378

My Feedback: (4)

I never noticed an MPG difference between the two, but then again I'm hovering between 14 and 17 anyway, soo...

hugger-4641

My Feedback: (6)

At first I didn't think there was any difference either. But for the last few months I've been working about 90 miles from home, which is exactly one tank of gas for one round trip on my Goldwing and two round trips in the other vehicles. I drive the same route at the same speeds day after day and I've compared both types of gas several times in each vehicle. I don't have any idea why the two Fords show no difference between the two types of gas, but the bike and the van definitely do.

earlwb

I can see the fuel miles per gallon change with the seasons here in Texas. My car's MPG changes with the seasonal fuel mix changes out here.
But in any case, Yes, a engine burning methanol does burn more per mile than a engine burning gasoline. But the power increase is greater with methanol than gasoline. You can see the difference if you have converted some edge trimmer engines like I have before. You get like 20% to 40% more power with methanol than gasoline in the same engine. Plus methanol helps cool the engine more so you can push it harder too. If I remember right, ethanol does the same thing than methanol does, but glow plugs don't work with it though. But one could keep the glow plugs lit up using a battery and controller on them. There used to be a company that made current sensing on board glow ignitors for airplane engines years ago. I used some of them before myself too. You could leave it on all the time and if the glow plug cooled off it applied more current to it and if the glow plug got too hot it lowered the current flow to the plug. I found that they worked pretty good actually. You could get more time out of a glow plug before its performance degraded too much or it eventually failed. So anyway, we could reinvent those glow plug ignitors once again for car engines.

Of course for a Chevy V-8 we need some really big Perry Carbs.

tiffitech

@378:


...sorry this is nonsense.

I coming from germany, territory of the former GDR.
They build 2-strokers for thent's of years here for use in cars. There where 3 cylinder engines sounding just like the saab on youtube)
in the "Wartburg" with 1000ccm, 55hp (had one) and the well known "Trabbi" an 2 cylinder 600ccm engine with 26 hp (had this one too)
Both engines where for 1:33 (Oil/GAS) and 1:50 later, your big end failures where a non issue. Besides of this, both cars where
equipped with an free wheeling gear, the Wartburg in all gears, the Trabbi only in the fourth gear.
You don't want the engine for breaking in this cars, since a 2-stroker doesn't brake as much as a 4-stroker.
The old GDR 2-stroker engines are successors of old DKW developed engines before the WW2.

Regards,

Holm

Edit: here is a nice video of an rally with historic cars around the Wartburg (old castle that gave the Wartburg Car his name, near Eisenach Germany). There are Wartburgs in 3 Versions, an old 311 (gray car with the number 75), some 353W (3 cylinder 2-strokers also) (first care with the siren for example) and a newer one Wartburg 1.3 , which has an 4 Cylinder 4-stroker VW engine build in the GDR for VW and mostly exported (they build still VW engines here nearby vor VW in Mosel)).
The Trabant with his 2 Cylinder 2 Stoker is to be seen also, (the first small green car for example). His Engine had 600ccm only 26HP, was air cooled ( that means almost no heater in the Winter) and Crankshaft rotary intake valve. The Trabant aka Trabbi is still the very best car to drive in the winter :-)

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKmpgRXWRbI&feature=related]Youtube[/link]

It's really not simple to find videos w/o annoying background music anymore, why people are doing that?

Another Nice one, it isn't only horsepower what you need..

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCDJngP9Sdc&feature=related]BWM M3....[/link]

378

My Feedback: (4)

If it's nonsense then why did they install overrun clutches in them? There isn't much engine braking in automatic cars either, torque converter slip being the reason, but they lack overrun clutches that disengage the engine on decel. Diesels lack a significant engine braking effect by default, they require separate systems to generate any meaningful engine braking, but they also lack any sort of freewheeling mechanism.

the reason is that two stroke engines depend on their fuel for their lubrication, and when you're doing engine braking maneuvers you have a high RPM, high load, no throttle situation. This means an oil starved two stroke, it won't be pulling enough fuel at idle settings to lubricate the engine properly under these conditions and will damage the engine if allowed to continue for a significant amount of time. You either need to disengage the engine or absolutely flood it with oil in order to avoid engine damage. If that wasn't the case the Wartburg and Trabbi would not have had their overrun clutches. Simply lacking a significant engine braking effect is not a reason to warrant installing extra complexity and failure points into the gearbox, such systems would only be installed if there were a compelling reason to.

