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Old 08-16-2014, 04:24 AM
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My condolences, Dave.

-Artto
Old 08-16-2014, 04:28 AM
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Every Saito I have ever purchased new has had some sort off warning about the use of castor in the instructions. This is nothing new.
Old 08-16-2014, 09:44 AM
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The directions actually say, the use of all castor lube is not recommended and then qualifies that by saying a syn/castor blend as found in many fuels is acceptible. Selective reading never reveals the whole truth..
Old 08-16-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
The directions actually say, the use of all castor lube is not recommended and then qualifies that by saying a syn/castor blend as found in many fuels is acceptible. Selective reading never reveals the whole truth..
Is that not "some sort if warning about the use if castor"?

It appears that perhaps it is you that suffers from selective reading.
Old 08-16-2014, 12:38 PM
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Not true, I read the entire Fuel Paragraph from the 2009 version which Horizon says is the latest version. All but a very few on here have used castor with no issues.
Old 08-16-2014, 05:19 PM
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There's nothing like reading this thread to exercise mind and body,take now for instance.I've just had to get up from the keyboard and walk all the way out to the shed.Then i've had to strain the memory cells for the location of all my saito engine manuals and got that whittled down to three possible locations.Quite a lot of lifting involved and found them somewhere else anyway

You are both right and only a small part of the manual deals with fuel,on the 182 twin it does'nt seem like saito care what you run in it...BUT they devote a whole page to tuning and not running them lean,something they seem to feel is far more likely to happen.In the 82 manual it specifically says to NOT run castor.I have always run between 3 and 5% castor and these engines have a lot of hours on them.When the engine is stripped (bearing change) they are clean as a whistle.I could quote all the engine manuals i have and all the different things they say from one saito to another but the translation to english (meaning) on it's own gives me a headache.

Sun's just come up and burning some cloud off,time to fire up the ducati and head up into the hills.
Old 08-16-2014, 06:50 PM
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Ok now that I have stirred some debate to answer a couple of points. Saito has changed the design of some of its series of engines, Check out the engines that have common mounts as a quick example. In reading this column / blog whatever I have noted a number of differences between information given to the American to other places in the world of Saito. My most current / personal example is the operating instructions (including care and feeding) for the FG20. The data I have from the factory is in comparison to the data from Horizon Hobbies absolute crap. Horizon Hobbies in this case do a far better job. Old Fart, on the castor thing, I decided that apart from the fuel I feed my Irvines (4:1 FAI fuel methanol to castor) the best was to get a castor fix was to play with diesels like my ED's, Taipans and converted 2 strokes. Horses for courses and personal preference prevails always. I have seen a guy run 15% oil in a 50 and complain of overheating. "Always ran that content," and still continues to do so and is a constant source of Saitos for sale that need bearings. All food for thought.
Old 08-16-2014, 06:54 PM
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As a parting shot, this declared need to use synthetic as opposed to castor has only happened since the introduction of the 56 and subsequent engines to the best of my knowledge. This also coincided with the "common engine mount" type crankcase drilling thingy. The reason why it sticks is that us QLDER O/T flyers got a rule change to Texaco "supplied fuel mix" to accomodate this varience in spec.
Old 08-16-2014, 11:58 PM
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Some interesting info trevor.That 50 running on 15% oil is an interesting point the bearings could be failing for several reasons.Lean runs produce an incredible amount of heat quicker than i can say it,he might never run after run oil and if that's somewhere like here you will lose a set of bearings to rust every three months.Dave had a photo up ages ago of the backplate removed and you could see the oil there,more than you need.Some of my engines still have original bearings and i run 10 or 12% klotz 200 plus 3% castor.I've had the backplate off and had a look,you can pour the stuff out the back of the engine.On a twin that effect would be multiplied because of the additional cylinder and radials better still.If you (we all) are reasonable at tuning i'd ignore what saito says and treat the oil type and amount just like some of the other product warning labels you get on new things you buy nowadays.Don't get me wrong,i'm not saying lets kill all the stupid people,just sayin maybe we should leave the labels off and the problem will sort itself out.Some people reckon i'd be at the front of that q
Old 08-17-2014, 02:57 AM
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Last season I used 4 gallons of the WildCat 15% 2/4 fuel with 18% full synthetic. I saw no advantage to using it and certainly no problem using it. I left my 1.15 stand open for about 2 weeks to see if the innards would dry off and they stayed wet. That speaks well for whatever synthetic WildCat uses. I have four more gallons of the 2/4 in my cart at Tower, I want to run it some more. I am getting my right eye lens replaced in September and don't trust my vision to fly right now. Flying a yellowish/gray fuzzy image of an airplane is not fun.What seems to be the case here is that no matter which poison we choose it won't effect the engine enough to effect its life span.
Old 08-17-2014, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
Last season I used 4 gallons of the WildCat 15% 2/4 fuel with 18% full synthetic. I saw no advantage to using it and certainly no problem using it. I left my 1.15 stand open for about 2 weeks to see if the innards would dry off and they stayed wet. That speaks well for whatever synthetic WildCat uses. I have four more gallons of the 2/4 in my cart at Tower, I want to run it some more. I am getting my right eye lens replaced in September and don't trust my vision to fly right now. Flying a yellowish/gray fuzzy image of an airplane is not fun.What seems to be the case here is that no matter which poison we choose it won't effect the engine enough to effect its life span.
Wildcat is a Byron fuels product and uses Klotz oils. It is one of the few fuel labels to list oil content. Cool Power does not list oil content, so I stay away from it(It also costs more). I took a gallon of the 2/4 15% and added a few oz of Klotz Caster to it to bring it up to 20% content for breaking in an engine, and running some of that in my already broke in engine produced a lot of extra slime on the plane, so I reserve it for only run in now and opened a new bottle to fly with, plenty of oil in Wildcat. When I tore down the Saito to repair it, it had a nice healthy coating of oil inside.
Old 08-17-2014, 07:13 AM
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The only engine I ever ran all synthetic in is the only engine I've had to change bearings for rust. This mostly ran all synthetic oil because I bought it used that way and just kept using Coolpower for a while.

