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Anyone speak Saito FA 270t?

Old 08-31-2003, 08:55 PM
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RCJones
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Default Anyone speak Saito FA 270t?

Just took the cowl off of this EZ Cristen Eagle to find a FA 270T. I am still trying to figure out all the wiring and tubing in this plane. It seems it has smoke and an on board glow.

This engine hasn't been run in at least 8yrs. It is a Gk and has 2 plugs per cylinder.

What is my next step? Do all four plugs need to be hot? Does it need to go in for service somewhere? I would like to crank this motor up but don't want to ruin it. It is stiff, I don't know to what extent it is gummed up, as I have never had a gummed up engine. It is beautiful and intend to fly this old plane before it gets retired.

thanks
Old 09-01-2003, 12:21 AM
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William Robison
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Default Anyone speak Saito FA 270t?

Jones:

If it were me I'd pull the engine, remove the backplate, rocker covers, and the glow plugs. Also all the intake and exhaust piping

Turn the engine slowly, make sure all the rockers are moving, and you can feel a little clearance in each of the rockers when the valve is closed.

If you don't feel clearance in any of the valves push down on the adjuster screw of the rocker, see if it then has clearance. If it does, then the tappet is just a little stiff, it will free up with running and warm-up of the engine.

With all the covers off squirt the inside with a 50-50 mix of acetone and after-run oil, the acetone to soften any gummed oil and the oil itself to ensure nothing gets washed dry. Doing this in the cylinders and crankcase will clean and lubricate everything except the cam and followers, and the front bearing.

If you want to worry about the cams you should get new gaskets for the cam boxes for reassembly; the gear mesh is set by the thickness of the gasket.

It's easier (and safer) to hold the engine with the crankshaft pointing down, fill the crankcase with your acetone/oil mix and let it stand overnight. Enough oil will seep through to give the front end fresh lube. The old oil wont be washed out, but there will be some fresh, and the acetone will tend to free up the remaining old oil.

You should adjust the valves before trying to run the engine. Or at least check them.

As you turn the crank you'll note a slight change in its feel when the pistons reach top dead center and bottom dead center. While turning the crank, watch the rockers in one cylinder head. As the crank turns in normal rotation you'll see first the exhaust rocker open its valve, then as the exhaust closes you'll see the inlet start to open. This point of overlap, with both valves open, is TDC between the exhaust and inlet strokes. Turn the crank exactly one full turn, you will be at TDC again, but this time between the compression and power strokes. This is a good position for valve adjustment.

To set the clearance you can use a feeler strip, but there's an easier way.

Loosen the lock nut and spin the adjuster screw, make sure it's free. Now turn it in until you open the valve just a little, back it out and turn it in again. You'll be able to feel when it just comes up snug. Set the screw exactly to that zero clearance point, and holding the screw, tighten the lock nut. There will be enough stretch in the screw and rocker threads that the tension of the lock nut will give you approximately 0.0005" clearance. This is plenty, the clearance opens as the engine warms. Do the other valve on the same head, then find the C/P tdc point for the other cylinder and do the valves on it.

On a single cylinder engine slight valve lash errors wont be noticed, but a twin is more critical. An error in one valve can make the two cylinders have noticeable difference in power, get then as close as you can. I've found my pet method gives more consistent settings, and also compensates for any uneven wear on rocker and valve stem tips.

when you have everything free and adjusted, put it all back together and enjoy the engine.

Gaskets? Unless you pulled a cam you've not disturbed any critical ones, if they look OK just reuse them. You should have a supply of rocker cover gaskets, though, you are going to be pulling them regularly.

There's not a lot of routine maintenance on these engines. Before every flying session I pull the rocker covers and douse the valve gear with oil, giving the rockers a quick wiggle check for clearance, and pump a slug of oil into the crankcase through the vent port. After the day's flying do the standard oil through the intake bit, and another slug in the crankcase. I pull the rocker covers at the start of the session (usually before leaving the house) but not after.

The glow plugs. Use OS type "F" in the rear holes, almost any plug will work in the front, so long as they are matched. For starting you only need to heat the rears.

No, I've not said anything about the fuel system. Just be sure all the ports are open, once it's started the fuel flow will tend to wash any gum out of them.

And If I've scared you enough, just send me the engine. I can make use of it. Haw.

Bill.
Old 09-01-2003, 01:40 AM
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RCJones
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Default Anyone speak Saito FA 270t?

Will Robison? No n?

Thanks,
I sure couldn't have asked for a more complete answer than that although it was suggested I change bearings. I will let you know how it goes. It is my first twin and my third Saito.
Old 09-01-2003, 01:56 AM
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William Robison
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Default Anyone speak Saito FA 270t?

Jones:

Nope. No "N" in the middle. We have some Scottish blood in the family, and when you consider how many times you sign your name saving the ink for that one letter... Haw.

I didn't even think about the bearings.

When you're doing your "Free-up," if the crank feels grindy while turning replace them if it doesn't go away, and new rings at the same time.

