rcflyrc

My Feedback: (1)

When exactly did OS change over to Nickel Plating instead of Chrome Plating?
and the year they changed over?

Do all O.S. FSR ABC engines have true chrome plated sleeves?

And is there any way you can deternine if you have Chrome plating or Nickel plating with some type of test with out running or damaging the engine?

I was told the SF (or RF) ABC engines are when they changed to Nickel.

jaka

Hello!
I think it was when they introduced the SF line of ballbearinged engines...sometime in the early eighties.
Sorry! But I'm curious...why do you want to know that??
The OS engines are as good now as they were then...or better...so who cares what they are made of as long as they are good?!

Regards!
Jan K
Sweden

rcflyrc

My Feedback: (1)

Because I own both the OS FSR ABC engine and the OS SF ABC engine and I wanted to know what is true ABC and what isn't.

I guese if OS did tell the truth about ABC when they first came out with it... The FSR ABC must be true Chrome plated.

I heard they got into a little trouble when they put out the SF ABC engines...
when it should of said on the box: ABN

I am not sure about the FSR ABC engines and would like to be 100% sure.

I wish there was a test you could do... but I guese you would have to be a chemist with testing equipment to determine if the plating is Nickel or Chrome.

Pilotsmoe

You can tell by the color of the liner. If the liner is a brownish color, you got a nickel liner. If it looks bright and silver, you got a chrome liner. Some of the early SF's were chrome.

Motorboy

See in exhaustport, can you see brass sleeve and inside light silver colored, it is true ABC.

Jens Eirik

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

On true chrome engines, the edges of the ports are brass. On ABN engines, the port edges are plated.

Enjoy,

Jim

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

OK Folks:

Just to clarify, at this time OS in not making ANY ABC engines.

All OS engines without ringed pistons, are ABN even though they said ABL for a while, now they mostly say "Non-Ringed."

All the four stroke engines, except the FL-70, are ringed pistons running in a plain steel liner.

Their Heli engines are the last hold out for OS two stroke ringed engines, they have already changed some of them to ABN, the 32 SH for one.

When their prices are so much higher than similar engines with true chromed liners from other makers I can not accept ABN as a means of holding their prices down. I'm afraid I see it as only a method of increasing their profit margin, quality be damned.

Bill.

jessiej

While there are those who disagree, most who have experience with both feel strongly that chrome is superior to nickle. It might be noted that in many military fire arms, subject to extreme conditions, bores and chambers are plated with chrome, not nickle.

jess

Bax

My Feedback: (11)

The O.S. Max high-performance racing engines for R/C cars, boats, and ducted-fan applications have true chrome plating in the cylinders. With normal care and operation, O.S. has been having no difficulties with the ABL construction of their other non-ringed engines.

Heli engines are ringed because they tend to operate for long periods in the midrange. This makes non-ringed construction problematic.

For the majority of their engines, O.S. went away from chrome plating about two decades ago, after the FSR-series was discontinued. Environmental regulations forced the change. That's why the ABC piston/liner set for the .46 racing marine engine is nearly twice the cost of the piston/liner set for the .46 AX engine.

yard-dart

My Feedback: (35)

Environmental regulations forced the change.

Then why is it that other manufacturers are still producing ABC engines without any noticeable problems from environmentalists? If one particular company has caught the heat, surely all would, don't you think? I think it's just that OS is trying to cut the cost of producing their engines, while maintaining their higher retail prices. Somebody is getting filthy rich!

submikester

My Feedback: (6)

The environmental requirements of Japan and China are not the same. China allows more dangerous conditions that Japan does not (waste). It's pretty simple really.

The fact is though that while chrome is harder than nickle - nickle is still a very valid substitute and the problems that OS had were not due to substance quality but manufacturing process. The plating process they used was flawed - nickle is a very good lining material to use and it is used in many full sized engines over chrome. BMW uses it, Jaguar uses it and Porsche also uses it. BMW and Jag have both had problems with their plating process in the past. Nickle is a very slick material and when made into an allow with silicon and aluminium (nikasil) it is very hard and slick.