Dan, it is a well known fact that for a short period the English manual writers for Saito imports did state to not use castor oil, but that was completely changed fairly quickly and many, many years ago. So, technically you are correct, but only for a period that was many years ago.

I think many people get too wrapped up in the oil content thing. Just give it about 18% oil. Some castor is a proven benefit. Breaking in by the manual is the minimum consideration. The engine won't give you much at first, which is what the manual is trying to tell you anyway. But, I have broken in Saitos almost just like Dave does. I was brought up to run engines hard when breaking in, so I give them a lot of wide open throttle time when they begin loosening up.
Old 08-17-2014, 07:55 AM
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HOBBSY,iwould realy like to hear your procedure on break in. I bought some byruns 15% nitro 21% lo-vis realy cheap,do I need to keep it or get rid of it?I thought about mixing some klotz benol castor to it, but would that put my total oil content to high?(would like for someone to tell mey how many .oz of caster per gallonincreases it by 1%)
Old 08-17-2014, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by blw
The only engine I ever ran all synthetic in is the only engine I've had to change bearings for rust. This mostly ran all synthetic oil because I bought it used that way and just kept using Coolpower for a while.

Dan, it is a well known fact that for a short period the English manual writers for Saito imports did state to not use castor oil, but that was completely changed fairly quickly and many, many years ago. So, technically you are correct, but only for a period that was many years ago.

I think many people get too wrapped up in the oil content thing. Just give it about 18% oil. Some castor is a proven benefit. Breaking in by the manual is the minimum consideration. The engine won't give you much at first, which is what the manual is trying to tell you anyway. But, I have broken in Saitos almost just like Dave does. I was brought up to run engines hard when breaking in, so I give them a lot of wide open throttle time when they begin loosening up.
All of you need to read & comprehend my post about "some sort of" castor warnings in the Saito manuals.

They still warn against using full castor lube.

That is "SOME SORT IF WARNING" is it not?