tiffitech

This is simply a non issue, Millions of bikes have 2-strokers w/o those overrun clutches.
You ever heard of seperate oil pumps for lubrication (in german "Frischölschmierung)?
The Big ends have roller bearings that don't need much oil to survive, that construction
is well known for many years, why do you think it should be make problems in the future?
BTW: People like me learned to loosen the clutch and to give small amounts of gas from time to time
if you drive downhill such a car, never ever had a big end failure..
Even the Trabbi has this free wheeling mechanism (consisting of only 3 springs and 3
bearing rollers) only in the fourth gear...
Your car should be equipped with brakes, than there is nor real need to brake with the engine.

Please simply accept that such cars are existing and the engines are doing very well in them.
Regards,

Holm

378

My Feedback: (4)

Yes, I have, and I'm not talking about engines running them.

Sorry for wanting to drive safely. Next time I'll make sure to get my service brakes red hot holding the speed back down a steep hill instead of dropping two cogs and letting the engine maintain speed instead.


What could possibly go wrong?! /sarcasm


Engine braking is an important element in maintaining control of a car on descents. It leaves the wheel brakes free for panic stops and can add tens of thousands of miles to the life of brake linings. If you don't engine brake you're costing yourself needless money on brake jobs that you wouldn't need otherwise, and you may be putting others at risk by potentially overheating your brakes. Using it in the city will improve your city mileage and further prolong the life of your brake pads.

jaav

I have no problem with glow engines.. Its just the abusive Customer who has no idea what hes bought or cant understand instructions...

earlwb

That is not true. I rode many motorcycles with 2 stroke engines in them, and I used the engine for braking all the time. The bottom end never went bad on them. The little 50cc or 49cc mopeds and scooters use engine braking and they are not failing either. In Europe they made many cars with two stroke engines in them and the cars worked just fine with engine braking. We have numerous RC cars and trucks that use 2 stroke engines and they all have some form of engine braking built in and those car engines didn't have bottom end problems from engine braking either. Our RC model airplane engines still have engine braking in them even with a airplane propeller on the engine, and we don't see the bottom end getting any worse for it.

rgburrill

Diesel engines and their glow plugs have been around almost as long as gas engines. And glow engines are not that far behind. Don't forget,part of the reason fuel is so expensive is it is used for drag racing too. This is not a new hobby, despite what some of you younger people may think. The only new(er) part is that battery technology has come a very long way so now we can have usable electric motors are large aircraft that were not feasible 20 years ago.

Thanks,
Bob

rgburrill

So those engines burn roughly 8 ounces in at most 10 minutes. Taking that up to your 350 cu in rounds out to around 250 gallons per hour. At $20 per gallon (it's been a while since I bought fuel) that works out to $5000 per hour to run that engine. I'll stick with gas.

Thanks,
Bob

Sport_Pilot

Or replace the batteries every 50 drives or so.

Sport_Pilot

Sport_Pilot

Our tanks act pretty much like the carb bowls on a gas automobile carb. If you have a small gas engine with the tank directly behind it the pumped carb has no advantage over a normal glow carb.

tiffitech

@378: Common guy. Accept that you are seeing problems where are none.
Building Cars with 2-stokers is very old practice even w/o lubrication pumps and I don't think that this cars
where only used in flat lands.. Maybe if you are driving such a car, you should customize it by adding a Parachute
to improve it's security...;-)

Is it true, that in the US are different driver licenses for cars that using automatic switching gear boxes and
for cars that have hand switched gears and a clutch? Maybe they should add an license for 2-stroke driven cars and bikes
who the driver is able to understand what's going on in its engine and can react accordingly.

It was in my country where the Otto (and Diesel) engines where invented and the first cars and bikes are built.
An company called MZ 20km away from here has a very long tradition on building 2-stroke bikes, it is
an successor of the former DKW. The Trabant 600ccm engine in my links above originally was an 500ccm Bike racing engine
before it was modifies and used for the Trabant.
..no Big end Failures or burned out brakes and I'm living here around 470m above sea level, Mountains here around.
This Region is called Erzgebirge in Saxony, Erzgebirge rawly translates to "Ore Mountains".

Regards,

Holm

Edit:

A friend gave me such an lubricating pump from some Bike some time before, have taken an picture for you and here comes it.
It seems to be complex like our Glow engines, why do you think that manufacturers leave out this part when it is so urgently necessary
like you think?