If the engine was stored properly the brearings should still be good. And remember the cam gears can give a slight notchy feel also.

Run it, if you can hear the bearings definitely replace them. But you may find as it runs and gets the last of the old oil melted and gone it will smooth right out.

Bill.
Old 09-01-2003, 02:13 AM
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Default Anyone speak Saito FA 270t?

Better tell him about timing if in his teardown he looses it
Old 09-01-2003, 02:15 AM
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William Robison
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Default Anyone speak Saito FA 270t?

Frank:

If he decides to pull the cams we can get into it then.

He has enough to think about for the moment.

Thanks for the suggestion/reminder, though.

Bill.
Old 09-01-2003, 04:18 AM
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RCJones
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Default Anyone speak Saito FA 270t?

I was talking to a guy at the field that had a one tooth timing difference with a Saito twin that meant all the difference. I really hope to stay away from that kind of troubleshooting issue. I'll try everything else first.
Old 09-02-2003, 12:43 AM
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Default Anyone speak Saito FA 270t?

Be careful when turning the engine over, the one I have on the bench (270 twin) for a friend had 2 broken rocker arm mounts due to valves being stuck. Someone turned the engine over and "SNAP" they went. Yes the cam timing is an issue IF the covers are removed. I had to remove them to clean the lifters and bores (gummed up bad). Horizon has a down loadable manual for the 300 (applies to the 270 as well).
Old 09-05-2003, 06:34 PM
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Default William

Why do you have to lube the rockers before each session? I thought the fuel lubed them? I have a 130T and a 300T.
Old 09-05-2003, 07:23 PM
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William Robison
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Default Re: William

Meesh:
Originally posted by Meesh
Why do you have to lube the rockers before each session? I thought the fuel lubed them.
The fuel mixture coming into the engine will lube the inlet valve stem, and the excess oil will lube the exhaust valve stem. But for the rockers to get oil it has to come through the valve guides, or past the tappets and work its way up the pushrod tubes.

The amount of oil that actually gets there is so small that it almost can not be measured.

The engine designers chose materials to give long life in this almost dry environment, so the engine will last a good while without oiling the overheads, and the bottom end was designed with the same thoughts. But wear is a fact of life.

By oiling everything regularly, the actual lubrication is a lot better than relying on the piston blowby, and you will find engine wear is almost non-existant.

Again, as stated, the pre-oiling is not necessary. After run oil also is not necessary. But by doing both, your maintenance expense will take a real nose-dive.

Bill.
Old 09-05-2003, 10:40 PM
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Default Thanks William!

I thought there was some magical way that the fuel (hence the oil) got routed through the top end, oil holes or whatever. Now that I know what is going on I'll oil my top ends regularly.

Bob
Old 09-08-2003, 12:11 PM
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Default And if you DO need new BEARINGS for your new-to-you Saito twin...

Dear RCJones:

The PIPE Here yet again...just got back from the OLD RHINEBECK AERODROME's RC Jamboree meet last weekend, and I DID see a Giant Scale Aeronca C-3 "Flying Bathtub" 1/4th scale model at that meet with a Saito FA-270 on there ...and it sure flew NICE!

Now, if you DO need new BEARINGS for your FA-270T, just check at http://www.bocabearings.com/hobby/ho...anufacturer=98 to find out where you CAN still get crankshaft bearings for your 270, should you need them...Boca Bearings!

A three bearing set for your engine could cost from $28.95 for the "EconoPower", "lower"-quality bearings, or $67.95 for the "High Speed" set...the "ceramic" set is an OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive $127.95, and I'm NOT too sure you'd want to bother with THOSE units at all...but you DO have three different bearing packages to pick from, if you need them, and they're all identified with the "basic" main number ENK-102 for your information.

I've had my 1980s vintage OS FS-40 fitted with both new crankshaft AND CAMSHAFT bearings from Boca, with the actual replacement work being done by Tony Stillman at Radio South (at http://www.radiosouthrc.com/ ...and YES, they DO perform engine repairs like bearing replacement!)...the GRINDING noise that FS-40 of mine HAD made at idle is GONE now, and a similar set of bearings for my equally ancient (20 years old!) OS FS-90 REAR camshaft four stroke has already been purchased for it from Boca, and I'm waiting to have some money available to send IT down to Radio South, to get it fitted with the new bearings I now have for it!

Don't worry about needing new CAMSHAFT bearings for your Saito, though...as just about ALL Saito engines have a hollow camshaft, which spins on a sizable diameter PIN instead, and just has no place for a ball bearing on its camshaft...and it doesn't need them at all, as I suppose that's one of Gen Saito's "better ideas" for the four strokers HE's designed over the years!