On the other hand - I don't see the reason to pay the price for OS engines when their quality of manufacture has been in question for some time now. I've had FSRs, FPs, and some of the engines from the mid 90's but nothing new because for the price I'm not willing to take the risk. IT's easier to take a risk on a chinese engine for $80 than to take the same risk on an OS for $150. MAgnum makes some nice engines and I've been using them since the mid 90's with few issues. Honestly I wish there was a lower cost AMERICAN engine manufacturer that I could buy from. I've had a few foxes and they while they were great engines they needed low nitro fuel and my other engines liked higher nitro fuel. Hauling more than one can of gas around is a pain. Fox doesn't make 4-strokes either which are what I have been flying now. All of the other american engines I know of are high performance (not sport) and high priced. It's a bummer - The chinese engines are very nice but I wish I could find something similar made elsewhere.

jessiej

All of the other american engines I know of are high performance (not sport) and high priced.

Have you checked out K&B?

jess

ChuckN

This chrome vs nickel thing will never die
Every so often I like to check in and see what the latest discussion is. For those that aren't sure what the difference in appearance is between ABC and ABN I have some good photos on my website:

http://sparkysbarn.com/motodynamo/chromenickel.htm

Hard chrome plating truly is an environmental concern among developed countries. Last October in the US OSHA proposed a new standard for occupational exposure to hexavalent chromium, one which seeks to lower the permissible exposure limit (PEL) from 52 ug/m3 to 1 ug/m3 as an eight-hour time weighted average. This is 1/50th the current standard! This will heavily impact the industries in this country which perform decorative chrome plating, hard chrome plating, chromating processes and anodizing. Many folks say the limit will be impossible to meet. Here's a link to the article:
http://www.pfonline.com/articles/120401.html

It will be interesting to see what kind of ramifications this will have on other developed countries.

Electroless nickel is a fair substitute for ABC, but it isn't the same as the electro-deposited Nikasil type coatings found in automotive and industrial engines. For a better description of composite electro-plated nickel coatings check out these sites:
http://sparkysbarn.com/motodynamo/nikasil.htm
http://www.usnicom.com/What_Is_NiCom/what_is_nicom.html

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

Chuck, I have an old Webra .91 that has run many hours as a Glow engine and for about the last 6 years as a Diesel, I referred to it one time as an ABC engine but was corrected that it is an ABN engine. To this day you cannot begin to turn it over by the prop driver like you can a lot of other engines, it simply does not leak off.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

All:

As I have stated before, there are many ABN engine makers that have never had a problem. OS is not one of them. Thunder Tiger is ABN, in all their years of production I have only heard of one plating failure.

TT uses ABN because it's cheap. Keeps the price down.

OS claiming "Environmental restriction" as a reason for their use of nickel plating is an excuse I am not able to accept. Every other Japanese engine manufacturer is still building ABC. Any restrictions on OS producti9on apply equally to the others.

I can only conclude:
OS uses ABN because it's cheap. Keeps the price down profit up.

Bill.

Harry Lagman

I'm sorry but this stuff makes me chuckle!

There's nothing like a Chrome Versus Nickel thread to spark an emotional discussion.

Just in this thread alone, we've got conflicting advice on how to tell an ABN OS from an ABC one, an assertion that "OS is not making ABC engines" when clearly they still are in selected applications, and implications that OS is uniquely interested in increasing profits (gasp!), as if the other engine companies aren't!

If Thunder Tiger, Magnum et al thought they could ask more for their products than they currently do and maintain their unit sales performance, guess what... they would! Some guys speak as though the evil O.S. empire forces us in droves to go to the nearest hobby outlet and pay their outrageous prices against our will.

A Magnum .46 XLS lists on Tower at $90. An OS AX .46 lists at $115. Is this an outrageous price difference? Do the Magnum guys add the price of the extra gallon of fuel required to break in their beloved chrome bore before they can fly? Do they add the price of the forty buck OS carburetor some of the Magnums end up with to solve the midrange issues? I didn't think so!