378

My Feedback: (4)

Yeah, and they were obsolete the day they hit the road. Four strokes are just plain better in cars for a myriad of reasons.

Negative. You are given a license based on the class of vehicle you want, based on GVWR. Below 16,000 pounds, with hydraulic brakes, is a Class D license, this is what most of us have and what a two cycle car would fall under. The only mechanical attribute that factors into it is the braking system, air brakes are automatically a Class C regardless of GVWR.

For the record manuals are beyond rare here. I insist on them, but this has SEVERELY stunted my choice in cars. I either have to buy used or buy very specific, very expensive models, everything else has an automatic. And if I want a truck, which I do because I like how versatile and useful they are when the weather goes to hell or when I need to tow or haul something, I absolutely must buy used, nobody in America sells a new truck with a %(@(*$%ing manual gearbox!


I know that's an odd thing to hear for you, being that you live in Europe where the magic of the third pedal is not lost to the ages, but that's just how it is over here. And it's very annoying.


Does make for a good anti-theft system though. Thieves can't steal it if they can't get it to move, after all.


/rant

It would be pointless, as it is illegal to operate two stroke vehicles on public highways in the first place. The smoke is a sight hazard, you can and will get a ticket and fixit order if your four stroke car is so badly worn that it smokes heavily for the same reason, not to mention the environmental mess they make. Horribly filthy things that are only legal to use off-highway, and even there four strokes are very quickly stamping their authority on the market. Two stroke dirtbikes and quadbikes are getting hard to find, four strokes are easier to work on and run soooo much cleaner. Cheaper to feed, too, no need to buy oil and mix the fuel.

tiffitech

Yes we agree that 2-strokers are not that "non plus ultra". Nobody is still building cars with 2-strokers anymore, but that's only for environmental reasons. That fiddling with oil and mixture isn't (wasn't) really a problem, since there where gas pumps on the gas stations where you could simply set what mixture you wanted (1:50, 1:33, 1:25 or no oil) with an dial wheel.
Here are the driver licenses classified according the size (weight class) of the truck, I have Licenses for small bikes, for big bikes (open end)
and cars until 2.8t mass, the brake system isn't of any interest so far as i know. There additional restrictions for buses although..

Trucks with and hand switched gear are available new, but there is some assistant system, you aren't really shifting the gears by hand anymore. And yes, so far as I know most normal personal cars still have 3 pedals, you can by automatic but most people wouldn't, so I'm too..
That this isn't the case in the US isn't really new for me, and I drove automatic cars already in the past, so I know both worlds..

Waht makes this antio theft system, the automatic? Lough.. If they want your car, they come with a crane...


What the heck is GVWR?

You can drive with any engine type on the highway here so long as it is able to reach more than 60 km/h (in the papers, not what the car or bike really can do) and you can drive as fast as you can when there isn't a limit on the road for some reasons. (as you surely already know, Not all americans know where germany is located, but what a german autobahn is, the all know it seems..)

If you drive a car that's so badly worn that is smokes a lot (not according the environmental conventions= that your car doesn't get
the next technical certificate that you need every two years. (called TüV here, official name is "main investigation", the TüV is one of two companies that is doing such investigations). The exhaust gets analyzed during this investigation, even on a 2 stroker that still can be driven here)

4-strokers are easier? Don't think so. Cleaner? No. Better for our world and environment, that's true.

Regards,

Holm

378

My Feedback: (4)

That's never been the case here. The only two strokes that ever graced American roads were bikes where the rider handled the oil mixing, and old Detroits that had a closed sump and didn't require oil to be taken in with the fuel and air at all.

Interesting. Here there's just four, Class A through D, then for motorbikes you have Class M. Beyond that you can get endorsements, Class C +P means you have a passenger endorsement, a requirement for a bus > 14 passengers, and there's endorsements for things like hazmat, heavy haul and the like. None of that is of importance to 99% of the driving public though, only those who seek jobs that require such endorsements.

You can't even get a light truck with a manual anymore. The Ford Ranger is dead, and the Chevy Colorado only comes with the piss weak I4 and 2WD, and even then has to be special ordered straight through Chevrolet. The half-ton pickup, which is what I seek, has precisely zero manual gearbox options in the class. NOBODY offers one.

