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Old 05-10-2014, 07:33 AM
  #26451  
SrTelemaster150
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Methanol is about 1/2 the price of gasoline if you live near a large city.

If you are paying over $20 a gallon for < 20% nitro glow fuel, you're not shopping. Even here on the tundra of northern NYS I can buy a 4 gallon case of 15% Cool Power for $80. If I buy from Hobbytown USA when we are visiting relatives in Idianapolis the price drops to $68.

I still think the jury is still out on long term reliability of Saito gas engines. There have been issues W/some models. Carbon build-up as well as substantially higher operating temperatures might take their toll over time. Only after the gas Saitos have been in service for 10 years or more can we compare the durability to the glow fuel versions of similar engines.

I have a piston/cylinder/ring/crank/rod from an FA-150 that has had well over 50 gallons of Cool Power through it. All of those parts are still in perfect working order. I am still using the valve train including the cam in my high compression FA-180.
Old 05-10-2014, 12:16 PM
  #26452  
taildragger1589
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Originally Posted by SrTelemaster150 View Post
I still think the jury is still out on long term reliability of Saito gas engines.
Regular wear is low on my list of engine mortality causes.
My biggest cause of engine failure is rapid deceleration.
But if I get lucky, I'll be able to let you know how it goes.

Nick
Old 05-10-2014, 01:08 PM
  #26453  
skypup50
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Originally Posted by taildragger1589 View Post
My feelings exactly!
People made the same remarks back in 1981 when I bought the "innovative" OS .60 four stroke.
They said it was too heavy and too underpowered and a good 2 stroke 30 would put out as much power for 1/3 the money.

All this was true but I loved the sound and the big prop ability so much that I didn't care.
I wound up with the .40, .60, .90, and 1.20 and flew them all till I retired from the hobby and loved every minute of my underpowered fleet.
(Ok, the Smith wasn't exactly underpowered, but it wasn't fast, it just climbed straight up)

Now I've re-entered the hobby with the electric boom in '05 and found it a little wanting until Good old Saito shook things up a bit.

I've pulled the Balsa USA Taube that held the OS .40 fs out of the attic and put the FG11 on it.
Love at first flight, though it's a bit over powered, I usually fly it at 1/2 throttle.
Now we're building a Quaker for it.
The Irony is that the Quaker is the ship we used for the OS .60 four stroke. (see the pic)
So I too have come full circle. (Nice part is the gas is $3 a gallon instead of $30)

Nick
Beautiful plane Nick! Brings back memories. I built a Buzzard Bombshell in silk back then. My first four stroke from the early 80's was an OS 120 in a Chuck Cunningham Miss Texas I built from a kit. That low wing open cockpit and the silk scarf flapping in the breeze with the sound of a four stroke while shooting touch n gos was music to my ears. My friends called it a "pig" but it was a great sport plane and I loved it!
Old 05-10-2014, 01:27 PM
  #26454  
SrTelemaster150
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Originally Posted by taildragger1589 View Post
Regular wear is low on my list of engine mortality causes.
My biggest cause of engine failure is rapid deceleration.
But if I get lucky, I'll be able to let you know how it goes.

Nick

My FA-150 will be on it's 3rd airframe the next time it takes to the air. The 1st went straight in @ WOT from a split "S" that was attempted with "insufficient altitude". Buried the entire engine block/jug in the still soft Southern Indiana spring clay. The only thing sticking out of the ground was the muffler.

I promptly grasped the muffler W/my bare hand to pull it from the earth. I soon thought better of that choice & opted to let go of the item!

The only parts of that engine that aren't still serviceable are the original crank bearings, lifters & the "Fire Hose Nozzle" that was randomly jettisoned, @ altitude, over an early August corn field.

A big block Saito single can take a lot of crash abuse & still keep on tickin'! So can the CDI as the only thing from the original 1997 build C&H-Electronics Snychrospark system, which by the way has also survived the same crashes, that needs replacement is a high tension spark plug lead that was damaged by abrasion inside the cowl. It still functions but it's pretty "tatty" looking
Old 05-10-2014, 01:38 PM
  #26455  
taildragger1589
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Being a child of the sixties, the term big block always sends chills up and down my spine.
I'm still intent on converting an FA 180 to ignition, but have 3 airplanes in line ahead of the Precedent Stampe I want to put it on. It's looking like it might be 2016 before it happens, but I'll post here when I do.

I snickered over the hot muffler story, been there done that.

