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Exhaust temp vs solder

Old 04-20-2011, 03:51 PM
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JPMacG
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Default Exhaust temp vs solder

I learned today that the exhaust temp of my Enya 50SS is hotter than the melting temperature of solder. I had soldered a muffler adapter onto a Soundmaster muffler to make it fit the Enya hole pattern. It worked great for several flights until I did a prolonged run at full throttle. Then the muffler came unsoldered from the adapter in mid flight and hung on by the pressure line. It was actually pretty entertaining to watch.

Can anyone recommend a better way to attach the muffler to the adapter plate? How about JB Weld? Silver solder or braze?

Thanks!
Old 04-20-2011, 04:03 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

You answered your own question with silver solder or JB weld.

Happy flying, Oscar
Old 04-20-2011, 04:06 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder


ORIGINAL: JPMacG

I learned today that the exhaust temp of my Enya 50SS is hotter than the melting temperature of solder. I had soldered a muffler adapter onto a Soundmaster muffler to make it fit the Enya hole pattern. It worked great for several flights until I did a prolonged run at full throttle. Then the muffler came unsoldered from the adapter in mid flight and hung on by the pressure line. It was actually pretty entertaining to watch.

Can anyone recommend a better way to attach the muffler to the adapter plate? How about JB Weld? Silver solder or braze?

Thanks!

Silver solder or braze, JB weld may hold for a while for exit tubes, but not likely for the adapter plate. just my limited experience.

Sincerely, Richard
Old 04-20-2011, 04:07 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

Silver solder minnie torch to use martin
Old 04-20-2011, 04:21 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

All those things work, but you have to get the low temp solder completely off both parts or you are right back where you started. The low temp solder will go liquid long before a braze will take. On silver solder, the hard silver solder is the same temp range as brass brazing. The plumbing silver solder, or stay bright doesn't have much advantage over 50/50 lead tin for temp, some but not much.

File and sand down to bright metal and then braze or hard silver solder.

Don
Old 04-20-2011, 04:37 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

Don, I soldered up a K&S tubing pipe for my PAW .60, even though the PAWs exhaust is practically cold it still melted the StayBrite. It didn't last 10 seconds.
Old 04-20-2011, 05:29 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

If it was aluminum, I would suggest aluminum solder. It works good.
But since you used solder, you aren't using aluminum. So I would say silver solder as it has a higher melting temperature. better is brazing using brazing rod.
Old 04-20-2011, 05:36 PM
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JPMacG
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

The Soundmaster muffler and the adapter plate that I made are both steel. I'm thinking that brazing may be the best solution. I'll be sure to remove all the old solder first.

I assume that I will not be able to do the brazing using a propane torch. Is that correct? I read that brazing rod melts at 1200 degrees F. I'm thinking of getting a Bernzomatic brazing kit. Is that a good choice?

Thanks for all the help!
Old 04-20-2011, 07:39 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

What about arc welding with one of those 110 VAC arc welders? I am fascinated at how many things can be welded, if care is taken. Yes, I'm aware that thin metal can evaporate away before your eyes, so extreme care would have to be taken. Silver solder would work in this situation, but the contamination from the previous solder job might prove to be problematic. Let us know what you did and how it is working.


Ed Cregger
Old 04-21-2011, 02:09 AM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

In a vibrating environment like this, I'd go with the brazing and avoid arc welding.
Old 04-21-2011, 04:17 AM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

Arc welding should actually be more durable, if you let the metal cool slowly. Arc welders are cheap, and you may be able to rent one. If you rent, and are trying to learn, get a mig welder, it is easy to learn to weld with mig.

Or just take it to a welding shop.
Old 04-21-2011, 04:53 AM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder


ORIGINAL: MJD

In a vibrating environment like this, I'd go with the brazing and avoid arc welding.


Just about everyone in the world has more arc welding experience than I, so I'll take your recommendation as the final word.


Ed Cregger
Old 04-21-2011, 04:55 AM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

Ah, now I've learned a bit more from Sport Pilot.

Does anyone make brazing sticks for arc welders? Yeah, I really am that stupid.


Ed Cregger
Old 04-21-2011, 05:59 AM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

Can't braze with an ARC welder. Brazing is joining by melting the brazing rod to hold the two pieces of metal together. Generally brazing is using brass to join steel. Welding is fusing the two pieces of metal together with a like metal as the electrode.
Old 04-21-2011, 07:14 AM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

Actually you can.  I can't think of anybody who does it. 

http://www.zena.net/htdocs/welders/Rods/ArcBraze.shtml
Old 04-21-2011, 08:35 AM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

Cool, i didn't know they had those. There was a couple of times I could have used something like that.
But it isn't very often though.

I would suggest reading up some about arc welding and how its done. You can get inexpensive arc welders and you can practice welding to get a feel for it. It really isn't all that difficult.
Another thought is to take an adult education class at the college or high school on welding. I found the classes very interesting and you get to practice welding a lot too.
 
