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World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Old 12-05-2010, 05:08 AM
  #51  
Greg Covey
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

I decided to change plans and use the new Turnigy [link=http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14427]C120-70[/link] outrunner. This motor appears to be similar to the Hacker A150-8 but costs only 1/3 the price! It is also 1/3 the price of the geared Neu setup used by Josh Young. The C120-70 is not made to order but rather stocked so that it can be purchased quickly. This type of affordability and off-the-shelf solution is more in line with my goals than making the "ultimate" high-power electric plane. I also had some concerns with the lethal voltages above a 12s setup since readers often mimic my conversions.

Data has already been posted using the ICE HV 160 ESC and Turnigy CA120-70 outrunner on a 12s LiPo and a 27x10 prop. At 7000 watts, 169 amps, 7200 RPMs, this setup will run all day. My plan is to prop it for a peak of around 225 amps which the ICE HV 160 ESC should easily handle for 5 second bursts. I'll likely start with a 30" prop and see what the data logging reports.

Using Josh Young's geared Neu motor example, he produced 9200 watts at 215 amps peak power on his 40% 119" Extra 330SE. At 9200 watts, even a 42lb plane will have 219 watts/lb. This will indeed address the majority market.
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:04 AM
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Hi Greg,
Best Wishes for your chosen route. You probably have a lot more experience than me with these sorts of setups.
My biggest setup so far is the Neu 1521 geared on 12S 10,000mAh on an 89" 3DHS Slick.
I have a background in electronics/electricity; so, I think that makes the electrics even more enjoyable for me than my gas and nitro planes.
Being new to this many watts, I want to go with something as reliable and proven as possible, hence my decision for the Predator/Schulze. I.E. I don't want to do any motor/ESC combination trial and error. There will be plenty of trial and error for me with the Predator/Schulze
Also, I think the power max of the Predator and current max of the Schulze with leave me with some room to experiment with props to get just the right flight characteristics for me.
I'm aiming for 12S, 10 - 15kmAh but will probably try 14S somewhere along the way.....especially if I get boared with 12S.
If I get another setup of this size, I'll try your idea. I'm all for saving some money...... just not this time.

I'm really anxious to see how Saul's and your setups work out. I hope you both post whatever you learn about how they actually perform.

Larry
Northern (Snowy) Illinois
Old 12-06-2010, 05:43 AM
  #53  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Hey Greg.

I am trying to find the connectors that used to be available from FMA and were listed in their web site/catalog.

They were six pin and I think plug was a CPBP6P-10

I need both the plug and the receptacle with the pigtails

Can you advise?

Tom
Old 12-06-2010, 08:57 AM
  #54  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Hi Tom,

FMA still sells the smaller support items in the US. Check out the link [link=http://www.fmadirect.com/category.htm?id=71]here[/link] and then click on the Cellpro 10s Adapters and Extensions image.

I was surprised to see that Hobby King now sells the Cellpro line of chargers and adapters for very good prices. You can check that out [link=http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?catname=Battery+C hargers&idCategory=216&ParentCat=408]here[/link].

Regards.
Old 12-08-2010, 04:25 AM
  #55  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Greg,

Thanks,  I tried FMA and they no longer have them.

I also tried Hobby King.  Communication with this Org. is difficult but
It appears that although they show cabels/connectors of this sort, they
don't have any!

Tom

P.S.  I assume that none of these co.s make the connectors, so who is
the prime manufacture?

Old 12-08-2010, 06:15 AM
  #56  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Greg,

I just found what I was looking for!

www.batterystation.com they have connector cables for just about everything!

Tom
Old 12-09-2010, 11:13 AM
  #57  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Greg.

I am trying to establish a weight budget for my research model.

I am using the AXI 5330/20 dual tandem motor.
I am using a Mejzlik 26-10 Prop
I am using two Jeti advance plus esc. units.
and I am using two pairs of polyquest 6000 LI-Po 5s batteries.
My present weight with computer, RCATS, and another package is 42 lb.

The take-off is rapid and gets to 800 ft is short order.  The rpm at cruise is between
3800 and 4000.

we do no fancy aerobatics just level flight, variable bank angel turns, and stalls both clean and dirty.

The model is 100 in span,  1881 sq. in. area, basic dry weight 30 lbs.  It was designed for 100 cc engines
the wing has a symetrical airfoil approx 12% thick.

at the present weigt of 42 lb. I can see a slight angle of attack in the fuselage in straight and level flight.

The wing and stab are a 00 incedence and at cruise I can see a slight angle of attack in the fuselage.

I am looking for how much more I can load up the model and still make it safely flyable.  Granted the takeoff
run will be longer and climb out slower, but it stll has to remain within good visibility range.

