tilsonm

My Feedback: (1)

I have a new Saito 100. I can't get it to start. It will give several popping sounds and quit trying. The spinner comes loose everyttime I try.

I got it going once some how. It was very rich and burned about 8 oz. in 2 or 3 minutes at very low rpm. Ihave the hs needle at 4 open and haven't touched the low side. I'm using a corded electric drill for a starter. My Hobico burned up trying to start this thing.

I've tried open throttle, closed throttle, half-open, aired out the engine with the plug out, primed the engine, checked the plug, and scratched my head. No luck. It's acts like it's backfiring or something. It just keeps knocking the spinner loose.

This is my first 4 stroke and I'm stuck.

jimmyjames213

My Feedback: (2)

lean the low end out...saito's are normally very rich from the factory

CustomPC

Dumb Question.

Is your drill turning the correct direction?

It would need to be running in reverse to start an engine.

Campgems

Four turns on the high end seems a bit much. Most of my Saitos are closer to 2 to 2 1/2 turns.

Have you resisted the urge to take a look inside? If not, you may have got the cam out of time.

Start at about 1/8th to 1/4 throttle. More throttle makes it very dificult to start.

Don

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

I agree that 4 turns out is a lot. Try 2 like Don said

maukaonyx

Agree with others...go to 2 or 2.5 turns to start with. What plug are you using? Use the OS Type F. Make sure the engine is primed...you need to hear that slushy sound when you hand flip the prop. My Saito's and OS's always start as long as the plug is good and the engine is wet. Good luck. Jon

tilsonm

My Feedback: (1)

I set the hs to 4 because the silly Saito manual said 5 turns on 100's to 180's for a "rich" breakin.  It also said not to jack with the ls setting.

But I agree with everyone here.  I'll try 2 1/2 to 3.   And, yes, I'm turning it the right way.  Of course, it should start either way.

Thanks for all the help.  I can't try again until tomorrow.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

First, any popping and spinner loosening means it's too lean. The 5 turns out setting that's in the Saito manual is really the best setting to break in the engine. And, the engine needs breaking in more than most do. The high fuel consumption you experienced is normal with all Saitos. This is part of the sloppy rich break in period.

After setting the hs needle to 5 turns out, run it for 10 minutes at or under 4000 rpm as the manual says. You should put about 40 minutes on it before putting on a model. Hobbsy has great advice on running in the engine, so here is an outline:

next tank run the engine at 5500 rpm for 10 minutes
next tank run the engine at 6500 rpm for 10 minutes
last tank run the engine at 7500

you should be beginning to lean out the ls by now. The best way to do that is to peak your hs needle. Don't richen it; leave it peaked. Then, set your ls slowly by leaning it. The ideal point is where the engine takes full throttle without stumbling, wheezing, or backfiring. You usually find that point by going 1/16 to 1/8 turn too lean, and then backing off 1/16 of a turn to set it. You may have to peak your hs a few times during the ls tuning process. The ls is the most important nv as is controls about 75% of the throttle range.

Hobbsy may use a bit different rpms for the first 40 minutes. Also, during that time I'm beginning to give mine some full throttle blips with extended wide open times as it breaks in.

In the end, follow the manual for break in.

lopflyers

My Feedback: (12)

Hi, I have a Saito 100 4 stroke, it is a yr old and has flown twice, that is how much headaches it has given me.
I found the most help in the Welcome to Club Saito thread.
Lots of good people there with lots of experience with Saitos.
On the other hand I also have a Saito 55 4 stroke that runs like a pro. I hand start that thing all the time, it is quite and never had a dead stick.
Go figure[X(]

tilsonm

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks BLW.  Of course the others seem to think I'm too rich.  My problem is, other than one time, I've been unable to start the thing at 4 - 5 turns.

Any ideas why I can't get it going with 4 - 5 and why is keeps "lean poping"?

Seems like I'm getting conflicting symptoms.

Campgems

No, it won't start either way. Well it may start reversed, but it won't run for long.
some of the small 049s with the reed vave would run in either direction. but the only time a four stroke will run reverse is when it has a load of fuel in the muffler/exhaust. It will run for a few seconds off that fuel, but that's it.

You said in your first post that it was a new engine. Is that new to you or really new in the box from a dealer? If you bought the engine from a hobby shop, take it back and have them show you how to get it running. If you bought it from Horizon, send it back.

You didn't answer my eariler question, have you been under the hood of this engine?

Don

jimmyjames213

My Feedback: (2)

im guessing it is either lean somehow (something blocking fuel flow)
or you are way too rich so it is fireing before it ever gets to the top of the stroke.

BIGDAMMODELS

It sounds as if you are extremely rich...[1]..you are probably spinning the prop loose from it being "hydraulic locked" with fuel on the compression stroke...you'll break or bend something if not careful...[2]..a glow plug can only do so much when soaked with oil from excessively rich mixtures...remember it doesn't burn...only lubricates....be sure the Glow Battery here is up to par...[3]...check valve adjustment and make sure they are operating properly...no bent pushrods....[4]..as stated...it won't run backwards....without serious modifications...research 4 stroke engine operation and get a better understanding of it's operation....Saito makes a great product from my experience with them...unlikely a defect....

tilsonm

My Feedback: (1)

To Don: No I haven't looked under the hood other than the valve covers.  The valves are opening and closing properly.  I have no idea how to tell if they're doing it with proper timing.  This is a new engine but I bought it over the internet so can't really visit to get suggestions on starting it.

