saitos and am interested in what you may find out.

Thanks

Barry
Old 03-11-2011, 05:52 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Thanks for some good news, I've been wondering if I'd ever hear from someone that has similar engine with similar issue and what you say leads me to believe I can at least continue the break-in process and not worry about burning this thing down and the last thing I want to do is send it in and have them say nothing is wrong. Especially, since none of the techs at Horizon have even held one of these engines, how would they know what they are doing? When I called Horizon the guy I talked to told me he was talking with the tech department and not one person there was familiar with the engine how could this be possible? Crazy, I tell you. I took the whole thing apart yesterday and couldn't identify any problems, just going to give it the gas and go for it.

I think it has potential as a super sweet engine, I just wish I understood the beast a bit better. I have a good grasp on it's inner workings now and feel fine about taking the chance of using it, in it's current condition. After one 500cc tank of fuel the inside looks good as new, you wouldn't even think it had been run at all.

I will look into the dual carb possibilities.

Thanks again!

Mike
Old 03-11-2011, 09:33 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question


ORIGINAL: bhall01

The single carb and manifold just has never fed the cylinders equally - one is always a bit richer than the other.
I'd almost bet a million dollars that this is the case. Tune it so that the leanest cylinder is ok. One's just getting a more dense air/fuel combo and the black is the unburned oil from the less efficient cylinder.
Old 03-11-2011, 05:04 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

So, here is my final report, I ran another tank of fuel through this engine with all settings carefully adjusted and today I had one of those laser temp gauges to monitor cylinder temps. I wasn't exactly gentle with the engine today and ran it up and down with a lot of mid throttle running. I set the low speed and high speed needle to achieve best overall performance at this stage of the game. I was surprised to see some interesting cylinder head temps, the left cylinder was basically 30*F cooler than the right but only at moderate throttle and idle, the rest of the time they were actually pretty darn close, 10*F difference here and there. Here is the catch, the left cylinder still is the only one that is ejecting oil and visible exhaust, the oil is constant and the exhaust comes and goes depending on throttle setting and or advancing of throttle from idle, mid and high throttle, no visible exhaust but oil is always present, right exhaust always clean and free of oil and visible exhaust. You got me as to what is going on in this engine but I'm starting to restore my faith in my choice of engine.

Headed out to the desert of Southern Utah for spring break, I'll report more when I get back and when I've flown it around.

Thanks for all the help!

Mike
Old 03-11-2011, 05:21 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Hey Mike,

You've really done a lot of work trying to sort this out.

As much talk that has been going on here with this issue,
I have to believe that people from Horizon has been following this.

What do you say guys, what's the answer here, If you don't know, how about asking your people from
Saito, after all you work for them?????
A lot of us would really like this engine, but we want it "right".

Del
Old 03-11-2011, 07:37 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

Del,

I'd love to think that the guys at Horizon were tapping into this thread and trying to figure out what to say and do about something like this and I'd really enjoy talking with the guys that designed this engine, moreover, I'd like to know some real solid information as to why the left cylinder ejects so much residue and the right doesn't, I'm guessing it has been designed this way. I talked with a guy named Herrison Wang that has this engine in a Sukoi and claims to deal with the same issue. He even can hear a leak in the intake valve and attributes the odd behavior to abnormal combustion. Ultimately, however, when I just went for broke today and ran the engine pretty hard and had some good temps to compare, I kind of got a feeling that this engine is just like some of the other twins with single carbs and it has it's odd behaviors but in the end it works (somehow and without explanation, sort of like a bumble bee flying) it just works. Perhaps I have tried to over think the situation, I have to be honest, when I saw the cylinder temps at almost exactly the same at full throttle, I thought to myself, maybe there isn't anything wrong with this engine. It actually started sounding better and running better the harder I ran it. I can only hope for the best and today was promising. I'm at the point where I want the engine to fail so I can say something like "See, I told you so, there was something wrong", in reality, I think I'm going to run this engine harder and harder and it will just keep on rotating the prop; keeping my fingers crossed here!

