83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
10-14-2004, 02:22 AM
#26
RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
mookie1:
Aha! Found you hiding out in the electric forums.
You can run but you can't hide from the Brotherhood of the P-38.
I'm still fascinated by your project. I'm disappointed, but not surprised you haven't flown it yet. Not surprised because that's part of the rites of passage: there are so many things to go wrong on a P-38 that it sometimes seems impossible to reduce the entropy of the universe enough to get it safely in the air. We've all suffered it: RV Man crashed his first 38 on maiden, I crashed my VQ eighth flight, both due to engine out. It took me about 1-1/2 years AFTER I "finished building" to fly my first P-38, a Yellow, for a variety of technical and emotional issues. But she still lives.
Soon, Little Grasshopper, you will learn that to be a Brother you must develop a certain Disdain for Danger, and consequentially a hard-nosed Rebuilding Recidivism. In fact, you cannot truly join the Brotherhood till you have stood and wept over the remains of a fork-tailed devil.
What I'm trying to say is: Good Luck and Keep Us Posted! Please post a note on the old Twins thread when you maiden so all us ol' piston-heads can know how it went.
Just flew my latest project: a 45 lb Ziroli P-61 with twin G-62's. Now that would be one heck of an electric conversion project! VQ's P-61 is due out sometime this winter and would be somewhat smaller. The P-61 airframe flies the weight a lot more gently than a P-38.
mt
Aha! Found you hiding out in the electric forums.
You can run but you can't hide from the Brotherhood of the P-38.
I'm still fascinated by your project. I'm disappointed, but not surprised you haven't flown it yet. Not surprised because that's part of the rites of passage: there are so many things to go wrong on a P-38 that it sometimes seems impossible to reduce the entropy of the universe enough to get it safely in the air. We've all suffered it: RV Man crashed his first 38 on maiden, I crashed my VQ eighth flight, both due to engine out. It took me about 1-1/2 years AFTER I "finished building" to fly my first P-38, a Yellow, for a variety of technical and emotional issues. But she still lives.
Soon, Little Grasshopper, you will learn that to be a Brother you must develop a certain Disdain for Danger, and consequentially a hard-nosed Rebuilding Recidivism. In fact, you cannot truly join the Brotherhood till you have stood and wept over the remains of a fork-tailed devil.
What I'm trying to say is: Good Luck and Keep Us Posted! Please post a note on the old Twins thread when you maiden so all us ol' piston-heads can know how it went.
Just flew my latest project: a 45 lb Ziroli P-61 with twin G-62's. Now that would be one heck of an electric conversion project! VQ's P-61 is due out sometime this winter and would be somewhat smaller. The P-61 airframe flies the weight a lot more gently than a P-38.
mt
10-14-2004, 04:19 AM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Hi
Just like to say how much I can relate to what kram has said. I did an electric conversion of 101", 36lb, Ziroli B-25, 2xplettenberg 370/40 A3 motors, 10S4P lipo in each nacelle, full sequenced undercarriage, landing lights etc. There is so much to get right to have it fly the way it should. On my maiden flight, my nose wheel's tyre sheared off as it hit a bump on the runway just as it took to the air - my fault for not choosing the very best hardware.
It went on to fly absolutely beautifully. Heaps of power and a 'just right' sound of 2 x 3 bladed props doing 7000rpm. The wheels up landing was ugly tho not helped by a radio clitch due to electrical noise - I suspect. So I am madly rebuilding from scratch, using the best hardware thru out and very short and neat wiring of the lipos to esc to motors.
That 12mins of flight was so inspiring that there was never a thought of not rebuilding and getting it right. It is not an easy project but every set back teaches you so much and makes the 'getting right' so much sweeter.
So mookie1, dont be in any hurry to fly.
Richard
Bundaberg, Australia
Just like to say how much I can relate to what kram has said. I did an electric conversion of 101", 36lb, Ziroli B-25, 2xplettenberg 370/40 A3 motors, 10S4P lipo in each nacelle, full sequenced undercarriage, landing lights etc. There is so much to get right to have it fly the way it should. On my maiden flight, my nose wheel's tyre sheared off as it hit a bump on the runway just as it took to the air - my fault for not choosing the very best hardware.
It went on to fly absolutely beautifully. Heaps of power and a 'just right' sound of 2 x 3 bladed props doing 7000rpm. The wheels up landing was ugly tho not helped by a radio clitch due to electrical noise - I suspect. So I am madly rebuilding from scratch, using the best hardware thru out and very short and neat wiring of the lipos to esc to motors.