To All:  From what I'm getting from everyone, I'm either too lean or too rich.  Some say close the HS down to 2 1/2 while others say leave it open to 5 like the Saito manual says.  Only one thing is for certain, it's not right.  The glow plug is the new one from the factory.  The glow starter is hot with a dial and meter to let me set how hot I want it.  I have it in the "green" zone.  The fuel is new.

I'm thinking the thing is hydro-locking as someone suggested.  It can't require a super-high torque corded drill to start one of these things.  The only thing that doesn't seem consistent with the hydro-locking is that poping sound while I'm turning it over.  It sounds like some sort of ignition but not like normal muffler sound.

What I really need is someone who bought the same motor new to tell me how they first got it started. 

Thanks again for all the help.  Just FYI, I started messing with these small airplane motors 50 years ago.  You'd think I'd have it down by now.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

I first started mine at about 2 turns out

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

Til, just do as Barry says and his method will give you a repeatable and easy to keep track of way to break in any Saito in 40 to 45 minutes. If you take the time to get the LS needle dialed in now you won't have to fool with again for a long time.

earlwb

Hummm. If a number of people have tried to start the engine, and they have tweaked, it etc. It sounds like something is wrong with it.
hard to say over the internet of course.
Are you trying to run the engine on a test stand or in a airplane. if in a airplane, remove the engine and try it on a test stand. That helps isolates problems when it is out in the open for easy access.

I would check the valve adjustments first. They maybe too large or closed up on you..
The other possibility is the camshaft is not timed correctly, usually the engine will run if the camshaft is off one tooth, but more than that it usually won't run.

I assume you have had others work with you on getting the engine running. But if not, I am in Grapevine straight up north from you. We could arrange to meet at our club flying  field (<cite> http://www.114thrc.org) </cite> or somewhere to see if we can get it to work or not.

tilsonm

My Feedback: (1)

I'm going to try Hobbsy's approach.  I scares me because it is so lean compared to the manual recommendation.  But I'm getting nowhere now.

Earlwb:  No one else has tried to start this motor.  I'm the problem.  I may have to come to Grapevine to see you.  It is mounted on a stand.

I'll be back later this pm.

Thanks again.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

If Hobsey's method doesn't work (it should) change the glow plug (even if it looks good)

tilsonm

My Feedback: (1)

OK.  Here's the answer.

1st - it was too rich and, in combination with throttle setting, it was having a hard time trying to start.

However, that wasn't the main problem.  I put an rpm check on the thing while I was turning it over without the plug or fuel as Hobbsy suggested.  The starter (remember it's a carpender-grade electric drill) was spinning the motor at 7120 rpm.  It was over-spinning and outrunning the motor.  Then there was another thing, the silicon starter insert kept melting.  The melt caused a greasy substance on the spinner.  That, in turn, caused the starter to slip.  In order to get the motor to turn over, I had to press very hard against the spinner.  I was pressing so hard that I stopped the motor from starting with the overspin of the high-rpm starter.  I couldn't use low rpm on the starter because of the slipping.  Catch 22.

The simple fix.  Get a new high-torque starter made for glow engines.

What an experience.

Thanks very much for your help.  I'm sure I'll be back begging for something before long.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

It never ceases to amaze me - all of the little things that can bite you in the butt!

flycatch

My Feedback: (26)

I'm new to Saito like yourself however in the pass I have used nothing but OS 4 cycle engines. OS and Saito are not the same in their operation. OS is turnkey while Saito needs adjusting. I currently have three Saito 1.8FS engines and no two are alike. Of the three two would backfire during start-up and it had nothing to do with the mixture setting. Another modeler suggested I retighten the prop nuts and the problem went away. Needle vale setting of the HS needle vale varies from engine to engine but don't set it at 2 turns out because your still running lean. Follow the instructions from the manufacture and you should be fine. Everyone has an opinion but most are missleading. The manufacture wants you to buy more of their products so they won't mislead you in there instructions. Purchase a brand name fuel such as Byron 20/20 and your engine will love you for it. I run this fuel in all my FS engines and the smoke trail it leaves is a beautiful sight. Since the engine is brand new it is under warranty and Horizon will fix it at no charge should you feel the engine is defective.

tilsonm

My Feedback: (1)

It is funny how weird things bite you.  I'm an ex computer hardware/software guy and I should have caught this immediately.  You should always ask yourself "what's new/different/changed?".  In this case, it was my starting mechanism.

I'll go with the rich setting for a while.  It's much harder to start and sucks fuel like an elephant.  But it's safe.  I've blown the top out of pisons before running too lean.  Also after buying a new Dyna Tron starter, I found that regular starters are really only recommended up to .90 sized engines.

Good luck to you guys and remember which way is up when you're inverted!  I've missed that a few times too.

kidcrashalot

How much nitro are using?

Campgems

Mike, glad you are making progress.

The big Saitos need a big starter. Cone size is a real issue. the standard size cones just don't have enough bite on a spinner to start and engine that size, and the slipage buggers up your spinner. I picked up one of the geared starters that has a 3 to 4" cone on it and it struggles when the engine is being cantankorus. The Sulivan 122 / 24 volt heavey duty has the power you need at 24 v, but it is to fast and has too small a cone to be useful for the big engines, including my O.S 1.20s.

There is a guy that advertises in some of the magazines for a modification for your starters that gives reduced speed and a larger cone. I've been meaning to contact him to get some detials, but haven't as yet. I know that just the cone from Sulivan for their large starte is $45, so a modification isn't going to be cheep, even a DIY one.

Again, glad you got it running. Once tuned, it should be just fine. The thing I like about the Saitos is that once you have them tuned, they are like your car, start them and drive away, no fiddling with the mix every time you fly. Once tuned, they stay that way.

Don