Just hoping that your Saito 270 twin might not need them...but now you DO know where you CAN get replacement crankshaft bearings for your engine if they ARE needed!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!
Old 12-15-2020, 11:06 AM
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Default Saito valves open reverse

Originally Posted by William Robison View Post
Jones:

If it were me I'd pull the engine, remove the backplate, rocker covers, and the glow plugs. Also all the intake and exhaust piping

Turn the engine slowly, make sure all the rockers are moving, and you can feel a little clearance in each of the rockers when the valve is closed.

If you don't feel clearance in any of the valves push down on the adjuster screw of the rocker, see if it then has clearance. If it does, then the tappet is just a little stiff, it will free up with running and warm-up of the engine.

With all the covers off squirt the inside with a 50-50 mix of acetone and after-run oil, the acetone to soften any gummed oil and the oil itself to ensure nothing gets washed dry. Doing this in the cylinders and crankcase will clean and lubricate everything except the cam and followers, and the front bearing.

If you want to worry about the cams you should get new gaskets for the cam boxes for reassembly; the gear mesh is set by the thickness of the gasket.

It's easier (and safer) to hold the engine with the crankshaft pointing down, fill the crankcase with your acetone/oil mix and let it stand overnight. Enough oil will seep through to give the front end fresh lube. The old oil wont be washed out, but there will be some fresh, and the acetone will tend to free up the remaining old oil.

You should adjust the valves before trying to run the engine. Or at least check them.

As you turn the crank you'll note a slight change in its feel when the pistons reach top dead center and bottom dead center. While turning the crank, watch the rockers in one cylinder head. As the crank turns in normal rotation you'll see first the exhaust rocker open its valve, then as the exhaust closes you'll see the inlet start to open. This point of overlap, with both valves open, is TDC between the exhaust and inlet strokes. Turn the crank exactly one full turn, you will be at TDC again, but this time between the compression and power strokes. This is a good position for valve adjustment.

To set the clearance you can use a feeler strip, but there's an easier way.

Loosen the lock nut and spin the adjuster screw, make sure it's free. Now turn it in until you open the valve just a little, back it out and turn it in again. You'll be able to feel when it just comes up snug. Set the screw exactly to that zero clearance point, and holding the screw, tighten the lock nut. There will be enough stretch in the screw and rocker threads that the tension of the lock nut will give you approximately 0.0005" clearance. This is plenty, the clearance opens as the engine warms. Do the other valve on the same head, then find the C/P tdc point for the other cylinder and do the valves on it.

On a single cylinder engine slight valve lash errors wont be noticed, but a twin is more critical. An error in one valve can make the two cylinders have noticeable difference in power, get then as close as you can. I've found my pet method gives more consistent settings, and also compensates for any uneven wear on rocker and valve stem tips.

when you have everything free and adjusted, put it all back together and enjoy the engine.

Gaskets? Unless you pulled a cam you've not disturbed any critical ones, if they look OK just reuse them. You should have a supply of rocker cover gaskets, though, you are going to be pulling them regularly.

There's not a lot of routine maintenance on these engines. Before every flying session I pull the rocker covers and douse the valve gear with oil, giving the rockers a quick wiggle check for clearance, and pump a slug of oil into the crankcase through the vent port. After the day's flying do the standard oil through the intake bit, and another slug in the crankcase. I pull the rocker covers at the start of the session (usually before leaving the house) but not after.

The glow plugs. Use OS type "F" in the rear holes, almost any plug will work in the front, so long as they are matched. For starting you only need to heat the rears.

No, I've not said anything about the fuel system. Just be sure all the ports are open, once it's started the fuel flow will tend to wash any gum out of them.

And If I've scared you enough, just send me the engine. I can make use of it. Haw.

Bill.
I have a used saito 270. The valves on the left side are open in reverse order. The intake is opening on the up stroke instead of the exhaust. How could the cam lobes be installed backwards? Any advice? Thx
Old 12-16-2020, 03:08 AM
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There is quite a difference between the right and left cams. Here is a review by Clarence Lee: Saito FA-270T




The left cam has a hash mark for timing, I don't know why this one also has the arrow.

Last edited by Hobbsy; 12-16-2020 at 05:41 AM. Reason: Add picture
Old 12-16-2020, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by davehansen View Post
I have a used saito 270. The valves on the left side are open in reverse order. The intake is opening on the up stroke instead of the exhaust. How could the cam lobes be installed backwards? Any advice? Thx

You don't want the left cam on the right hand cylinder. (For the reason you noted)

The problem is, most folks get a cam off by 180 degrees. I have personally corrected that error three times.

Last edited by Jesse Open; 12-16-2020 at 08:16 AM.
Old 12-18-2020, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Jesse Open View Post
You don't want the left cam on the right hand cylinder. (For the reason you noted)

The problem is, most folks get a cam off by 180 degrees. I have personally corrected that error three times.
seems I have 2 right side cams and no left. Is the pin holding them
in removable? Thx for reply
Old 12-18-2020, 12:03 PM
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You have a left and right shown inthe pic. Yes, the cam pivot pins are retained by a setscrew. I see no need to remove them however.

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