That 12mins of flight was so inspiring that there was never a thought of not rebuilding and getting it right. It is not an easy project but every set back teaches you so much and makes the 'getting right' so much sweeter.
So mookie1, dont be in any hurry to fly.
Richard
Bundaberg, Australia
10-14-2004, 08:24 AM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Kram and Bundy, Thanks for the kind words. It seems that all twin pilots say wait until it's ready and all others say go for it. There really is a lot that goes into this thing that can go wrong. I will heed the call of the brotherhood of twins and wait. Having said this, I have been trying in vain to fix my servo glitch. I am going to try an amplifier within the y connector. Also I'll try a choke(same thing?). It's just on one my aileron servos but it's pretty bad. Otherwise it taxis great and has tons of power. I will post the flight pics and video when the time comes. Next week hopefully. Wax on wax off. Wax on wax off. I'll post on the Twin site too.
Kram that is a killer P-61! You really are a glutton for punishment.
Bundy if you have any pics of the battery compartments in your B-25 send them. It's great to see someone going for the bigger conversions. It really makes sense on these twins. Most of the conversions are on smaller planes, but there is no reason to limit to the small ones these days. Let me know if you have done any other conversions. I have done a few, mostly 60 and 90 size planes. Good job.
Kram that is a killer P-61! You really are a glutton for punishment.
Bundy if you have any pics of the battery compartments in your B-25 send them. It's great to see someone going for the bigger conversions. It really makes sense on these twins. Most of the conversions are on smaller planes, but there is no reason to limit to the small ones these days. Let me know if you have done any other conversions. I have done a few, mostly 60 and 90 size planes. Good job.
10-14-2004, 07:30 PM
#29
RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
mookie1:
Sounds radio interference is a serious problem with electrics, as well. Even a minor "hit" can crash a P-38.
Bundy:
Sad story. Sad, but beautiful pictures.
Your story is amazingly similar to mine that I posted as an "RC riddle" on the Twin forum a couple of months ago: My front wheel rolled off the gear at takeoff of a large (53#) P-38 at a warbird meet. I flew around for about 20 minutes soliciting advice and trying to decide what to do, and, well, enjoying what I thought might be the last 20" minutes of her life. Because of a previous bad experience with gear-collapsed P-38 landing (really tore the booms up), I decided to try and slow down as much as possible and land with the gear DOWN. When that wheel-less nose gear touched the ground, the deceleration was sudden and violent, but when the dust cleared, all I really lost was a destroyed nose gear and a couple of props and a few fixable cracks and snaps here and there.
I also heard a story from another twin flyer who lost the tire, but not the wheel, as you did. He landed gear-down and suffered damage to the nose gear, but the tireless wheel rolled enough that the rest of the plane was undamaged (or so he said).
mt
Sounds radio interference is a serious problem with electrics, as well. Even a minor "hit" can crash a P-38.
Bundy:
Sad story. Sad, but beautiful pictures.
Your story is amazingly similar to mine that I posted as an "RC riddle" on the Twin forum a couple of months ago: My front wheel rolled off the gear at takeoff of a large (53#) P-38 at a warbird meet. I flew around for about 20 minutes soliciting advice and trying to decide what to do, and, well, enjoying what I thought might be the last 20" minutes of her life. Because of a previous bad experience with gear-collapsed P-38 landing (really tore the booms up), I decided to try and slow down as much as possible and land with the gear DOWN. When that wheel-less nose gear touched the ground, the deceleration was sudden and violent, but when the dust cleared, all I really lost was a destroyed nose gear and a couple of props and a few fixable cracks and snaps here and there.
I also heard a story from another twin flyer who lost the tire, but not the wheel, as you did. He landed gear-down and suffered damage to the nose gear, but the tireless wheel rolled enough that the rest of the plane was undamaged (or so he said).
mt
10-14-2004, 10:57 PM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Hi Guys
I've been flying these big brushless electrics for nearly 2 years now I guess I've become slack at truly minimizing the wiring to reduce noise because I've not had a single problem until now. I ran a small loop out under the cowl flaps to make connecting the batteries easier and I suspect this caused the problem. My normal range check was fine at 30 metres but at full throttle and at 35metres the radio started to hick-up slightly. I elected to go with this but down lowish at extreme range, lining up for a wheels up landing I got a PCM lock out. I recovered from this more thru good luck than good management but the lesson was there. With big twin electrics, range check with both motors flat out and if there is the slightest doubt sort it out before flying. Aint hindsight a wonderful thing!
