Thanks Gary. I downloaded the gear plans you posted and will study them. it would be easy to re-size them. Thanks for your answer

TomC.

Darrell does great work, but he is not timely. It took 10 months to get mine. Worth the wait, however. The gear is perfect and has proven to be very robust. The springs Darrell provided proved to be to stiff for the correct compression when the model was sitting. I cut the springs in half so that the bottom half of the extension is un-sprung. Works well.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=1957235

i got my short kit from Arizona Modelers. It did take 3 months, but everything looks ok. I wasn't in a hurry, so i wasn't upset. i hope the model is worth it.

I am wondering, how difficult would it be to convert the Garry allen plans to be a BU 131 Jungman? I really want that inline Tiger moth nose. I confess I need to do some more research as I am not clear on the differences. I just received a set of the 1/4 scale plans last week from MAN.

I have the easy tiger 1/3 jungmann and have flown it a lot. It is a great flying model. You might want to get one of them. I'll probably recover mine more scale when it gets more worn.

I really would rather build one. Thanks for the info though.

Verticle.........I seem to remember that Gary Allen has built a Jungmann. See post #927 above. I do not know if he has published the plan. You might consider sending him a PM. He is gallen on this thread.
Richard

I have one of the Gary Allen plans myself built by Clyde Williams. Have not flown it yet, but looking forward to it.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2038281

Verticle, the Jungmann and Jungmeister are closely related. The Jungmann is a two seat basic trainer introduced in 1933, and the Jungmeister, a single seat advance trainer, two years later. The Jungmeister shares the same tail, except the rudder is slightly enlarged, landing gear and wing ribs. The wing and ailerons are reduced in span. The fuselage is quite different, being shorter and with a different cabane arrangement. Also, all but the original prototype featured the Siemens radial engine. The prototype, D-EVEO, Featured the in line Hirth engine, like the Jungmann.

If it is the cowl shape that is your primary interest, I suggest the easiest approach would be to model the Hirth powered Jungmeister prototype. I have attached the Cox 3-views.

As far as I can tell, you could construct the fuselage per the plan. You would then need to construct a motor box to attach to the firewall, then build the cowl in situ. Attached are a few photos detailing how I did this for my Jungmann. The narrowness of the cowl required a custom muffler arrangement. I had this done by J'Tech. Very reasonable cost and rapid turn around, BTW.
The Jungmann plans are not published. They are very crude and to make them publication worthy is too much like work!

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2038684http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2038685http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2038686http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2038687http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2038688http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2038689http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2038690
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2038679

Hi all,

After reading this thread....several times!...I ordered Gary's plans and hope to be starting a build real soon.

After looking at documentation, one of the interesting features of this aircraft is the way that the elevator is hinged. The plans show a standard style hinge line but I believe I read someplace that Gary had a scale type elevator hinge on his competition version.

I'm curious if anyone has built a scale type elevator hinge on their Jungmeister and how it affected the flight characteristics. Also, are there any issues with strength/durability or servo loading?

Thanks for all the info in this thread.

Bryan

You are quite right, Bryan.

The scale hinge is sort of offset.

There is a British 1/3 Jungmeister plan which shows this. I'll see if I can locate my copy (too many plans, too many locations - another tas, to locate all plans, properly catalog and file for ready access), scan that section and post it for you here.

My plan is to redraw gary's plan to include this feature for my build.

Even better, Bryan.

Here's a link to the pic of the stab and elevators from Paolo Severin's super scale bird, clearly showing the offset hinges and another showing the regular hinges on the fin and rudder::

http://www.paoloseverin.it/Bucker/files/page47-1009-full.htm
l
http://www.paoloseverin.it/Bucker/fi...1008-full.html

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2060544http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2060547

Thanks do335a. I would like to see a scan of those plans. I have a general idea of the shape and location from some documentation pics I have but seeing 1/3 scale plans would really tie it all together for me.

My main concern is strength and durability, as well as the load on the elevator servos. With the leading edge dipping down into the airflow it seems like there could be potential for extra loading on the servo. Of course, it could be just the right amount and actually aerodynamically balance and reduce the servo load.

Another question would be trim and elevator centering issues. I don't want the elevator trim to not "lock in" at neutral. I'm hoping to realize the aerobatic potential of the Jungmeister and don't want to screw up the flight characteristics just to look cool.

When are you starting your Jungmeister build?

Bryan

I have seen the Paolo Severin site....quite impressive. I have also seen a flight video somewhere and it seems that everything worked fine on his.

I'm just a little leery tampering with the elevator. It's one of those mandatory items.

With the offset elevator hinges, you will not increase the load on your servos. You will decrease it. The forward part of the control surface which overhangs the hinge line is an aerodynamic balance. Works the same as the part you often see on a rudder with the top which is forward of the hinge line. Same as elevator tips.

