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Sanye AP 09 RC

Old 08-27-2018, 08:31 PM
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GallopingGhostler
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Default Sanye AP 09 RC

Got this one for a song, surprised that no one else bid with me on it. Was frozen by dried Castor, but a little gentle persuasion after oiling with 5-30W motor oil, got the crank and carb barrel freed, now turns freely. Missing the needle ratchet, but I plan to fix that with fuel line and wire tie to provide needle resistance. A little Mothers Mag & Aluminum Polish cleaned up the scratches on the bare machined aluminum surfaces. It is used but not abused.

Old 08-28-2018, 09:51 AM
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aspeed
 
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Ya those APs are quite the best kept secret. I don't know why anyone buys the old Cox stuff when the ASP stuff is so much better and up to date. Unscrew the stinger on the muffler to get a bit more power. It makes a bigger difference on the AP .15 than the .09, but is still worthwhile. Electric stuff has taken over the little glow motor market, I still like them. making one to fit in an F2D combat wing right now with the .15 size AP.
Old 08-28-2018, 04:05 PM
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GallopingGhostler
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Originally Posted by aspeed View Post
Ya those APs are quite the best kept secret. I don't know why anyone buys the old Cox stuff when the ASP stuff is so much better and up to date. Unscrew the stinger on the muffler to get a bit more power. It makes a bigger difference on the AP .15 than the .09, but is still worthwhile. Electric stuff has taken over the little glow motor market, I still like them. making one to fit in an F2D combat wing right now with the .15 size AP.
The Cox's forte is their lighter weight and just like any engine, if engine is matched to the airframe with the right weight, wing area and aerodynamics, one will have very successful flights.

I was disappointed with the AP .09 was discontinued. For some odd reason I had a pension for the .09 over the .15. Although slightly heavier due to thicker brass cylinder liner to make up for the smaller bore, I thought that its diminutive muffler would work better on the .09 than the .15, which you have alluded to. I don't know how much of an advantage the ball bearings make on such a small engine. Seems more dramatic on larger engines.

I've got the right motor mount for it, the longer Hayes .15 with bottom web between the rails. I'll remove one of the muffler spacing washers so it can be pointed to the side instead.
Old 08-28-2018, 04:11 PM
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GallopingGhostler
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I just wanted to add that I saw the Sceptre Flight engine review on the AP .15. It's displacement is not really a .15 but a .14. Impression I got from the HP curve and writer's assessment is that the engine's power is about equivalent to the old better cross scavenged engines, like my Enya .15-III TV. The small chambered muffler doesn't allow enough gas expansion plus the small exit outlet robs the .15 of power. Since it is also heavier than the Enya, there wasn't as much incentive to go for it. Now, even the .15 has been relegated to out of stock status (basically no longer marketed).
Old 08-28-2018, 06:28 PM
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I have 3 each of the .09 and .15. I found the .09 without a muffler to be slightly more powerful than a TD .09, and equal to the OS .10 motors LA, FP and the earlier one. which are all quite similar oddly enough. The AP .15 is really about .135 cu in. huge bore, and same stroke as the .09. 15.5 and 12mm IIRC. I found the .09 takes the revs better than the .15 which i limit to around 21,000 rpm. The .09 has a lighter piston which doesn't oval the rod bushing at thigh revs. The .15 is quite light for a .15, around the same as a Fora, of course with less power. Too bad they are not sold any more. Maybe someone carries them? Just Engines, or someone in China. It is quite difficult to keep tolerances on piston/cyl. for a $40 motor, and give a warranty. I just hope they keep going, especially the ASP blue head .15. It is a real powerhouse with very little mods. Just a turbo plug conversion.
Old 09-03-2018, 06:22 AM
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When I saw their performance some ten years ago I totally lost interest. The AP 09 seem to be at least 1500rpm below other regular .10 engines on a 7x4 prop...
Does the carb have any low end adjustment?