Things I can do.

  Rotate the wing on the tube a couple of degrees to acheive a better lift/drag ratio.
I can lower the inboard flaps a couple of degrees to acheive more lift with min. drag incr.
I can raise the outboard ailerons a couple of degrees to alleviate tip stall.

do you think I can safely go up another 10 to 15 lbs in payload before I get into serious trouble?

I have static loaded the wings to over 8 g. at a weight of 42 lb.  so I am not too concerned about the weight otherwise.
Old 12-12-2010, 06:11 AM
  #58  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Hi Tom,

Those are difficult questions to answer. The plane's structure was not likely designed to handle much additional weight. In general, use the watts per pound rule and try not to go heavier than 60w/lb. Since you are not performing aerobatics, the symmetrical wing is adding unwanted drag.

Look at the large 12' Telemaster design at [link=http://www.hobby-lobby.com/12_foot_telemaster_arf.htm?pSearchQueryId=1015086]Hobby Lobby[/link]. This beast was designed to haul and lift.

Good luck!

Larry,

You won't have any problems with that combination as they have a great track record.

Regards.
Old 12-12-2010, 09:16 AM
  #59  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

My Turnigy CA120-70 motor arrived today (Sunday) from China. The EMS shipping is very quick!

I took it out of the double boxes where it was surrounded by cooler foam and sealed in a plastic bag. So far, it seems as advertised and the quality looks good. The magnets are somehow sealed into channels in the outer case. I'm not sure how this was machined but it should help them stay in place.

I'll have my machinist friends take a closer look at it.
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Old 12-12-2010, 11:02 AM
  #60  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Greg,
Is that the largest motor sold by Turnigy? What are the max number of cells it can handle? Are you still going to use the Schulze ESC? What prop will you use?

Saul
Old 12-12-2010, 11:11 AM
  #61  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Hi Greg. Very nice motor. I actually bought one myself - it was kind of an impulse buy and I have no project yet to use it in. I do however have all electronics for a fairly big plane - HS-7950TH or HS-7954SH servos, Powerbox Royal with 2xR6014HS revicers and 2xpower supply, Turnigy CA120-70 and Neu 2230 motors (may buy a Plettenberg Predator 37 or Hacker A200), Schulze fut-xxl-40.303. I plan on buying the EF 125" Extra 300 but we are moving soon so it won't be before end of 2011 or so.

Anyway - nice thread here. Hope you will post your experiences and data from using the Turnigy motor.
Old 12-12-2010, 11:50 AM
  #62  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane


ORIGINAL: Greg Covey

My Turnigy CA120-70 motor arrived today (Sunday) from China. The EMS shipping is very quick!

I took it out of the double boxes where it was surrounded by cooler foam and sealed in a plastic bag. So far, it seems as advertised and the quality looks good. The magnets are somehow sealed into channels in the outer case. I'm not sure how this was machined but it should help them stay in place.

I'll have my machinist friends take a closer look at it.

WOW !
And on Sunday even !!!
Santa must like you best!
I'm still waiting for my Predator [&o]
I hope you can find a way to test it out before spring.
I'm curious to see some numbers and hear what you think.
Old 12-13-2010, 05:15 AM
  #63  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane


Greg,

Thanks for the reply.

The model I am working with is an EDGE 540T and some what larger than the Hanger 9 Edge you did an article on.

The model was chosen because it had a large interior in which to place research equipment and in addition it was
a scale model of a real aircraft.  The Telemaster just dosn't fill the bill.  Also because we have so much data with this
model we can't afford to change to another aircraft.

I assume that the 60 watts per lb. you speak of is total for the two motors.  If this is true then I should be able to go up
an additional 10 to 15 lb.

Some of the 42 lb. basic weight of the model presently is due to some reinforcment already built into it.  As I mentioned before
we have static loaded the model to over 8 G.  One of our flight tests required us to cut a 3mm slot into the bottom of the wing
tube to simulate some structure damage.  We loaded that tube to 12 G before it failed.  The model has been flown in that
configuration several times with no problem.

The additional weight that I need to put into the model is due to adding more sceintific instrumentation, not just payload.

I am looking into upgrading the power system in the model to allow flying with a single motor, and obtain more flight time.
That is why I am interested in what you and others are working with.

Thanks again.

Tom
Old 12-13-2010, 04:25 PM
  #64  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Hi Saul,

Yes, I believe the CA120-70 is the largest Turnigy motor. They must also have a line of washing machines that these are used in.