Reverse that and you have an idea of American car lots. Seas of PRNDLs, no H-gates to be found most of the time. Especially in the new sections. Even the crummy bargain bin models that have manuals in Europe have to be special ordered with them, the dealers only stock auto.

Car thieves don't know how to drive stick. Owning a manual car, thus, offers a considerable anti-theft protection, as even if the thief can get into it and get it hotwired they will be unable to drive it and will just give up. As for coming with a crane or tow truck, that won't happen. They'll just go to another car with an automatic.

Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. That is, the maximum rated weight the vehicle can handle, including the vehicle, full tank of fuel, driver, and any trailers applicable. This is usually limited by the brakes moreso than anything else. My F150 is rated at 9,500 pounds, which means I can tow about 5,000 pounds including trailer and still be within the limits of the vehicle, the other 4,500 pounds being the weight of the truck itself.

The half-ton designation is merely the carrying capacity, IE I can only carry up to a thousand pounds in the bed without damaging the axles, although this does include the tongue weight of any hitched trailers.

Yeah, sounds about right for Europe, and considerably different here. Any vehicle that's legal to register must meet pretty strict environmental regulations(They pertain to that vehicle's year, my truck needs to meet 1985 regulations since it was made in 1985, but they're strict just the same), and no two stroke car can meet those regs. It simply cannot be registered, and if it cannot be registered it isn't legal to drive on public highways.

There's counties here in Tennessee that don't require any testing at all. You simply drive down to the courthouse, pay a fee to renew the tags, and apply a sticker to the license plate affirming as such. As a result it is perfectly plausible to see some worn-the-hell-out relic from 1978 running more on it's own motor oil than gasoline trundling along smoking the highway up. Police being able to issue fixit tickets to owners ensures that vehicles this badly worn out don't cause a visibility hazard to other motorists.

As for my county, all they check is HC, CO and NOx emissions. As long as those three are within parameters, and it is fitted with a catalytic converter, it will pass. Limits are: 220PPM, 1.2% and I forget the NOx regulation, respectively. I had mine pass this test while puffing blue on decel, so even then it's possible to get an engine that blue smokes to pass emissions.


I did have the head rebuilt, it no longer burns oil.

Yup. Straight gas goes in. No need to mix oil in a given ratio, that's stored in the sump and isn't burned. You also need not worry about fouling plugs unless you let the carb get way out of whack or it is so worn out it's burning oil.

Much cleaner. The only thing coming out the back of a healthy four stroke gasoline engine is carbon dioxide, water vapor and a miniscule, negligible amount of unburned fuel.


Yup, for the same reasons they're cleaner.

tiffitech

I'll reply tomorrow with a little more details. My drivers license is rater old (but still ok, it still has some numerical classes).
The license card from my wife is newer and there are Lettered classes that sound like those that you are mentioned.
I'll take a closer look to her license and will report.

Cars have different environmental classes here (No Cat, Euro 1, Euro 2, Euro 3) and you ave to pay a different amount of tax for them.
Cars in old classes are getting more expensive from time to time, this way they want to sort out old smokers.
Don't ask me about concrete restrictions but it seems they want to classify cars on how much CO2 they produce for 100 km or so...

Running on Oil :-) We say to this time he is checking the gasoline in the tank and is buying Oil on the Gas Station...., mostly
young people with "Sports Cars", 45 hp, small wheels and loud pipes..

Now I understand how you mean a four stroker is cleaner, but that's the same point as the last.
As I already wrote, mixing Oil to the fuel was no issue here, but that pumps are getting sorted out, even if we have
many class M bikes here...

Regards,

Holm

jessiej

Maybe so. I have a 1968 that doesn't like anything but high-test and a '64 Triumph TR-4 that prefers high test plus an octane booster. Naturally neither of them have either fuel injection or electronig ignition. The late lamented leaded fuel would be better for both[]

BTW some years back I traveled frequently to Lebanon TN on business. I remember it as a lovely area with lots of friendly people.

jess

Farmer Ted

My Feedback: (5)

Wow, this thread is a little scary with misinformation.

A two stroke "Glow" RC engine is (basically) just a 2 stroke diesel.

A four stroke "glow" RC engine is (basically) a four stroke diesel...very similar (in principle and operation but without fuel injection) to the 4 stroke diesels in cars and trucks.

Diesel engines use the heat of compression for ignition, the glow plug is just there to provide an ignition source to get the thing started. In glow airplane engines, the glow plug does continue to act, to some degree, as an ignition source along with the heat of compression.