Hey kram I know exactly how you felt flying around not knowing how to land it again. At the time I didn't know I had just lost the tyre and thought I had lost the entire nose wheel. Again in hindsight it would have been far better try and land on the front rim. Looking at the video at 1/8 speed you can see how it hit a little bump about halfway up the runway and started a forward-back sort of oscillation. Every time it went forward you could see the nose wheel's tyre distort more and more until it finally flew off just as it left the ground. Still the whole experience has been extremely valuable and has only inspired me more to succeed.
mookie1 - I'll post some pics of my battery setups both in the original 'Yellow Rose' and the new 'Lady lil' in the next few days. I'm just glassing the nacelles at the moment but once I cut the landing gear doors out it should the battery setup much better. I've attached a few pics of a previous conversion. The Tiger is Mike Smart's 1/4 scale 20lb, 30 cells and an absolute dream to fly.
An electric p-61 - now there is challenge!!
Richard
I've been flying these big brushless electrics for nearly 2 years now I guess I've become slack at truly minimizing the wiring to reduce noise because I've not had a single problem until now. I ran a small loop out under the cowl flaps to make connecting the batteries easier and I suspect this caused the problem. My normal range check was fine at 30 metres but at full throttle and at 35metres the radio started to hick-up slightly. I elected to go with this but down lowish at extreme range, lining up for a wheels up landing I got a PCM lock out. I recovered from this more thru good luck than good management but the lesson was there. With big twin electrics, range check with both motors flat out and if there is the slightest doubt sort it out before flying. Aint hindsight a wonderful thing!
Hey kram I know exactly how you felt flying around not knowing how to land it again. At the time I didn't know I had just lost the tyre and thought I had lost the entire nose wheel. Again in hindsight it would have been far better try and land on the front rim. Looking at the video at 1/8 speed you can see how it hit a little bump about halfway up the runway and started a forward-back sort of oscillation. Every time it went forward you could see the nose wheel's tyre distort more and more until it finally flew off just as it left the ground. Still the whole experience has been extremely valuable and has only inspired me more to succeed.
mookie1 - I'll post some pics of my battery setups both in the original 'Yellow Rose' and the new 'Lady lil' in the next few days. I'm just glassing the nacelles at the moment but once I cut the landing gear doors out it should the battery setup much better. I've attached a few pics of a previous conversion. The Tiger is Mike Smart's 1/4 scale 20lb, 30 cells and an absolute dream to fly.
An electric p-61 - now there is challenge!!
Richard
10-15-2004, 12:30 PM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Mookie1,
Did you ever think that maybe your Lightning is possessed?, Two owners, no flights? Maybe that's why they call them "fork tailed devils" or "double trouble". Just kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!
When something's not right you need encouragement, not gloom and doom of what could go wrong. Mr Murphy (and his law) is tough enough without any help. Take your time and do it right. As my dear old grandpa said, "cut twice and measure once".
best of luck on her maiden
BJ
p.s. no offense to Kram & Bundy.
Did you ever think that maybe your Lightning is possessed?, Two owners, no flights? Maybe that's why they call them "fork tailed devils" or "double trouble". Just kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!
When something's not right you need encouragement, not gloom and doom of what could go wrong. Mr Murphy (and his law) is tough enough without any help. Take your time and do it right. As my dear old grandpa said, "cut twice and measure once".
best of luck on her maiden
BJ
p.s. no offense to Kram & Bundy.
10-15-2004, 03:34 PM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Thanks BJ for the words of encouragement. This plane will fly and it is not cursed. I just need to get it right. I will fly no plane before it's time.
Mookie
Mookie
10-22-2004, 12:54 PM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Shelby, no I have not figured it out. It may be the receiver. I'll put a new one in this weekend. Very frustrating!!
10-22-2004, 06:33 PM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
mookie1:
Forgive me for giving advice in a forum so far beyond my knowledge base, BUT: (ain't there always a but?)
JR sells some really simple little "electronic chokes" which are basically little magnetic rings that you can wrap the servo leads through before attatching them to the receiver. I've had good results with them quelling RF from gas engines in some of my bigger planes. As stated above, I'm not sure I understand the source and character of the false signals you're getting, so I'm not sure this will help.
Also, the VQ wing (at least the way I put it together) was a real snake's-nest of servos and wires and Y-connectors. Is it possible your aberrant servo's lead is running too close to another servo's motor(electrical field)?. It seems really strange that only one of two servos on the same channel is glitching.
mt
Forgive me for giving advice in a forum so far beyond my knowledge base, BUT: (ain't there always a but?)