The max. number of cells for this motor is not specified. In fact, there are few specifications for the motor. I plan to start with a 30" prop to obtain a peak power level between 9000 watts and 9500 watts using 12s3p 15AH with the Castle Creations ICE HV 160 ESC. My final prop will be a Mejzlick carbon but I may experiment with some less expensive Xoar or Vess wood props. The limitation in this power system is the ICE HV 160 ESC but it will act as a good starting point to check motor temperature.

thomatrix,

Yes, I will post my results here. I would like to pre-test the motor before it goes in the plane this spring.

Good luck on your move!

Larry,

I guess I took care of my own Christmas present this year. Unexpected package deliveries is one of the fun parts of our hobby.

I posted some numbers on this motor using the same ICE HV ESC with a 27" prop which is why my first attempt will be with a 30" prop. The gas engine prop mount needs a good thick hub so I think that eliminates using any of the electric style props.

Tom,

That is one interesting project you have. It sounds like a mix of work and hobby. Be careful not to jump up too much additional weight at once. It would be safer to try some reasonable increments. Good luck!
Old 12-14-2010, 05:24 AM
  #65  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Saul,

I stand corrected on the input voltage rating. It looks like it can go up to 16s.

Turnigy CA120-70 8600W Brushless Outrunner Specifications
Model: 120-70-15
Resistance: 4.8ohm
ESC Required: 250A
Input Voltage : 30~70V
Kv : 150 rpm/V
Weight: 2550g
Shaft: 10mm
20v Non Load Current: 11A
Dimensions: 168x140x118mm (Including Mount)
Equivalent: 110cc Twin Gas Engine (20hp+)

Designed as a 100cc gas engine replacement, this motor is a great alternative for 3D and sport planes up to 35lbs! The motor is very well built with strong mounts, end bell and a concentric double bearings at the rear to support large propellers and rotating can, especially during hard 3D flight. This motor is very well engineered and of the highest quality. The factory can produce only a limited number of these motors per month due to the increased time in balancing and machining such a large object.
Old 12-14-2010, 07:19 AM
  #66  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Greg,

It'll be interesting to see if it flies with the motor since it is equivalent to 110c and the plane calls for 150cc.

Saul
Old 12-14-2010, 08:08 AM
  #67  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane


ORIGINAL: Greg Covey

Saul,

I stand corrected on the input voltage rating. It looks like it can go up to 16s.

Turnigy CA120-70 8600W Brushless Outrunner Specifications
Model: 120-70-15
Resistance: 4.8ohm
ESC Required: 250A
Input Voltage : 30~70V
Kv : 150 rpm/V
Weight: 2550g
Shaft: 10mm
20v Non Load Current: 11A
Dimensions: 168x140x118mm (Including Mount)
Equivalent: 110cc Twin Gas Engine (20hp+)

Designed as a 100cc gas engine replacement, this motor is a great alternative for 3D and sport planes up to 35lbs! The motor is very well built with strong mounts, end bell and a concentric double bearings at the rear to support large propellers and rotating can, especially during hard 3D flight. This motor is very well engineered and of the highest quality. The factory can produce only a limited number of these motors per month due to the increased time in balancing and machining such a large object.
Greg,
If the motor received 70V and 250A that would be 17.5 kW input. It doesn't seem to be very efficient if it is only rated at 8.6kW.
Do you think China has 70V ESCs? At 50V and 250A the input would be 12.5 kW. If the motor is rated like a Hacker or a Neu and it's pretty efficient, maybe it would come closer to 12 kW of output.
At this point you've really got my attention
Old 12-14-2010, 09:34 AM
  #68  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Typically, motors and ESCs are not rated for both max voltage and max current at the same time. This is all part of the specsmanship. The total power level (voltage times current) is what really limits these components. Further, there are constant ratings and peak ratings so in applications like R/C, you can often obtain a sizable increase of power for short periods (5-10 seconds) which can be used for certain maneuvers (knife edge, pull out, verticals, etc).

As far as their "110cc equivalent", their "20 h.p." is closer to a DA-200 power level so you have to take these suggestions with a grain of salt and perform some tests.

Time will tell...
Old 12-15-2010, 04:41 AM
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane


Greg,

What is the dimensional distance from the rear mounting surface to the rear face of the spinner plate?

What kind of connectors will you be using in the set up?  Isn't 225 amps too much for the Deans Ultra connectors?

What method do you use to enlarge the prop hole?  All of the props I am using come with a 9mm hole and enlarging
to fit motor shafts and balancing have been one of my biggest problems.

On the Axi 5330/20 Dual the prop adapter supplied is not balanced.  I had Tru-Turn make me an adapter with a 9mm shaft
and tapped 10-32 for the spinner bolt.  I balanced the adapter and I balance the adapter, prop, and spinner as a unit.  Yet
the motor vibrates severely ????  I checked the tracking and it's perfect.