Here is a video from NoNofulton active on RCU (1/2A forum) at the time;


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceP0OTrcbZw[/youtube]
Old 09-03-2018, 07:10 AM
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I did all my tests with no muffler to be fair to all the TD tests, as they were seldom muffled at the time. My examples were slightly better than the TD and about equal to the OS examples. The muffler on the AP is a big mistake, especially when used on the .15 AP. I opened up the hole and made a new stinger with a 6mm hole and it performs well. I picked 6mm because that is what the F2D uses now. They used 8mm before to give an idea of how small the stinger really is stock at around 4mm. I found most smaller motors that have a throttle are more of a shutoff than a throttle. I got about a 7,000 rpm idleand it was not reliable on that one. I got another couple .09s that idle more consistantly. The video is using 25% oil and the poor muffler. I was getting 16,900 with 10% nitro on a 7-4 Master Airscrew unmuffled., 15,200 muffled (likely opened up to 6mm) and 12,800 with a 7-5. After playing with the head a little bit I ended up with 18,200 rpm using a turbo plug on the 7-4 MA. The same prop on the AP .15 gave me 21,400 rpm unmuffled. Just to compare with the OS LA .10. I got 17,500 unmuffled, 16,200 muffled and 17,000 with an opened muffler baffle and outlet. Just to add more confusion, I made a head for the LA .10 and got about 18,100 with no muffler. The LA had quite a large shim in it, and I made a thinner one to give about .010" headspace with the tests. The OS is pretty well refined even with the stock plug style head. It should be noted that we pay over $100 for them here.at a hobby shop if you can even get them.I spent a lot of time on the AP mods just because it seemed like a fun thing to do, and a mistake was not a big deal with the price being so low.
Old 09-03-2018, 07:45 AM
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Some pics in case some have not seen them before. The one shows the bigger stinger and it also has the next bigger size drill right at the exhaust port. There is a 10mm x 1mm threaded outlet that I made to use a pipe, or mousse can. At some point I though of raising the exhaust port to 180 degrees to make a pipe work well, but really it seems like something for the future. My .15 AP rod did not seem to like the revs at 25,000 rpms which is where the pipes like to run. I would like to note that it was running at 24,500 on an F2D prop which is really "only" 5,000 rpm less than a $250 Fora.

The middle part is the header for a pipe. The left part is the stinger with the larger hole. It is easier to just remove the stinger and drill a 6mm hole. If your field allows it, no muffler is better yet.


Control line venturi and needle valve on the .15. A bit over 5mm bore. It needs muffler pressure or bladder feed.


The .09 sleeve. The .15 sleeve has the the bypass slots cut all the way through to the piston, which is a much bigger diameter.
Old 09-03-2018, 08:08 AM
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GallopingGhostler
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Originally Posted by Mr Cox View Post
When I saw their performance some ten years ago I totally lost interest. The AP 09 seem to be at least 1500rpm below other regular .10 engines on a 7x4 prop... Does the carb have any low end adjustment? Here is a video from NoNofulton active on RCU (1/2A forum) at the time;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceP0OTrcbZw
Compared with the OS Max 10 FSR (reference Peter Chinn's May 1983 Aeromodeller OS .10 FSR R/C engine test, OS Max 10 FSR, it obtained about the same RPM's on a 7x4. I gather that the OS Max .10 FSR, FP and LA are more or less on par with each other. Perhaps on your hotter .09's - .10's there may be a difference, but results seem to so the engine is sufficiently powerful for a sport engine. As shown by others, the engine can be made to shine when used with a less restrictive muffler like a Saito 4 stroke. Also, the .10's are slightly greater in displacement versus this .09.

Considering that the engine retailed for less than half the price of others, and has successfully powered various sport aircraft, as I have observed previously, match an engine with the right airframe and it will perform satisfactorily. Any engine will suck if poorly match to an airframe. Each flier has their preferences for engines and will gravitate toward certain ones as favorites over others.