Old 04-21-2011, 11:41 AM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

Try this stuff if you need to weld aluminum. http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...m+welding+rods It even will weld copper to aluminum or any non ferrous metal to it. I am making a custom exhaust for my gas engine because I refuse to pay 80-100 $ for a pitts muffler made in China. This stuff is great !!
Old 04-21-2011, 11:48 AM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

Call up the guy at MACS products. I've found he's very helpful, and certainly would have the wherewithal to point you in the right direction.
Old 04-21-2011, 02:19 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder


If you get some real silver solder and flux you can do what you need with a propane torch with a small tip . You'll end up with a very strong and heat proof joint . If there is a jewelry supply store near you , they sell silver solder by the foot and small bottles of flux . You might need a few feet , a bit to practice , then some to do your adapter .


Guy.
Old 04-21-2011, 04:19 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder


ORIGINAL: JPMacG

I learned today that the exhaust temp of my Enya 50SS is hotter than the melting temperature of solder. I had soldered a muffler adapter onto a Soundmaster muffler to make it fit the Enya hole pattern. It worked great for several flights until I did a prolonged run at full throttle. Then the muffler came unsoldered from the adapter in mid flight and hung on by the pressure line. It was actually pretty entertaining to watch.

Can anyone recommend a better way to attach the muffler to the adapter plate? How about JB Weld? Silver solder or braze?

Thanks!

take it to someone who can do "mig wire welding"
Old 04-21-2011, 04:30 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

Hi, First, weather it melted the solder or not solder will not bond Aluminum so it would have failedanyway. It has to be heli-arked at a professional welder. I have used JB weld but it works best on brand new aluminum. Used mufflers become saturated with oil and the JB weld wont bond. Remember Aluminum is porris and absorbes oil.
Old 04-21-2011, 06:13 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder


ORIGINAL: NM2K


ORIGINAL: MJD

In a vibrating environment like this, I'd go with the brazing and avoid arc welding.
Just about everyone in the world has more arc welding experience than I, so I'll take your recommendation as the final word.

Ed Cregger
My only reason for suggesting this was that I had an exhaust flange fail twice on a snowmobile after arc welding repair, and someone suggested having it brazed after which it never failed again - supposedly it was going to handle the vibration stress better. I wonder if it was just a better repair than the weld?
Old 04-21-2011, 06:15 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

I'll agree with Guy. Maybe because I've done a lot of hard silver soldering. If you get some "hard" silver solder, you are good for over 1000F before the solder starts to go plastic, it melts at around 1350F and flows at 1475F. You have to get it to the flow temp before it works. IT turns to water at that point and goes to the heat. Lots of borax flux because if the metal starts to oxidize from the heat, you are done soldering until you get back to bright metal. The flux is as important as the solder. Iwould recommend the paste flux, you can get more of it on the piece. Don't forget to flux the solder also. The flux will foam up and then melt back down to a liquid. Just past this point is where the solder will start to melt and then flow. Place small snips of solder along the joint. When the solder starts to flow, it will go to the heat, so you use the torch as your paint brush to pull the solder where you what it. Last, it will not fill gaps. You need a good fit before you start to solder. This is true for brazing also, but you can build a bridge with brazing rod. You can't with silver solder.

Don.
Old 04-24-2011, 12:51 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

ORIGINAL: THERCAV8R

Hi, First, weather it melted the solder or not solder will not bond Aluminum so it would have failedanyway. It has to be heli-arked at a professional welder. I have used JB weld but it works best on brand new aluminum. Used mufflers become saturated with oil and the JB weld wont bond. Remember Aluminum is porris and absorbes oil.
Cast aluminum can be porous, but billet or extruded is usually very solid. I haven't had much luck with the aluminum low temp brazing rods, Tig welding works well.

The OP mentioned his application is a steel joint. I'd be looking at brazing or Oxy-acetylene welding it. Find a small privately owned muffler shop to get it done, they are use to cleaning and welding thin wall dirty stuff. A lot of small weld shops have closed up. The big guys don't want to bother with small stuff much of the time.
Old 04-24-2011, 01:17 PM
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Default RE: Exhaust temp vs solder

ORIGINAL: Campgems

I'll agree with Guy. Maybe because I've done a lot of hard silver soldering. If you get some ''hard'' silver solder, you are good for over 1000F before the solder starts to go plastic, it melts at around 1350F and flows at 1475F. You have to get it to the flow temp before it works. IT turns to water at that point and goes to the heat. Lots of borax flux because if the metal starts to oxidize from the heat, you are done soldering until you get back to bright metal. The flux is as important as the solder. I would recommend the paste flux, you can get more of it on the piece. Don't forget to flux the solder also. The flux will foam up and then melt back down to a liquid. Just past this point is where the solder will start to melt and then flow. Place small snips of solder along the joint. When the solder starts to flow, it will go to the heat, so you use the torch as your paint brush to pull the solder where you what it. Last, it will not fill gaps. You need a good fit before you start to solder. This is true for brazing also, but you can build a bridge with brazing rod. You can't with silver solder.

Don.
You obviously are skilled and it's second nature to you, but can you expect a novice to do a one of? It's so easy to be transfixed on one spot and then burn the flux, to know how much heat to draw in the silver, how to work the flame. it's earned skill. It may be best and cheaper for the OP to have it done, unless of course he wants to learn.

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