In your post of 12-5-2010 you gave data on the Turnigy and stated it would run all day.  Do you know what the capacity
of the 12s LiPo battery was?

I am looking for a replacement for the AXI and am interested if the Turnigy would be a good candidate.

Tom
Old 12-15-2010, 05:42 AM
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane


ORIGINAL: ironJaw


Greg,

What is the dimensional distance from the rear mounting surface to the rear face of the spinner plate?

What kind of connectors will you be using in the set up? Isn't 225 amps too much for the Deans Ultra connectors?

What method do you use to enlarge the prop hole? All of the props I am using come with a 9mm hole and enlarging
to fit motor shafts and balancing have been one of my biggest problems.

On the Axi 5330/20 Dual the prop adapter supplied is not balanced. I had Tru-Turn make me an adapter with a 9mm shaft
and tapped 10-32 for the spinner bolt. I balanced the adapter and I balance the adapter, prop, and spinner as a unit. Yet
the motor vibrates severely ???? I checked the tracking and it's perfect.

In your post of 12-5-2010 you gave data on the Turnigy and stated it would run all day. Do you know what the capacity
of the 12s LiPo battery was?

I am looking for a replacement for the AXI and am interested if the Turnigy would be a good candidate.

Tom

Hi Tom,

The Deans connectors are rated to 100 amp continuous. This is what I learned after speaking with one of the engineers at Deans. He also informed me they are working on connectors that will handle greater then 100 amps that was supposed to on the market by August 2010. What I suggested to Greg were the 8mm bullet connectors from Xtreme Power Systems. http://www.xtremepowersystems.net/pr...prod=XPS-8mm-1
The bolt pattern for props for my Hacker A200 is exactly that of the Desert Aircraft 150cc gas engine so I purchased & used a drill guide from www.pspmfg.com
It worked great. It looks like the Turnigy has the same type of bolt pattern.
You may want to also consider the Hacker A150 which is equivalent to a 100cc engine. Here are videos demonstrating the power of the motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSeL94rFm8A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LIQx0EIN_w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=415JeO_xZc0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UTIrHqiHJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIvfMwzo2yE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL6Q-_QuKCU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a-0lfFOTWM

Saul
Old 12-15-2010, 12:08 PM
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane


Saul,

Thanks for the info.

My AXI 5330/20 Dual Tandem is supposed to be equivalent to a 100cc engine.

It turns a Majzlik 26-10 a 6000 rpm. 

I would like to replace it with a more powerful single motor and reduce the amount of wiring and etc.

of course cost is also a consideration.

Tom
Old 12-15-2010, 03:01 PM
  #72  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Tom,

The only way Dean's Ultra connectors might work here is if you used an entire connector per side; one for red and one for white. I only use Dean's Ultra connectors on applications that might peak to 100 amps.

I ordered 8mm bullet connectors from both XPS and Hobby King. To my surprise, the ones from HK were much larger. Further, you get a whole bag of 12 sets for $15. I plan to use these on all ESC connections. For battery pack connections, I plan to use the Castle Creations 6.5mm connectors which can handle 200amps. These 6.5mm connections will be paralleled (12s3p) going to the 8mm bullets.

I made some measurements on the Turnigy CA120-70 motor and they did not match up to the DA-150. I posted images of the DA150 engine with the CA120-70 measurements added in parenthesis. We will likely make our own jig for prop drilling unless I can find one. To answer your question about drilling props, we use a drill press and a jig.

The statement about "running all day" meant that the current was within the continuous specs on all components. The actual runtime is determined by your pack capacity.
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:58 AM
  #73  
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

It is possible that I measured the prop adapter incorrectly and that it is really 29 mm across from the holes. This would make the mounting the same as the DA-100 and 3W 4-cylinder (112iB4) engines. I will have my machinist friend measure it more accurately.
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:06 AM
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

"I plan to start with a 30" prop to obtain a peak power level between 9000 watts and 9500 watts using 12s3p 15AH with the Castle Creations ICE HV 160 ESC."

Hey Greg,
Any chance you'll be bolting that puppy up to something substantially immovable inside somewhere before winter is over and run some numbers?
I'll bet you are really curious
Larry
Old 12-16-2010, 09:22 AM
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Default RE: World Models 42% Ultimate Biplane

Larry,

Yes, my Xoar 30x10 prop is on the way and my plan is to create a test stand over the Christmas break. I'll run the tests either in my garage or in the driveway if the weather allows.

I'll post some photos and a video when it happens. I'll also post the data logging graph.

Regards.

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