I could be wrong, but I gather that a good thing about this engine is it is a continuation of the Sanye line and not merely a copy or re-licensing of another's engines. A better muffler design would have had a better performing engine, but then economics were considered. The muffler is compact and seems well suited to use in either an RC or CL profile design fuselage mounted "pancake".
Old 09-03-2018, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by aspeed View Post
Some pics in case some have not seen them before. The one shows the bigger stinger and it also has the next bigger size drill right at the exhaust port. There is a 10mm x 1mm threaded outlet that I made to use a pipe, or mousse can. At some point I though of raising the exhaust port to 180 degrees to make a pipe work well, but really it seems like something for the future. My .15 AP rod did not seem to like the revs at 25,000 rpms which is where the pipes like to run. I would like to note that it was running at 24,500 on an F2D prop which is really "only" 5,000 rpm less than a $250 Fora. The .09 sleeve. The .15 sleeve has the the bypass slots cut all the way through to the piston, which is a much bigger diameter.
Thanks, aspeed for your observations, photos and tests. I gather that as you and Amp Abuser revealed, the AP .15 may be better suited on a less restrictive Saito 4 stroke header and muffler, which would allow the .135 displacement engine shine but keep it below RPM's where the rod begins to suffer from plastic deformation. (Plastic deformation is the region where the stresses have exceeded the aluminum's elastic strength and permanent deformation occurs.) This is not bad for an engine that is slightly smaller than your .15's but performs well for its compact size. The Andrew Coholic November 2016 Aeromodeller engine review article, AP 15 Yellow Jacket makes mention of the engine being comparable to the (latest) cross scavenge engines in power.

Considering the engine's diminutive displacement and restrictive muffler, I still think the engine of worthy consideration when as configured is mated to the right airframe. It's merit of course was cost. One thing I have noted about these engines is that the factory's instructions recommend using adequate Castor oil fuels, which rules out using modern RC fuels with less than 20% oil and half that as Castor.
Old 09-03-2018, 10:06 AM
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I normally use 50-50 castor synth. but don't really see why this motor would need it, being true ABC and Ball Bearings. Maybe because of the bushed rod material? or just to be on the safe side I guess.
Old 09-03-2018, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by aspeed View Post
I normally use 50-50 castor synth. but don't really see why this motor would need it, being true ABC and Ball Bearings. Maybe because of the bushed rod material? or just to be on the safe side I guess.
It would be of importance for the unbushed conrod in the .09 that was changed by adding in the .15. If one were to bore out the hole and press in a bronze or brass bushing in each conrod end, then may be able to use standard RC fuel with the .09. Of course, Castor such as your 50-50% mix with 20% total oil would provide protection against a lean run, certainly can't hurt. Instructions mentions Castor drawing heat away through the exhaust helping engine to run cooler. Given the restrictive muffler would cause the engine to run hotter than a free flowing one. Instructions also contain a warning of not running the engine in an overly lean condition, should be set slightly rich.

Last edited by GallopingGhostler; 09-03-2018 at 10:33 AM.
Old 09-03-2018, 10:35 AM
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From Sayne there is also the ASP .12 and the Blue head .15XLS, these are much better to start with and also cheap enough to play around with. On top of that they also have very good twin needle carbs. My best ASP .12 engine will do about 17200 rpm on the APC 7x4 prop, using its stock carb and muffler, as an example. That is without any major mods, I just raised the liner a little and filled the front of the crank opening with JB weld. I have run the ASP .12 on only synthetic for several years now without any problems, I think the rod is bushed but I can't remember for sure.

The OS .10FP will do about 16500rpm on the APC 7x4 prop without any muffler while the quiet stock muffler (with a baffle) reduces that to about 15800rpm. It will also idle well at around 5000rpm (adjustable air-bleed carb). I don't think that I have made any video of it using the 7x4 prop, but below is a short example (no flight) of it on an APC 7x5 prop, stock muffler and 10% nitro fuel. This is a rich flight setting which gives around 14100rpm (about 400rpm off peak). The engine is really quiet around half throttle and below and also has a great throttle respons. The baffle in the muffler gives a very good pressure to the fuel tank and one can actually hold the plane with the noise straight up with the engine at idle without any problems.


