Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

Well d**mit. Three weeks of carefully putting together my H9 P51 and the Saito 100 completely seizes after the first 1 minute of it's short life.

I went exactly by the book. filled it up with 15% Cool Power. Opened the high speed needle five turns. Flip started it . Ran great but died when I took off the starter. Put the starter back on and flipped again. Cranked right up and ran it at a fast idle. It was running plenty rich and was blowing a good fog from the exaust. After about a minute it clanked, screeched and siezed up. I couldn't turn it over at all. I let it sit awhile with the glow plug removed and I could turn it over but it has a catch or rough spot about 90 deg. before compression. It also makes a rattling noise. I didn't try to start it again. To make things worse a little fuel leaked onto the top of the cowling and it ate the paint right off! I would have expected H9 to at least use fuel proof paint on the cowling.

All in all a Very dissappointing day.

LuvBipes

My Feedback: (4)

Sorry to hear about your misfortune, but Horizon at least has good customer service. Pack the engine up and just send it back to them w/ a note explaining what happened. I had a similar problem (w/ an out of warrantee 91) and they fixed it free of charge.

jack01

My Feedback: (3)

It sounds like your bearing went. I saw a Saito 130 twin loose the main bearing once, and it did the same thing yours did. His bearing completely came apart. I've had nothing but good experiences with Saito's but every now and then you'll get a bad one. Sorry about your engine!

Dazzler

My Feedback: (6)

I had the exact same problem with my Saito 100, it was done by the book on the test stand and engine seized up after about a minute. I took off the back plate and noticed the connecting rod had broken. I packed it up, and 2 weeks later(ouch) I had it back, its been running fine ever since. They fixed it under warranty, just make sure you have your reciept, if you dont have it go back to where you bought it to get a duplicate reciept, as this work is expensive if you have to pay for it. Good luck, Daz...

Flymyplane

My Feedback: (24)

I know a guy who had seize problems with a new saito 1.8 Kept sending it in, kept getting it back and it kept seizing! This was a brand new engine! I think he came to the conclusion that it seized whenever he mounted it inverted! After the last fix, he kept it a 90 degree mounting, and I dont think he had much more problems. The problem was though he bought the engine and for an airplane that he needed an inverted install!! So, he ended up switching out to another engine and never used the $400 Saito! Ouch!

MOPAR

My Feedback: (7)

sorry to hear that. know how it is when u want to get flying and have to wait. any how. ive had all saitos. one ys. wich i love. like the saitos. 2 .72s 2 180s and 1 100. i just ran my 100 on the bench today. all this had me worried. i did put after run oil in the jug. and in the crank. tilted it to let it run to the bearing. i pre oil all my engines before start up. im a mechanic. [sucks what a life] just like a big engine on any thing else. it fired and i ran 1/2 tank of fuel thru it. ran great. like a saito should. just let it idle. and a bit above idle. moving the throttle slowly up and down. it helps them seat in. it puts a different load on the engine. when its going up and down. like my motrocycle race engines. any how it sucks to hear that. and im glad mine ran good. i was worried. i run my screw at about 4 turns out. when first started. ive seen some gys hydrolock there engines running them so rich. somehow they get tons of fuel in it. and wammo. hydrolock. and its nasty. i hope they take care of u. i was digging up my reciept just in case. better luck to come. it happens no matter what sport or hobby were in. [lose a valve in a yamaha r6 during a 6 hour endurance race. when ure team is winning. and theres only 1 hour left. talk about suckkkkkkk, cya

Ed_Moorman

My Feedback: (1)

I don't have a 100, but I do have a fine running .72. I broke it in sloppy rich on the bench for 3 tanks, then started slowly leaning it out over a gallon of fuel. It now has compression like an ABC engine.

You might want to run some fuel that contains castor, like Omega, for break-in. The all synthetic Cool Power might not let the rings seat as quickly or as well as a castor blend.

bdrannik

Finally had to comment on this one.. I see one thing missing almost consistently when people list their "first start" sequence. Page four of the FA-100 manual states quite clearly to: "Apply a few drops of light oil thru the crankcase breather nipple and down the pushrod tubes to ensure proper lubrication for the first run". I have yet to see anyone with a "seized Saito on the first run" have it listed that they removed the valve covers and put some oil down the pushrod tubes. There are about a dozen FA-100's in our club, all have done this pre-lube (I was present for first run as I'm the one that convinced most of them to get an FA-100) and so far not one of the FA-100's have had any troubles at all. It takes less than a minute to remove the valve covers and pre-lube the engine for the first run, isn't it worth doing to not have the engine doing a run? Just my .02 cents worth...

MOPAR

My Feedback: (7)

i agree. thats what i said. i pre lube all my engines and i have not had one problem. anything can happen. but its good insurance to prelube them engines. cya glad to see someone agreed.

Dazzler

My Feedback: (6)

Ok Ok I was one of the guys who's Saito 100 seized up, and no I didnt pre lube it (I know your smiling now with an "I told you so") but hey I know now, I will prelube all my engines now. Daz...

bdrannik

Howdy Daz,

Not so much of an "I told you so" as it is a "Something to consider once the engine comes back from being repaired"..