I'm glad we have such a wide range of choices for powerplants. Long may it last! I love the engines part of our hobby. Just unpacking and handling an engine like a YS, a Jett a Saito or an OS and admiring the quality of manufacture gives me almost as much pleasure as using the thing. Personally, while I can buy high quality engines from Europe, USA and Japan, I will continue to do so. IMHO, even though there are some good ones out there (TH .75 springs to mind), buying Chinese clones is a little like buying polyester suits, Yugo cars or imitation Rolexes - yeah it does the job but it aint the real thing...

daven

My Feedback: (1)

Harry,

You made my night. Nice post.

Iflyglow

My Feedback: (79)

OS should know that chrome is superior, isn't that why there high end car engines for example still use it. Nickel plated high performance engines appear to have a very short life span. If you know that Why would you want to take a short cut that sacrifices durability and longivity for your other lines of engines. The reason is because they are cheap, I would rather buy a chinese engine constructed the proper way in my opinion than pay for cheap constructed s**t just to buy the OS name.

ChuckN

Has anyone had a new OS 46AX peel on them yet? Mine hasn't, but it is still fairly new. I look forward to flying this engine more and more.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

I have several OS engines that run great. I am not in the least displeased with any of them. Except my 46 FX.

I got the 46 FX when we heard every week of another 20-30 OS engines shelling their liners. OS insisted there was nothing wrong, (they still have not admitted any problem) it was owner abuse that caused the problem.

I bought the 46 FX to run myself, see how long it took to fail, I knew I wouldn't mistreat it. Put it on a Modeltech "Magic" and flew the pooh out of it. Didn't shell. Started running it harder. Kept going. Even now really mistreating it by keeping the throttle open on the down lines with an APC 12.25x3.75 prop. Must be getting 18-19K rpm. Still going.

Blasted thing wont blow up. Really disappointing.

But I still will not pay their price as a regular thing when other engines of equal or better quality can be had for a lower price.

Bill.

donkey doctor

Hello; I don't intend to hi jack this thread but, I dis-assembled my wifes 3.5 liter BMW nicasil engine after 440.000 kms. the engine rounded off a camshaft lobe and turned into a four cylinder engine when the valves wouldn't open. I couldn't believe that there was no measureable bore wear after 440 thousand kms. Laser use the nicasil process in their engines, so I can't believe that the process can be cost prohibitive. I think the ABN process is used because it's cheap and easy, not durable and long lasting. Someone else said that other Japanese engines use chrome (like Saito) so I won't believe that it's prohibited in Japan.

ChuckN

Chrome is not prohibited, just regulated very closely. This adds costs to the manufacturing process that electroless nickel doesn't. Cheap and easy could describe electroless nickel. You or I could buy the solutions and safely electroless plate nickel in our kitchen with nothing more than a bucket. Enthone Enplate and MacDermid NIKLAD are two popular brands of plating solution.

On the other hand, electro-plated nickel-composite coatings (such as Nikasil, Apticote, CermiNil, NiCom) require electrical equipment and solutions that you really don't want in your kitchen. Same with hard chrome plating.

One other big difference between electroless nickel and electro-plated nickel coatings is that electroless can be heat treated for hardness while electro-plated nickel cannot. The only reason electro-plated nickel-composite coatings can hold up in ringed automotive and industrial engines is because of the extremely hard carbide and /or other ceramic elements that are combined into the coating process. The relatively soft electro-plated nickel plating essentially acts as a bonding agent adhering the carbide / ceramic particles to the cylinder wall.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

I have a couple OS 46 FX's and I fly at a field that is almost exclusive OS in the two cycles. No one has ever seen a peeled liner including me.

Enjoy,

Jim

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Jim:

I've seen several, Flyboy Dave even had a couple fail on him.

Do a search, you will find all you want. The shelling failures tapered off about a year ago, I suppose most that were going to peel had done so by that time.

The failures were not confined to the 46 FX, several of the larger engines did it too.

Bill.

Spicoli

Harry,
Great Post