Go Back  RCU Forums > Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums > Glow Engines
Reload this Page >

Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

Notices
Glow Engines Discuss RC glow engines

Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

Old 07-20-2011, 03:11 PM
  #1  
Kmot
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (24)
 
Kmot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 10,956
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

So the other morning I was going to run my Webra four strokes. Like many of my engines in my collection, I purchased them second hand years ago. I won't knowingly buy an engine that is crapped out or abused. But apparently I have done so by accident.

I took down the T4-60 and T4-40 boxes and when I opened the T4-60 I was like " oh man, look at this pig!". [:'(]

I cannot have an engine looking like this. So I am going to have to do something about it!

Hence, my next "project engine".
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Ur52452.jpg
Views:	307
Size:	86.5 KB
ID:	1637952   Click image for larger version

Name:	Oj26765.jpg
Views:	302
Size:	96.0 KB
ID:	1637953   Click image for larger version

Name:	Ch96566.jpg
Views:	288
Size:	121.2 KB
ID:	1637954   Click image for larger version

Name:	Wq43790.jpg
Views:	844
Size:	101.5 KB
ID:	1637955   Click image for larger version

Name:	Pa33548.jpg
Views:	288
Size:	66.4 KB
ID:	1637956  
Old 07-20-2011, 03:25 PM
  #2  
Broken Wings
My Feedback: (20)
 
Broken Wings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Cocoa, FL
Posts: 2,085
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

Its going to take a lot of work to top that Radial you spit shined....
Old 07-20-2011, 05:19 PM
  #3  
earlwb
 
earlwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grapevine, TX
Posts: 5,993
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

A shiny T4-60 would look pretty cool. I can see you painting the crankcase and polishing it up nice and shiny so that the paint inside the fins is highlighted nicely.

Old 07-20-2011, 05:37 PM
  #4  
controlliner
 
controlliner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

Tom, but just look at that evidence of the CASTOR OIL . You know someone used a good fuel in the T4 I noticed the top flange of the liner looks like there is a low spot where the combustion process tried to escape[:@]
Old 07-20-2011, 06:46 PM
  #5  
Kmot
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (24)
 
Kmot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 10,956
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

Yeah, what's up with that? The dimpled piston is different too.

Not sure what I am going to do yet. Gotta roll it around in my head for awhile.
Old 07-21-2011, 02:50 AM
  #6  
gkamysz
Senior Member
My Feedback: (19)
 
gkamysz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Crystal Lake, IL
Posts: 3,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

I'd have to say you have a damaged piston. My T4-60 has a normal flat top piston. I also have to get around to looking at mine as it would not run after warming up the only time I tried it.
Old 07-21-2011, 03:22 AM
  #7  
earlwb
 
earlwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grapevine, TX
Posts: 5,993
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

The engine does not show severe heat damage, so that dumpled piston was cast that way. So it looks like a defective casting that was used anyway. To dimple the piston like that would mean the engine was run extra hot and lean, so that the heat would soften it or maybe detonation took place as well.


Old 07-21-2011, 05:53 AM
  #8  
TFF
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 4,183
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

Hydraulic lock?
Old 07-21-2011, 07:30 AM
  #9  
Kmot
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (24)
 
Kmot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 10,956
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

Hee-Hee, April Fools!

Sorry guys, I was playing a joke on all ya'all. It's just an optical illusion because of the carbon.
Old 07-21-2011, 07:41 AM
  #10  
gkamysz
Senior Member
My Feedback: (19)
 
gkamysz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Crystal Lake, IL
Posts: 3,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

You know, I looked at it again later and was thinking just that! Good one.
Old 07-21-2011, 08:03 AM
  #11  
earlwb
 
earlwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grapevine, TX
Posts: 5,993
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

Funny. That was a good optical illusion for the pic. sort of like those videos showing the props turning backwards too.

Your engine looks remarkably clean on the inside, no rust on the crank web. So it ought to be a good runner then. Worst case is needing to put in new bearings for the crankshaft. But that isn't a big deal, just don't forget the belt.

Old 07-21-2011, 12:05 PM
  #12  
Kmot
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (24)
 
Kmot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 10,956
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

This engine has been a real bugger to get apart. Old crusty castor oil residue is very tenacious, and this stuff was almost like JB Weld!