I think a lot of people just put in the fuel and fire them up.. I know I used to do it that way.. Just wanted to point something out that may help save a few engines.. Not Saitos in particular, but any brand..
Brent

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

quote: Finally had to comment on this one.. I see one thing missing almost consistently when people list their "first start" sequence. Page four of the FA-100 manual states quite clearly to: "Apply a few drops of light oil thru the crankcase breather nipple and down the pushrod tubes to ensure proper lubrication for the first run". I have yet to see anyone with a "seized Saito on the first run" have it listed that they removed the valve covers and put some oil down the pushrod tubes.

If you are going to "quote" something please do so accuratley and don't edit to make your point, which is a good one.

The EXACT quote is " NOTE: Because your engine may have been sitting for an extended period of time prior to running it, a few drops of light oil applied through the crankcase breather nipple........"

This is a side note preceding the numbered 5 step break in procedure.
Quote " Regardless of the mouting method chosen for break-in, the following procedures are applicable:" Then come the five steps.

Yes this could have prevented my Saito from seizing but it seems that after a minute of running it should have had all the lubricaton it needed. Why would it run so good for that long and then suddenly seize. The engine was not hot . It was not lean.
The engine was inverted and spitting fuel. If it was not lubricated by then it never was going to be lubricated.

If I had to guess, and I don't because that's why God made warranties, I would guess that the problem lies in step 4 which instructs you to open the high speed needle 5 turns. This caught my eye but I did it as recommended. The poor thing probably hydro locked, bent stuff and died a horrible death.


:drowning:

bdrannik

>If you are going to "quote" something please do so
>accuratley and don't edit to make your point, which
>is a good one. The EXACT quote is " NOTE: Because
>your engine may have been sitting for an extended
>period of time prior to running it, a few drops of light
>oil applied through the crankcase breather nipple........"

Since Robotech seems to think that I edited my quote to help make my point, I'll quote the entire related paragraph word for word so that the people who do not have access to an FA-100 manual can see the difference. I edited to save some space. BTW, for some reason Robotech seemed to take my post defensively.. Not sure why as it wasn't directed at him in any way. Only made the post because I've heard of 3 seized engines this week on first run, two Saitos and one other brand and was hoping to possibly save someone's new engine. So, to make Robotech happy, here is the exact quote from the Saito manual.. (Others please judge for yourself if you think my editing was in order to make my point) The spelling errors in the quote are correctly quoted.

Saito FA-100 Manual, page four, under "Break-In":
"Note: Because your engine may have been siting for an extended period of time prior to running it, a few drops of light oil applied through the crankcase breather nipple (19 on the exploded view) and down the push-rod tubes (40) will ensure proper lubrication for the first run."

>accuratley and don't edit to make your point, which
>is a good one.

Thank you. BTW, if you check your "EXACT" quote, you will find that yours is edited also.. (sitting) Hehehe.. Couldn't resist..
Looks like a DP Ultimate near your name? Sharp looking plane, hope to have one in the future along with a H9 P51.. Don't have anough pennies saved yet though..

Have a good day,

Brent

bdrannik

****
From Robotech:
Yes this could have prevented my Saito from seizing but it seems that after a minute of running it should have had all the lubricaton it needed. Why would it run so good for that long and then suddenly seize. The engine was not hot . It was not lean.
The engine was inverted and spitting fuel. If it was not lubricated by then it never was going to be lubricated.

If I had to guess, and I don't because that's why God made warranties, I would guess that the problem lies in step 4 which instructs you to open the high speed needle 5 turns. This caught my eye but I did it as recommended. The poor thing probably hydro locked, bent stuff and died a horrible death.
****

Your hydo lock theory would have to be near the top of the list of what might have happened to your engine I think. Difficult to imagine a cylinder that wet being able to grab the piston hard enough to break the rod.. (I made the mistake of running up the engine at 5 turns out with the exhaust pointing at my car.. grr.. Does spit out a nasty fog at 5 turns) None of my Saitos are inverted, but have read in the forums that hydro lock can be a problem inverted.. Has me worried as I'm in the process of mounting my first inverted FA-100 in a Goldberg Decathlon..
I don't want to be joining the seized engine group next week..

MOPAR

My Feedback: (7)

as long as the fuel tank is below the carb. it should not hydro lock. u can always turn it by hand. no heat hooked of course. and see if it turns easy. ive had some of my four strokes inverted. like a saito 72 in my aresti. i modified the aresti a little to get my tank lower. than the carb that is. but when ur putting fuel in the tank somtimes ull see it run out the carb. so to stop this. i just close my needle. fuel it. then open where i had it. and no more problem. it has never attempted to hydro lock. and runs great. real real great. but somtimes if u leave that needle open. thats a different story. so i just close the needle. it does not take that long. i could not get the tank low enough. so when its completely full, the fuel level is just a bit over the carb. works for me. take care. and if u live in ohio. pray for no more rain. i want to fly darn it. im tired of putting planes together. i want to fly them now

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

bdrannik: Didn't take it personally. Just making a point about quoting and yes I did slip and spell "sitting" correctly.