Once I was breaking in a hot OS 40 in the nose of a falcon 56. wanted to put a good 2 or 3 hours on it before mounting it in the cowl of a Goldberg Shoestring.
Wouldn't you know it pulled the maple mounts right out of the nose and sounded like an angry hornet as it shot out to the horizon, never to be seen again.
The falcon just stopped in midair and floated down to the runway with me holding full down to keep it creeping forward... no damage.
Old 05-10-2014, 02:30 PM
  #26456  
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Man I just can't seem to empty this gallon jug of gas. 4 hours flying and still have a quart left. Wish my glow fuel would last as long.
Old 05-10-2014, 02:41 PM
  #26457  
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That fire hose nozzle sure was big.

Woops, wrong picture
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Old 05-10-2014, 05:32 PM
  #26458  
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That's ok it's in focus dave and the picture does illustrate the size difference between the saito 220 cast muffler and the turboheader,big weight difference too!

ps your glow fuel prices over there are unbelievable,here we pay about 200+ aud for a case of 10%

Last edited by Rudolph Hart; 05-10-2014 at 05:35 PM.
Old 05-10-2014, 07:14 PM
  #26459  
taildragger1589
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Originally Posted by SrTelemaster150 View Post
The 1st went straight in @ WOT from a split "S" that was attempted with "insufficient altitude".
The famous figure 9 maneuver!

As the pic below shows, I had a slight altercation with a tree.
I have it apart now and had to order the cam housing as well. The brass tappet tubes were bent as well as the rods and tubes.

Question for the experts...
What are you using these days for a ring compressor?
I think I used to use a hose clamp, but I'm not sure, it's been a while since I tore one down.

All suggestions are welcomed.

Nick
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Old 05-10-2014, 07:30 PM
  #26460  
skypup50
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Could use some advise. I haven't messed with nitro for quite awhile.........mostly electric for a number of years now. Only infernal combustion has been my FG-21. I just bought an 82 Golden Knight new in box. I'm planning on flying it in a 60 sized BlackHorse models Birddog and then a Dave Platt 60" span Waco. Some break in advice is needed. Should I bench run first or in the plane? Which nitro and oil type and content? Thanks!
Old 05-11-2014, 12:05 AM
  #26461  
Rudolph Hart
 
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That's some pretty exceptional damage nick

I did the same bench running a saito 115 in the shed.Had the engine self tappered into a soft piece of pine and on the second tank it had an unauthorised test flight in the shed.Bounced off heaps of things but luckily the shed roller door was open and the car windscreen stopped it.
Old 05-11-2014, 12:16 AM
  #26462  
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Skypup hobbsy has a method he favours but i think we all do it differently.I stick to under 4000 for the first tank then halfway thru the second tank i start to wind the hsn in a bit every now and then so the engine accelerates gently.Four tanks is heaps and ready to fly.You'd definitely bench run it,the lsn is very rich and they vibrate like hell till you start leaning them out.

The 82gk will be good power in the planes you mention.I run one in a decathlon 46 size and people say that's overpowered(it's like...YEAH!) because it will go vertical as far as you want.I stick to 10% in nearly everything.I run less oil than most but if you stick to 15% synthetic and 3% castor you won't go wrong.

ps my crystal ball is working...it says we're gunna have an oil war
Old 05-11-2014, 03:37 AM
  #26463  
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Originally Posted by taildragger1589 View Post

Question for the experts...
What are you using these days for a ring compressor?

Nick
Opposing thumbnail/index finger.

The bottom of the jug should have a chamfer that will allow the ring to self compress W/some help from the tools cited above. Just make sure the piston is square W/the bore when you push it home.
Old 05-11-2014, 03:41 AM
  #26464  
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It's tough today that was engine manufacturers, now that model aviation becomes electricity.
Many well-known manufacturers have healed down.
Now it is the turn of Saito ending to make black engines.
it becomes increasingly difficult to sell methanol engines today
Lars
Old 05-11-2014, 03:55 AM
  #26465  
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Originally Posted by skypup50 View Post
Could use some advise. I haven't messed with nitro for quite awhile.........mostly electric for a number of years now. Only infernal combustion has been my FG-21. I just bought an 82 Golden Knight new in box. I'm planning on flying it in a 60 sized BlackHorse models Birddog and then a Dave Platt 60" span Waco. Some break in advice is needed. Should I bench run first or in the plane? Which nitro and oil type and content? Thanks!
Keeping the RPM under 4000 for the 1st 10 minutes is good practice, but my advise is to vary the RPM by working the throttle occasionally. After that, it is sustained high RPM that must be avoided. Brief near WOT bursts (1-2 seconds) aid in bottom end lubrication as the increased cylinder pressure will force more oil into the case. It is sustained high RPM & the friction/heat associated W/it that is the bane of a new engine. Gradually increase the RPM levels attained as as well as the duration when the throttle is blipped.