JR sells some really simple little "electronic chokes" which are basically little magnetic rings that you can wrap the servo leads through before attatching them to the receiver. I've had good results with them quelling RF from gas engines in some of my bigger planes. As stated above, I'm not sure I understand the source and character of the false signals you're getting, so I'm not sure this will help.
Also, the VQ wing (at least the way I put it together) was a real snake's-nest of servos and wires and Y-connectors. Is it possible your aberrant servo's lead is running too close to another servo's motor(electrical field)?. It seems really strange that only one of two servos on the same channel is glitching.
mt
10-23-2004, 10:24 PM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Kram, I guess I should try one of those choke rings. I tried the one built into the servo extension but it is wierd that I only have one of my aileron servos glitching. I have removed the sero extensions and replaced them outside of the wing so I don't think it was too close to others. I used a diffrent receiver and it worked fine, that must be it. I have to buy a new one($140!) that will work with my radio; the other one is only 5 channels. Hopefully thats it but it seems to be possesed! The down time has given me time to get the rest of the plane really up to speed. At least it will be ready when I fix this.
10-27-2004, 07:35 AM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Bob, can you swing that big of a prop on the KMP? I was limited by ground clearance. I am using 15X10 props and have just 1" clearance. Keep me posted. Mookie
11-01-2004, 03:10 PM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Mookie1, I'd love to see that P-38 fly. What field do you fly at, and do you ever make it up to Raleigh?
As far as your radio glitch, has anyone tried the FMA Direct FS8 receiver? They advertise it as very hit-proof, as well as having PCM-like advantages. fmadirect.com.
A bit pricey, but cheaper than a new P-38.
As far as your radio glitch, has anyone tried the FMA Direct FS8 receiver? They advertise it as very hit-proof, as well as having PCM-like advantages. fmadirect.com.
A bit pricey, but cheaper than a new P-38.
11-01-2004, 05:29 PM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Spin Doctor, I fly in Jedburg with the Jedburg Flyers. It's near Summerville, SC. I have a PCM receiver now and when I switch it out the glitch goes away. I am picking up a new 7 channel hitec system tomorrow. I needed one anyway (yeah right), I have to justify to myself. So anyway thats where I stand.
11-01-2004, 06:50 PM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Hitec Eclipse 7? I've been flying that one for over three years now, it's a great radio.
Summerville is quite a hike from Raleigh, maybe I'll see you at a GS fly-in near the border, or Joe Nall.
Good Luck with your maiden flight.
Pete
Summerville is quite a hike from Raleigh, maybe I'll see you at a GS fly-in near the border, or Joe Nall.
Good Luck with your maiden flight.
Pete
11-02-2004, 01:45 PM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Hey man,
You been doing any flying lately? Wouldn't want any rust with the '38 maiden pending
Just got a new radio here. Futaba 9cap...in a word ...wonderful!
Been flying a couple of 400-650 watt EDF jets . both about 2 lbs auw.
Re: PCM
Could be wrong, but switching to pcm might just be a band-aid. The rfi may still be present, but you just don't notice it. You still might be taking hits which can cause major problems in-flight even with pcm.
That said, if the issue was a faulty RX to begin with,ignore this little paragraph
g'luck,
-H
You been doing any flying lately? Wouldn't want any rust with the '38 maiden pending
Just got a new radio here. Futaba 9cap...in a word ...wonderful!
Been flying a couple of 400-650 watt EDF jets . both about 2 lbs auw.
Re: PCM
Could be wrong, but switching to pcm might just be a band-aid. The rfi may still be present, but you just don't notice it. You still might be taking hits which can cause major problems in-flight even with pcm.
That said, if the issue was a faulty RX to begin with,ignore this little paragraph
g'luck,
-H
11-02-2004, 10:57 PM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Swampy, I don't know much about PCM except that mine don't work! I want a new radio anyway. I may look at the Futaba you speak so highly of. I have been flying a little, I might go out tomorrow. My Gee Bee is flying great these days. I'll get my new radio and hope to complete the P-38 by the weekend. Dare to dream. Later, Mookie
11-03-2004, 10:13 AM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
mookie1,
The Swamp Fox point about PCM covering up glitches is valid, esp. if the source of the problem is in your plane!
PCM is suppost to reject bad signals, and offers a "fail safe" setting, but if the source of those signals is on-the-plane, the effect will be NO CONTROL.
How much (estimate) do you think electric is costing over a similar glow setup, not including chargers?
I hope you take a photographer with you on the maiden, but NEVER listen to him! (..Lower, lower LOWER! Left! Bank! Pull UP! **crash** "What did you do?")