I don't know and probably will never know what happened to the 100. I take care in breaking in my engines and this one got me.

Called Horizon Monday. Stayed on hold for 10 or 15 minutes (toll call) and was told I get a call back. Never Happened. Email tech support about the Saito and the P51 cowl (not fuel proof!). No response. Called the LHS where I bought it and he said bring the engine in and I could get another 100 if I wanted to wait until next week (back ordered) or get a Saito .91 and some change. I'm kinda leaning towards blowing off the whole 4 stroke thing and getting an OS .91FX. I've got two of them and you can bet a paycheck they'll start on the first flip and run all day.

God bless the LHS!

MOPAR

My Feedback: (7)

has anyone noticed. the fuel tank is higher than the carb. i just got mine almost done tonight. when i got the engine mounted and then the tank. the tank is a little higher than the carb. if full of fuel. and i dont see a way to get the tank lower. no room cause of wings. so with the engine inverted. and the tank a little on the high side. i can see a hydrolock waiting to happen. all i can think to do is like the aresti. and close the needle while fueling. and maybe suck a little extra fuel out. i put a 18 oz. tank in it. man its one nice looking plane. any how just wondered if anyone else noticed this. ud think when they desinged it. and planned on a saito 100 inverted. they could have come up with a way to get the tank lower. could probably use a small one and mount in front of the wings. but it would have to be really small. that would stink. couldnt fly long. cya l8tr bill

Dazzler

My Feedback: (6)

Robotech, take the 100 back to your LHS, and wait the week to get the new one, it will be very well worth it. The 100 is a great little engine once you get the sucker right. I know its a pain in the but to wait a week during flying season, but you wont regret it. Just my .02 cents. Daz...

tmproff

My Feedback: (5)

I agree with dazzler about the Saito 100, it's a wonderful engine, almost the same size as the .91, and more power. I also was reading where you said that the engine was rattling. Mine rattles as well, and it worried me in the beginning. Someone finally told me that it is normal. Mine runs great, you will not be dissapointed.

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

Picked up my new Saito 100 at the LHS yesterday. It was tough waiting but I think it'll be worth it. Ran 2 tanks through it last evening after opening the valve covers and oiling everything. I put some oil in the weep hole in the front and through the crank vent nipple in the back.

The owner of the LHS opened the old one up and the con-rod was bent at the bottom and cracked in the middle.

I started at 5 turns out on HS needle and on the second tank leaned it a bit. At 5 turns out the head never got over barely warm in fact the valve covers had condensation on them. Seems like you would want the engine to warm up some since it is a AAC and not ringed. On the second tank I ended up at 2 turns out and it would fast idle without the glow starter. Blipped the throttle a couple of times and it came to life immediatly. VERY quick response.

I plan to fly the H9 P51 this weekend. From what I've read from others with this combo it will be awesome.

BTW: I emailed horizon about the 100 and the cowl on the P51. Got an automated response several days later. Called them twice and was promised a call back twice. After two weeks ...nothing.

I've never ordered directly from them prefering to support my LHS and if this is how they handle warranty support I don't think I will ever order direct. My LHS being a dealer had the pull to be able to call them and tell them he was sending it back and to send him another.

tmproff

My Feedback: (5)

Well I just ordered the Seduction Freestyle from Singapore Hobbies. I think my Saito 100 is going to have to wait a month for me to buy it. Good luck on yours!

MOPAR

My Feedback: (7)

everyone at the field loves my 51. i cant explain how it flys. its wonderful. i fly aerobatic planes. but this plane is so stable. and will fly so slow. it floats off the runway when u think it would never do it. so slowl. they huttled around me. my wife who got it for my birthday was there. u can imagine. i was nervous. did not want anything to go wrong. and it went great. including the landing. i love this plane. its like it has power stearing. it flys so well. and i would not put anything smaller than my 100 in it. ive been running 15 cool power. was going to run 30 cool pwr heli in it like all my other saitos. but it runs so well. and has plenty of power. im sticking with 15. it is one butiful plane. put it together by the book cg and all. did go over all the glue joints with 30 min. and alcohol. CYA!!!!! any how its great and u could never go wrong with this plane. ill love this plane for as long as it lasts. and if it ever goes. there will be another to replace it. have fun flying them. they fly as good as they look.

LuvBipes

My Feedback: (4)

FYI, though most recent Saitos feature AAC construction, they STILL HAVE a ring and, therefore should be broken in at a rich setting. don't confuse AAC with ringless ABC or ABN.

hawkco66

LubBipes has it right. Years ago I made the same mistake. Check the manual...I personally have never seen, at least knowingly, a 4 stroke without a ring.... YS, OS, Saito, magnum, Thunder tiger, ASP, Enya, etc...

hawk