Mike

P.S. I'll post more thoughts and video in the future, hopefully it will all be good and positive. The engine is an incredible piece of work and the sounds coming out of it today were nothing less than inspiring.
Old 03-29-2011, 07:28 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question

looks like no issues with it running well
That engine sounds great in-person..
Old 03-29-2011, 07:29 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question


I believe the statement about the saito 300 twin is correct.....
I have an OS 1.60 twin Gemini, with ignition.... but running on glow fuel...
This engine clearly has the same issue as yours.... I can have one cyl. Spitting oil everywhere, and the other hardly any at all....
It is at the is setting, that it is quite leaned out... but runs fine at this setting all day long....

When dealing with 1-carb shared between 2-cyls you will ALWAYS have 1-cyl richer, 2nd cyl leaner....
It is the way it is.... Unless you have 2-carbs...1-for each cyl...

It is the same issues with the big gas radial engines....
I bet, if I took off the exhaust collector on a moki 215cc gas radial, I could see the bottom cyls emitting oilus fumes, while the top 2=cyls would have none...
It is not at all unordinary to have 20-30 deg. differences in temperatures between them...
This fits right inline with your saito gas twin... The temp. Variance, that is...

Also...Note....
The saito ignitions can take a 7.4 volt lipo, unregulated....
Not sure if you should use the petroleum based or synthetic....
For the moki, they now recommend the synthetic oils...
One other thing...When new, these engines (usually) have that black Molybeam grease on the conrod, valves, and valve train...
This will contribute to the black oooze...

Keep an eye on the exhaust port of the richer cyl. And make sure it doesn't become gunked up....
Mine did, and I wasn't even running gasoline.... but a synthetic, with castor... (Probly added too much of it)

Some of the successful runners of the saito fg-36 used petroleum oils at 20-1 and others with full synthetic....
Not sure what is best....But on the moki you can run 50-1 and this is quite lower compared to the saito...
Some say the synthetics harden and the petroleum based just wipe off??

I can't remember what my motocross bike engine looked like from the Bell ray mix I used....
I think it was hardened...and didn't wipe off... so not sure anymore...

I am going to convert my os Gemini to gas.... I will use 1-carb per cyl...It is the best way to run it....but not the only way....
Cheers...

Old 03-29-2011, 07:36 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57T 57cc gas engine question


ORIGINAL: Jichal

Del,

I'd love to think that the guys at Horizon were tapping into this thread and trying to figure out what to say and do about something like this and I'd really enjoy talking with the guys that designed this engine, moreover, I'd like to know some real solid information as to why the left cylinder ejects so much residue and the right doesn't, I'm guessing it has been designed this way. I talked with a guy named Herrison Wang that has this engine in a Sukoi and claims to deal with the same issue. He even can hear a leak in the intake valve and attributes the odd behavior to abnormal combustion. Ultimately, however, when I just went for broke today and ran the engine pretty hard and had some good temps to compare, I kind of got a feeling that this engine is just like some of the other twins with single carbs and it has it's odd behaviors but in the end it works (somehow and without explanation, sort of like a bumble bee flying) it just works. Perhaps I have tried to over think the situation, I have to be honest, when I saw the cylinder temps at almost exactly the same at full throttle, I thought to myself, maybe there isn't anything wrong with this engine. It actually started sounding better and running better the harder I ran it. I can only hope for the best and today was promising. I'm at the point where I want the engine to fail so I can say something like ''See, I told you so, there was something wrong'', in reality, I think I'm going to run this engine harder and harder and it will just keep on rotating the prop; keeping my fingers crossed here!

Mike

P.S. I'll post more thoughts and video in the future, hopefully it will all be good and positive. The engine is an incredible piece of work and the sounds coming out of it today were nothing less than inspiring.
I think the engines WILL run better the Faster you run them....WHy?? Because the flicking action of the crank weight helps with atomization...= better fuel distrubution...

Correct me if I am wrong??/ But Radial gas engines, when new, it is illadvised to leave the engine idle around long at all...Ill advised actually ...

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