After about 30 minutes, the HSN can be adjusted.


There are other methods but this works for me & my engines make good power & I have never had any ring/cylinder related problems once broken in.

What ever method you use, avoid sustained high RPM fir at least 30 minutes if you use my method, longer if you use the steady RPM break in procedure.
Old 05-11-2014, 04:10 AM
  #26466  
Hobbsy
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I know Dan is concerned with the steady rpm but when I say 10 minutes at 4,000 or 10 minutes at 5,000 it doesn't stay there more than about 1 minute then the rpm begins to crawl upward. When the throttle is set for the 5,000 rpm run it will end up at 5,500 to 5,600 every time. It's as if you can actually hear engine the engine parts jelling into an engine.

Pete, that picture is of the 2.20 muffler and TH, the stocker is 3.6 oz and the TH is 1.8 oz.
Old 05-11-2014, 05:10 AM
  #26467  
SrTelemaster150
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy View Post
I know Dan is concerned with the steady rpm but when I say 10 minutes at 4,000 or 10 minutes at 5,000 it doesn't stay there more than about 1 minute then the rpm begins to crawl upward. When the throttle is set for the 5,000 rpm run it will end up at 5,500 to 5,600 every time. It's as if you can actually hear engine the engine parts jelling into an engine.

Pete, that picture is of the 2.20 muffler and TH, the stocker is 3.6 oz and the TH is 1.8 oz.
Again Dave you fail to grasp the concept of cylinder pressure. RPM "creeping" up does not generate more cylinder pressure. It is merely the reduction if friction allowing the RPM to, in your own words, "creep" upwards. The cylinder pressure is not increasing as the RPM "creeps" up.

You have every right to your opinion & advocating your own methods, but please quit misinterpreting the concept of increasing cylinder pressure brought about by opening the throttle to briefly increase RPM.

Let me pose this question to you.

Which method will maximize bottom end lubrication? Would it be the engine running under light load @ a steady throttle setting or an engine BRIEFLY put under higher load by opening the throttle for short bursts thus maximizing cylinder pressure W/O subjecting the engine to the increased friction of long sustained high RPM?
Old 05-11-2014, 05:41 AM
  #26468  
Jim Branaum
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Jeez, I almost feel that this is yet another waste of time just like the oil and turn down wind wars.

*I* use the exact same break in procedure on my Saito's as I have used on my OS ABC engines. Put it on the plane, tie it down, fuel it up, start it up and run it for 30 seconds before peaking it with the HSN for 15 seconds then richening it up a 1/2 turn or more (1/2 early, more late in the process). After another 30 seconds, lean it out again but add 15 seconds to the time at lean. Repeat this for the first tank of fuel adding 15 seconds to the lean run each time. Then refill the tank and repeat but start with the high speed run at 1 minute and add 30 seconds to each high speed run with a full minute between each run. Then refill the tank, check the LSN and go fly, doing a lot of touch and goes the first couple of tanks.

The 'trick' seems to be the heat cycling at the same time the ring and other parts are seating.

Your approach may be different, it may be more elegant, and it may even be better, but my way has worked for me on my Saito's for 20+ years and I am happy with it.
Old 05-11-2014, 05:46 AM
  #26469  
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Ya all are way ahead of me in experience and knowledge. But it would seem that during initial break in the ring has not seated yet. so We are allowing it to seat in also some minor wear in of the lower end parts. And likely valve train parts as well.

If the ring has not seated yet shouldn't there be more blow by and thus a bit more oil getting to the lower end and to the valve train as a consequence?

I have always broke a 4 stroke in at low R's and then bumped it up after some time with short throttle burst. I did this on the baffle piston 2 strokes as well.

I also like to add some castrol (spelling?)oil to start and then back that off to stock fuel.

I ain't no mechanic or son of a mechanic nor father of a a mechanic (in fact I would not let my kids near a wrench and engine at the same), but I was always told and taught to break a car or other motor in easy and in time add short throttle burst (GENTLE burst). It has worked well for me.

Ken
Old 05-11-2014, 05:48 AM
  #26470  
skypup50
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Originally Posted by Jim Branaum View Post
Jeez, I almost feel that this is yet another waste of time just like the oil and turn down wind wars.