I had to resort to using a broken stud extractor to get the piston pin out. This, after soaking in denatured alcohol overnight. But not before I had heated it using a pencil torch and trying lots of penetrant.

The rear bearing stuck to the crank when I was pushing it out on my arbor press. I then had to jury rig a fixture to press the crank out of the bearing.

The front bearing took lots of heat on the case before it wanted to give up and get pushed out.

Now that it is all apart (except for the carb) I have some observations:

1) The fact that the crankshaft has to be removed to replace the timing belt worries me. How tough are those belts? How long are they expected to last. And can I find a replacement today?

2) The front and rear bearings are shielded. This allows some of the oil to weep through into the area of the crankshaft where the belt spline drive is, and also get the belt coated in oil. Why? Why not use sealed bearings instead? That way the belt stays dry and the belt cover does not need to be sealed with silicone.

3) The piston pin had brass eyelets as spacers. This seems rather odd to me. I think the Teflon type as used by Saito make more sense.

4) The spline drive area on the crank is 'low' in the middle. Does this mean it is worn down? Or was it just mfg'd this way?

Does anyone know of a source for spare parts for this engine? I might be interested in a new prop drive washer and Woodruff key. Also a belt. And an intake pipe. The previous owner must have clamped it in a vise! It is squished a bit on both sides and has teeth marks from the vise jaws.

Uggha!





Castor crud...







Low splines in the center.



Rear bearing is marked as FAG mfg'd but front bearing has no ID marks.



Public Service Announcement: Watch where you set down your flaming torch! [X(]



Now the parts need to soak some more.



Old 07-21-2011, 12:21 PM
  #13  
turbo.gst
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 763
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

PM sent
Old 07-21-2011, 12:34 PM
  #14  
earlwb
 
earlwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grapevine, TX
Posts: 5,993
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

Brass is good for spacers on the wrist pin, as it is more soft than steel is. It is used a lot on engines, especially the old vintage engines.
The problem with 2 stroke engines is ensuring the spacers aren't open to any of the intake boost or exhaust ports on the engine. Otherwise you have to use snap rings or C-clips. But with a 2 stroke engine it isn't a problem of course.

Yeah the belt could be a problem to find a new one. Fortunately they tend to last a long time though.
I think some sources like Small Parts might have the belt, but you have to measure and identify it though. http://www.smallparts.com/b/16411421/ref=iss_16411421

Yeah you could use sealed bearings. They might have been sealed originally, but over the years that went away of course.



Old 07-21-2011, 03:01 PM
  #15  
gkamysz
Senior Member
My Feedback: (19)
 
gkamysz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Crystal Lake, IL
Posts: 3,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

This is what I ran into with my T4-40. There are no sealed variety in the main bearing size. The belt if not cracking or fraying should be fine. The 40 uses a non-standard size (no. teeth) and McMaster and a few other places I looked doesn't have them.

The T4-60 rear bearing is clearly a 6001, a very common size, and readily available with seals. The front bearing will also be available with seals as it has shields now.
Old 07-21-2011, 05:58 PM
  #16  
Kmot
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (24)
 
Kmot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 10,956
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

I have answered my own question about the low splines on the crank. It is machined that way, so that when the belt is riding in it the surface is even all the way across.

I got started on the cleanup today and made some good progress. I used two grades of 3M ScotchBrite and some steel wool. Tools used were my fingers and a popsicle stick. I basically wanted to get all the dried castor crust out of the bearing pockets, and the dried corrosion powder from the inside of the crankcase.

I cleaned up the combustion chamber and both ports. The drum valve timing is interesting. With the timing mark at TDC the intake and exhaust ports are both open helping to scavenge the exhaust and bring in a fresh load of fuel.

The piston pin (wrist pin, gudgeon pin, etc) cleaned up well and so did the piston (It was horribly stuck together before) so I am happy with that. Everything is moving nice and freely now. The bearings will be replaced of course.

The carb needed a good soak in the denatured alcohol and after a few hours of soaking I disassembled it. It is next on the cleanup list.

Here are all the parts, minus the carb.



And here are the carb parts.



Front bearing pocket.



Cylinder bore.



Rear bearing pocket and other internal steps. There are four steps that needed to be cleaned up as well as the area between he bearings.



Piston and pin.



Connecting rod.



Cleaning the ports in the head.