Gasoline engines use an electric spark for ignition and can be run with minor modifications on alcohol, natural gas, and most any other flammable vapor

The 'nitro' fuel you use in a glow engine is not the same as a Top Fuel Dragster...it is mostly (if not completely) methanol with castor oil mixed in for lubrication. Obviously, some nitromethane is mixed in some fuels but it's not 100%. IF it was even close to 100% nitromethane, you'd have to mortgage your house to buy it...plus it's extremely explosive and volatile.

The stoichiometric (or ideal) air/ fuel ratio for gasoline engines is 14.7:1 by weight, not volume. This means that it takes 14.7 pounds of air to burn one pound of gasoline. The average gasoline automobile strives to achieve this as much of the time as it can as this is where the best combination of power, emissions, and economy exist. The vehicle's powertrain management system will intentionally run the mixture richer and leaner than this under different conditions but stoichiometiric is what it's shooting for as much of the time as possible.

Ethanol makes a great fuel in some respects but it has about 34% less chemical energy than gasoline. Therefore, an engine would need to burn about 20-30% more on E-85 or 50% more on E-100 to give power figures that are comparable to gasoline. Because of it's lower volatility, engines that are designed to run on 100% ethanol can benefit from increased compression ratios to get back some of the power.

Ethanol, like everything in life, has advantages and disadvantages. It is a cleaner and renewable fuel when compared to gasoline but we currently expend more energy producing it than we get out of it, this could change in the future as new technologies develop.

Gasoline engines in cars today are more powerful (not to mention cleaner and lower maintenance) than they've EVER been. When you compare apples to apples by comparing power output per unit of displacement, you'll see what I mean. Plus, you can almost breathe the exhaust on a new engine once it's warmed up because they run exponentially cleaner than they did 40-50 years ago. Don't believe me? drive behind a 50 year old car and tell me what you smell. Now go drive behind a new car.

With that being said, the best internal combustion engine's efficiency is only 18-20%. That means that only 18-20% of the chemical energy in the fuel goes to the wheels, propeller, etc. The rest is wasted mainly as heat. Compare that to the average brushed electric motor at +/- 50% and a brushless electric motor approaching 90%. Factor in the flat torque curve, simplicity, and reliability of electric motors and I'll ditch all of the internal combustion engines that I own, including my car, for one.

Electric cars, along with steam and gasoline, were prevalent at the turn of the 20th century. Gasoline won because of it's cost, availability, and range. Gasoline did not win because if it's superiority. The thing that held electric cars back 100 years ago is the same thing that holds them back today...the battery technology. Because gasoline won the contest 100 years ago, that's what was developed. Battery technology has exploded in the last 20 years, wait and see what it does in the next 20.

If I had a glow engine in my car, I'd ditch it and ride my bicycle instead, it's a theoretical 98% efficient (an actual 88% or so).

KeroPower

I have been following this thread for a while and a glow engine in a car would definately be interesting. After some pondering I have come up with the following plan:

Step 1: Buy a small flex fuel car with a small 4 cylinder enginesuch as a Ford Focus or something.
Step 2: Go to the race track and buy a 55 gallon drum of methonal for about $175.
Step 3: Make glow plug adaptors to replace the four spark plugs.
Step 4: Put an OS F plug in each adaptor.
Step 5: Wire the plugs together and have an on/off switch on the dash.
Step 6: Power the plugs off the car battery with some kind of regulator like what is in the power panel of field boxes.
Step 7: Fill tank with methanol.
Step 8: Turn on glow plugs.
Step 9: Start car and let it warm up.
Step 10: Turn off glow plugs and drive.

Who is going to be the first personto try this?

jessiej

I have never driven a 2 stroke car but I have owned quite a few 2 stroke motorcycles. Most were competetion oriented and ran on pre mix. On long down hills it was wise to give the throttle an occasional blip for lubrication purposes. On the bikes with oil injection, however trailing throttle lubrication (and plug fouling as well) became a non issue.

jess

Sport_Pilot

Glow engines are Otto cycle engines, even the engines we call Diesels are actually Otto cycle engines. They do use compression ignition, but since the fuel is already mixed and not injected through most of the power stroke, the pressure is a spike and not a smooth constant pressure as with a Diesel.

Sport_Pilot

It has been done, in fact with a special glow plug that is patented.