*I* use the exact same break in procedure on my Saito's as I have used on my OS ABC engines. Put it on the plane, tie it down, fuel it up, start it up and run it for 30 seconds before peaking it with the HSN for 15 seconds then richening it up a 1/2 turn or more (1/2 early, more late in the process). After another 30 seconds, lean it out again but add 15 seconds to the time at lean. Repeat this for the first tank of fuel adding 15 seconds to the lean run each time. Then refill the tank and repeat but start with the high speed run at 1 minute and add 30 seconds to each high speed run with a full minute between each run. Then refill the tank, check the LSN and go fly, doing a lot of touch and goes the first couple of tanks.

The 'trick' seems to be the heat cycling at the same time the ring and other parts are seating.

Your approach may be different, it may be more elegant, and it may even be better, but my way has worked for me on my Saito's for 20+ years and I am happy with it.
It's unfortunate you feel like you're almost wasting your time but I appreciate everyone's advise. Thanks for the help everyone.
Old 05-11-2014, 05:53 AM
  #26471  
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I bet any thing other than obviously abusive ways work well, some maybe better, but how much better? If it has worked well for some one then it should be fine. A bad way will, well the owner will find out shortly.

These engine are so well made and fitted today that they are more tolerant of method and still give good results with in reason a course.

Ken
Old 05-11-2014, 07:33 AM
  #26472  
taildragger1589
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Originally Posted by skypup50 View Post
Should I bench run first or in the plane?
Just wanted to mention that I break my engines in, in the plane for two reasons:
It tests out my tank setup and throttle setup.
(I know a few, myself included, that have made 45 minute maiden flights because the throttle suddenly jammed)
I'm lucky enough to have waist high running stands at the field.
Also, for nitro, I always broke in my engines with fox superfuel, which had 5% nitro and pure castor oil. Worked well in the eighties.

Originally Posted by Old Fart View Post
That's some pretty exceptional damage nick
I did the same bench running a saito 115 in the shed.Had the engine self tappered into a soft piece of pine and on the second tank it had an unauthorised test flight in the shed.Bounced off heaps of things but luckily the shed roller door was open and the car windscreen stopped it.
after close examination, I think I got lucky that it was the only damage. seems to have hit pretty hard.
Also lucky that the smaller castings are inexpensive. I think the total cost is going to be around $50 to repair.
The pics show the damage to the brass tappet tubes in the cam housing, I wasn't expecting that, but them's the breaks.

I have never taken apart an engine that had the carb oring seal with the intake tube, it just slipped out when I lifted the cylinder, I assume that with a little light machine oil on the intake tube, it should just slip back in upon reassembly.

We'll see during and after that first test run. It's a bit harder to tell on this one because black oil is normal on gassers, and a sign of trouble on the nitro engines.
re windshield: Ha! just like the parachute joke, luckily the ground broke my fall.
Originally Posted by SrTelemaster150 View Post
Opposing thumbnail/index finger.
The bottom of the jug should have a chamfer that will allow the ring to self compress W/some help from the tools cited above. Just make sure the piston is square W/the bore when you push it home.
Thanks!
I was getting confused between model rebuilds and my VW 1600cc rebuilds. They look so much alike, obviously, I was remembering the VW's compression tool.
(and still remember to set #3 cylinder's valves a little loose).

Now as soon as the parts come in we'll see how much I have forgotten.

Nick
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Old 05-11-2014, 09:47 AM
  #26473  
Hobbsy
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Dan. the next time you break in a Saito by any method you choose, note that oil pours out of the vent at a high rate when the needles are rich, no matter the throttle setting or speed. The cylinder pressure will always be exactly what is required to drive the prop at the current rpm.
Old 05-11-2014, 11:06 AM
  #26474  
SrTelemaster150
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy View Post
Dan. the next time you break in a Saito by any method you choose, note that oil pours out of the vent at a high rate when the needles are rich, no matter the throttle setting or speed. The cylinder pressure will always be exactly what is required to drive the prop at the current rpm.

The cylinder pressure is much higher when the engine is accelerating the prop as it must overcome not only the air resistance, but the resistance of inertia of the mass of the propeller.

The WOT allows a denser intake air charge thus increasing cylinder pressure, thus increasing torque, thus accelerating the propeller speed/RPM. Once the propeller reaches the static RPM for the amount of throttle opened, then yes the cylinder pressure will be constant per the RPM/propeller size/pitch.

Does the cylinder pressure in your car increase if you accelerate @ WOT compared to accelerating like you have an egg under your right foot?
Old 05-11-2014, 12:51 PM
  #26475  
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You simply can't apply the break in procedure for an engine that has to be broken in at its normal operating temp to our engines. We are breaking the Saitos in nearly stone cold by comparison, the final clearances are not being being set up during our break in, that happens during the flying when the operating temperatures are more normal.

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