Unfortunately, my scanner is not big enough to scan the part of the plan which you are referring to without destroying the plan. The post mark on the envelope shows that I go it back in 1989. It's very fragile now since these things were not reproduced on acid free paper.

In any case, the design is by John Greenfield. In the upper left corner, is the Radio Modeler Plans Service logo.

If you go back to page 28 and check from post 688 and on, you'll catch up on some info regarding his design and how the elevator turned out with the offset hinge line.

As to when I'll start my build, consider this. I've had John' Greenfield's plan since mid 1989. I've had Gary Allen's plans almost since MAN published them in 2000. Had planned on starting a couple of years ago. That got pushed back to this past fall. So far, I've accumulated hardware, wheels and so forth. Most importantly, since I plan on using my Zenoah G62 engine, I picked up one of Toni Clark's intake manifolds so that the carb will not hang out of the cowl.

That puts me on track to start in the fall of 2015.

Hi Bryan,
I did do scale hinging in my 35% Bucker Jungmann, which has the same stab-elevator as the Jungmeister in the full scale aircraft. It was not too difficult, especially since I had access to an uncovered full scale and actual factory drawings. I don't have any plans, but it is not too difficult. I have attached a few construction photos of my approach, I used 1/16 inch brass sheet for the arms and 1/8 inch I,D, brass tubing and rod stock. I have also attached the pattern I used for the arm; It should be exactly 1/3 scale.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061216http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061217http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061218http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061219http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061220http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061221http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061222http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061223http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061224
This hinging method had proved very robust, with around 100 flights and no slop at all. I also cannot see any difference in flight behavior between the two hinging methods. Of course I don't have a direct comparison since the conventional hinging is on the Jungmeister and the scale hinging is on the Jungmann,.

I hope this helps,
Gary

Gary,

Yes it does. Thank you very much for the pictures and also the drawing. It will be easy to print it out to scale with the ruler in the picture. Great idea!

That is a beautiful and robust installation. Based on your information I am going to go the same route.

Questions: Do you have an access hatch on the underside of the elevator to access the hinge pin or is it buried? Also, how do you cut 1/16 sheet brass? I've worked with sheet aluminum quite a bit and cut it on my bandsaw but I don't think that will work with brass.

Thanks again Gary for your help,

Bryan

BU133 elevator hinges
 

Here's how John Greenfield did it.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061604http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061605http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061606

Bryan,
I used a jeweler's saw (X-Acto, I think.) The original Buckers used a zipper on the bottom of the elevator to provide access to the hinge. Current practice is to dope a triangular piece of fabric that can be removed if access to the hinge area is required. That is what I did.

Thanks do335a for the plans view.

Thanks Gary. Haven't used one of those yet.

On all the documentation pictures I have, including a really good walkaround set I have never seen the zipper on the bottom of the elevators....just the big one on the left aft fuselage. That sounds pretty cool. As a long time full scale pilot...I've even owned a fabric covered plane years ago...I've never heard of zippers on an aircraft and now this one has them all over. I'm learning all kinds of new things here.

I'm really looking forward to starting on my Jungmeister. Hopefully just a few more weeks.

Thanks again guys,

Bryan

Hi Bryan,

I have hundreds of pics of Jungmen and Jungmeisters I scarfed off the internet. Some have it on the elevator, some don't. One thing certain, every one is different! My opinion is if you like it as a detail, add it. Different story if you're a serious competitor...

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061710http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061711http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061712http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2061713

Dave

Hi all,

this is a wonderfull thread. I just found it in the net and decided to registre mysleve.
First: I wish all a wonderfull 2015 with a lot of successfull flights.

I am lookingf for a Bücker Jungmeister which fits to my saito R3 84cc. I thouht I order a Arizona 1/3 kit. No I am not sure any more, because Jaime von Arizona send me a mail saing, that his 1/3 Jungmeister is for 38-45cc gas engines. On the other hand, Severins Bücker is the same size (weight on Severins website up to 40lbs) and designed for 100-150cc engines.
Any idea if a saito R3 84cc would fit to Arizona´s 1/3 kit?

Volker

Slco,
I'm building a 29% Hostetler Bucker,1770 sq. inches wing area,20/24 lbs.I'm putting a DLE 60 twin,they recommend a G-62.I think it would be a better fit.jeffo

My opinion Hostetler has the wrong airfoil on that plane. He has a semi symetrical air foil for some odd reason?
The full sized plane has a clark y type air foil and flies just great.
My friend built this plane and it was marginal on power with a Saito 5 cyl radial. Had the plane been built 1. light as it could easily be and 2. had the right airfoil it would be a much better plane.

Bob,
You are absolutely correct,I changed the airfoil.The plans were designed around 1980,a dated design,slab sides and tail feathers.For me,it was no big deal to modify the plans,the outline was still what I wanted.jeffo