Crankshaft cleaned up.


Old 07-21-2011, 07:32 PM
  #17  
the Wasp
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: VT
Posts: 4,531
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes on 13 Posts
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

wow, I always wanted one of these T4's from back when I first saw one years ago before I started flying, never had one tho,, my friend has an 80 "NIB", but before you ask he wont sell, well maybe if someone offers him $500 (but I don't know)

good luck !!
Jim
Old 07-22-2011, 03:51 AM
  #18  
earlwb
 
earlwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grapevine, TX
Posts: 5,993
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

It is looking almost new now. Nice cleaning job.

I forgot to say, that I made a new Woodruff key for my old Webra .60 engine. It was missing. So since I had some key stock I had gotten at the hardware store that was a little too large, I used a file and carefully filed it down to just fit, and then cut off the excess length to match.


Old 07-22-2011, 05:59 AM
  #19  
controlliner
 
controlliner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

The piston looks like high silicon aluminum.[8D] Big giggle on the torch thing
Old 07-22-2011, 01:58 PM
  #20  
Kmot
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (24)
 
Kmot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 10,956
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

I had been wondering about taking the head apart. Was unsure how tight the bolt might be, or whether it had a right hand or left hand thread. Well I decided to try it this morning, and the bolt actually is pretty easy to unscrew. It has a normal right hand thread. Once the bolt was out, I could see the cog pulley was keyed to the drum valve. It also required an arbor press to push apart. The roll pin that keys the two parts together is tiny! Do not lose this if you take yours apart!

Once the head was disassembled I was able to do a better job of cleaning things up.

I removed the carburetor parts from the alcohol bath and cleaned them up this morning also.

Lastly, I decided to try some Dawn Power Dissolver spray on the exhaust pipe and muffler, and some of the other engine parts to get the last traces of burnt castor oil. The DPD worked like magic on the exhaust header and muffler, but it also severely discolored all the aluminum engine parts. Let this be a warning to all. You just never know how these chemicals will react. The muffler is aluminum and it came out great. The engine is aluminum and it was visually ruined. Different alloy compounds I imagine. Maybe a metallurgist knows. If I was not already scheduled to be painting this engine I would really have been ticked off.... [:@]

I have done up other engines already in two of the three primary colors, red and green. So this engine I am going to paint in the third primary color.

Carburetor parts cleaned up.



Head disassembled and cleaned up.





Note the roll pin and keyways.





Dawn Power Dissolver. Muffler and pipe look great, all other parts are FUBAR!







Scrubbing with a Scotch Brite pad could not remove the black splotches from the lower side of the crankcase.



Old 07-22-2011, 07:52 PM
  #21  
Kmot
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (24)
 
Kmot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 10,956
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

I got the first coat of paint on. Typically I find that I need to shoot a second coat to cover some areas better. But the paint has to dry for a week before another coat of paint can be applied. I can usually push this though by baking the parts in an oven.

We'll see. Maybe all I will need to do is a touchup with a brush.

Now keep in mind these are not the finished parts. Don't freak out yet. [X(]

It'll get worse!





Old 07-23-2011, 01:13 PM
  #22  
Kmot
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (24)
 
Kmot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 10,956
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

Here is the beginning of the highlighting of the cooling fins:



Three hours later, it looked like this. This is just the first go around. I will have to keep doing it with finer grits of sand paper.

Old 07-23-2011, 02:19 PM
  #23  
Broken Wings
My Feedback: (20)
 
Broken Wings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Cocoa, FL
Posts: 2,085
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

Is that OS LA Blue?.........
Old 07-23-2011, 02:48 PM
  #24  
earlwb
 
earlwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grapevine, TX
Posts: 5,993
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

It is looking good. I would have likely gone with black but blue looks good.

Old 07-23-2011, 04:48 PM
  #25  
Kmot
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (24)
 
Kmot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 10,956
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Webra T4-60 : Man, I hate a dirty engine!

It is "Ford Dark Blue" engine paint. LOL, never even crossed my mind about those blue OS engines!

I was considering black, but I have already done a black engine. So I wanted blue, and I went with dark blue (close to black).

Well, I have gone about as far as I can go now. I need to order some parts. So here it is mocked up to get an idea of how it will eventually look.

The black engine.



The OS LA blue engine.










Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.