Last edited by Mr Cox; 09-03-2018 at 10:40 AM.
Old 09-03-2018, 10:55 AM
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I have an FP .10 that I intended to copy what ďhopesoĒ did on YouTube by putting a Duratraxx ABC piston and cylinder for an O.S. .15 car engine into the FP .10. IIRC minor mods were needed to get it to fit, but it provided a boost in power. I have the engine and P/L, so once I get the engine together, Iíll have to have someone make a diesel head to fit it. Itís going into a small 1/2a ARF trainer.

Iím sure someone would want the OEM piston and liner. They only have about 15 minutes total runtime on them.
Old 10-11-2018, 06:33 PM
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1QwkSport2.5r, did you modify your OS .10 FP with the Duratrax car engine P/L yet? Followed Brad from Texas suggestion, I bought a curved 10mm header and muffler for a Saito 4 cycle, Saito AP SAI7274CL.


AP SAI7274CL mounted to the Sanye AP .09 R/C

This should overcome problems with the more restrictive OEM muffler.
Old 10-12-2018, 04:44 AM
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No I haven’t. I’ve been swamped at work and at home. I still have to pull the FP it of my trainer and pull it apart to see what needs to be done to fit it all together. When I get around to it, I will post about it. Hopefully life will slow down a little bit and I’ll get some time to work on it.
Old 10-12-2018, 08:56 PM
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No rush, 1QwkSport2.5r, BTDT, have my share of back burner projects. Thought though the idea you proposed sounds interesting, we don't hear of too many mods on these small OS FP's these days. When you get around to finally doing it, would like to see how it worked out for you. Cheers.
Old 10-13-2018, 04:39 AM
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From OS there are better car engines to work with I think than the .10FP if one want to to push the limits. A true ABC liner would be great to have though.
When I have compared the liner outer diameter to other engines I did not find a match. The OS used fractional mm I think while most others are not (will have to check my notes on that though). One could then use a lathe to change the liner or a drill press to change the crankcase, but either operation is a little risky.

The OS .12CV for instance is promising and easy to convert (but still ABN). I guess the crank and crankcase are the same as they used on their .15CV but their are hard to find these days.
Here is a short bench run of a .12CV that I have "converted" by making a Turbo plug head, in a button and camp style. The carb is the stock one and the engine is on pair with the ASP .15XLS on an APC 7x4 prop. Unfortunately the total weights are rather similar too though...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqzVLakeXPs

Last edited by Mr Cox; 10-13-2018 at 04:45 AM.
Old 10-13-2018, 04:58 AM
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I am gonna use the Duratrax car piston/liner in the 10FP to use in my trainer plane, not a car. Duratrax made replacement true ABC piston and liner sets for many OS car engines which likely used the same parts the airplane engines used.
Old 10-13-2018, 10:44 AM
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Okey, I didn't know that there were dedicated liner replacements for the .10FP, that would just be a simply direct drop-in then.

AndyW AKA Hopeso was doing lots mods to many different engines, and would modify both crankcases and liners in order to increase the cylinder volume with very little increase in engine weights.
Old 10-13-2018, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Cox View Post
Okey, I didn't know that there were dedicated liner replacements for the .10FP, that would just be a simply direct drop-in then.

AndyW AKA Hopeso was doing lots mods to many different engines, and would modify both crankcases and liners in order to increase the cylinder volume with very little increase in engine weights.
AFAIK there was never a .10 car engine, but even if there was, the piston and liner set I have is for an OS .15. Itís the same set that hopeso used in his 10FP mod engine. Iím basically going to do something similar.
Old 10-13-2018, 10:38 PM
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I only use airplanes myself, but I'm pretty sure the .10FP came in both car and boat configurations too.
A .15 liner seams like an easy way to get a power boost, and that might make it something around .12 in size, I guess.
Old 10-14-2018, 01:34 AM
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Yep. And it gets rid of that dreaded pesky nickel too.

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