The Swamp Fox point about PCM covering up glitches is valid, esp. if the source of the problem is in your plane!
PCM is suppost to reject bad signals, and offers a "fail safe" setting, but if the source of those signals is on-the-plane, the effect will be NO CONTROL.
How much (estimate) do you think electric is costing over a similar glow setup, not including chargers?
I hope you take a photographer with you on the maiden, but NEVER listen to him! (..Lower, lower LOWER! Left! Bank! Pull UP! **crash** "What did you do?")
11-04-2004, 10:09 PM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Well I have good news and bad news. The good news is my new Hitec Eclipse fixed my glitch; the bad news is now my retracts are not working! I set the plane up again with the new transmitter and receiver and my retracts were slow so I pumped them up and the servo is working but the valve seems to be stuck. I was so happy the glitch was gone then this! I don't have any leaks, the tank is at 80psi. I CAN'T WIN! I am energized by the glitch being gone and I am on a mission now though. I will find the gremlins and destroy them, they cannot defeat me. I am a human being...... (i know I'm losing it)
Spindoctor- I don't know the difference on glow or electric price wise. I think the speed controllers are the real difference. The AXI motors are about the same as glow engines and the batteries can be argued as cheaper in the long run than fuel. For me it is no contest; the smell of glow fuel and messing with the engines to make them run correct sounds like a nightmare, especially with a twin.
I can't believe I haven't flown this plane; this is not like me. I think this plane is making me turn into an old man; one that sits on his porch in his underwear and yells at passersby "I used to be somebody!.... you kids don't step on the gremlins-they bite".
Spindoctor- I don't know the difference on glow or electric price wise. I think the speed controllers are the real difference. The AXI motors are about the same as glow engines and the batteries can be argued as cheaper in the long run than fuel. For me it is no contest; the smell of glow fuel and messing with the engines to make them run correct sounds like a nightmare, especially with a twin.
I can't believe I haven't flown this plane; this is not like me. I think this plane is making me turn into an old man; one that sits on his porch in his underwear and yells at passersby "I used to be somebody!.... you kids don't step on the gremlins-they bite".
11-08-2004, 12:56 PM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
MOOKIE,
Don't let Mr. Murphy get you down, or make you go crazy. Look at the bright side, better to have gremlins now and kill them, then to take them along for the ride. You know how much they like to drive.
BJ
Don't let Mr. Murphy get you down, or make you go crazy. Look at the bright side, better to have gremlins now and kill them, then to take them along for the ride. You know how much they like to drive.
BJ
11-12-2004, 11:05 AM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Ok, I fixed the retract problem. The valve was not disengaging because of the servo throw. I fixed that and taxied it around my parking lot last night. It is ready! The weather doesn't look too promising this weekend but Monday I hope to fly. I will post the video then. It taxied great; I hope it does as well in the grass. here are some pictures of it without the turbo covers on the wings while taxiing.[img][/img]
11-17-2004, 11:01 AM
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RE: 83' VQ models P-38 electric conversion
Swamp fox- I tried to call you for the maiden but I had the wrong #. Give me a call.
Well I went for it yesterday and -long story short- it didn't get off the ground. This was because of the small front wheel and tall grass at our field. It ran very quickly the length of the field and almost got off but the front strut turned and bent. This stopped it dead.
So not to be deterred I bent the strut back but it was also bent back. I went for it again anyway and it went only about 10 feet then the strut bent again.
I took a rear wheel off and put in place of the front and it seems to retract fine so I will replace the strut and put the larger wheel on. I have a video that I will post of the attempt. I felt like I was just watching the whole thing happen it was weird. It just kept running away from me.
Well it will live to fly another day. I've had other planes that would not get off from this field. The tires were that soft lightweight kind so I'll use a harder tire to cut through the grass as well.
Well I went for it yesterday and -long story short- it didn't get off the ground. This was because of the small front wheel and tall grass at our field. It ran very quickly the length of the field and almost got off but the front strut turned and bent. This stopped it dead.
So not to be deterred I bent the strut back but it was also bent back. I went for it again anyway and it went only about 10 feet then the strut bent again.
I took a rear wheel off and put in place of the front and it seems to retract fine so I will replace the strut and put the larger wheel on. I have a video that I will post of the attempt. I felt like I was just watching the whole thing happen it was weird. It just kept running away from me.
Well it will live to fly another day. I've had other planes that would not get off from this field. The tires were that soft lightweight kind so I'll use a harder tire to cut through the grass as well.