I don't know what else contributed to the rust issue when you used Cool Power as I have stored engine that where run exclusively on Cool Power for over 14 years W/O rust issues.

While there may not be detrimental affects to using some castor, if the engines are tuned properly & stored properly, there is no benefit.

If I was still afflicted W/glow ignition on my engines, perhaps I might have differing results.

W/the higher EGTs of CDI, castor will contribute to exhaust port coking. Since "gas" will have considerably higher EGTs than either GI/methanol or CDI/methanol, that might be why Saito recommends full synthetic lube in the FG engine line.
Old 08-17-2014, 09:44 AM
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Aggie, I run the engine at a rich setting for:
10 minutes at 4,000 rpm with the throttle 1/4 to 1/3rd open, not wide open and richened down to 4,000 as some claim.
10 minutes at 5,000 rpm, it will accelerate to about 5,500 during this run I just let it go
10 minutes at 6,000 rpm, it will accelerate, maybe 100 rpm during this run
10 minutes at 7,000 with brief shots to full
At the beginning of each 10 minute period I set the throttle at the suggested rpm and don't touch it untill the next 10 minute period starts. With lartger engines you'll need to refuel, just resume where you left off.

Set the needles to optimum and go fly staying a little rich on the HS needle. No need to waste 3 or 4 gallons of fuel to do what Saitos recommended 40 minutes will do.

Last edited by Hobbsy; 08-17-2014 at 09:49 AM.
Old 08-17-2014, 02:57 PM
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Ok me again. Old Fart, using 15% oil (of what ever persuasion) appears to be ok as long as you run on the rich side of optimum. If however you start screwing rpm out off the unit then troubles result (once again what ever persuasion oil). Now on the rust thingy and storing. The only engines (not only Saitos) that I have had real rust problems are the ones that I put away to fly later in the week and were to stupid to do the lean run and after run thing at the end of a days flying. I am putting a 50 into a Sportster 40 that last saw the light of day in Kual Lumpur in the front of a CG Cub in 1993. I unwrapped it and it spun over ok, put a new plug in it and fired it up no worries. The other engine I am dealing with is a YS 63 of the I'll be flying it later in the week catagory. That was 3 years ago. Bearings and seals are on order. BTB you do not use castor in a pumped engine of the diaphragm type). Now what I am trying to say here is rust in bearings is not usually the fault of the oil rather the methanol we used, it has a high affinity for water. What I do at end of day is a lean run to fuel expiry and while it it hot squirt some oil (any oil but usually ATF) up the breathe or down the fuel line while spinning the motor over on the starter. No rust problems. On high nitro fuel engines we do a cleansing run with low to no nitro followed by the oiling. I mostly use FAI fuel for a cleansing run in these cases.
On the change of specs / design Saito have been (it appears) standardising on cran case sizes in recent years with capacity being varied by barrel size and also stroke. Any body have thoughts on this.
Old 08-17-2014, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by FNQFLYER
On the change of specs / design Saito have been (it appears) standardising on cran case sizes in recent years with capacity being varied by barrel size and also stroke. Any body have thoughts on this.
Standardizing & reducing the number of crankcase castings required to reduce cost is only sound business planning.

Likewise for the cylinder castings. I recently purchased an FA-180B cylinder for a hybrid 150 crank/180 rod & top end project. (High compression FA-171)

The FA-180 "B" cylinder is the same as the earlier version as far as critical dimensions, but the casting has a lot more cooling fin area as well as more meat around the ports. That is most likely so they can get better cooling for the much higher operating temperatures of the FG-30 gas version. It only made sense that they would eliminate the older version to reduce inventory logistics. I am glad to see the improved cooling for my high compression CDI applications that, while not generating nearly as much heat as the gas versions, still run quite a bit warmer than the standard GI version of the engine.

A few. years back I experimented W/GI/glow fuel, CDI/glow fuel & CDI/e-85 on an otherwise stock FA-150. The conversion to CDI/glow fuel ran a bit hotter than GI due to the more efficient burning of the fuel @ leaner needle settings. Going to E-85 really shot up CHTs & I would suspect that straight gasoline would raise temperatures even more.

So, as far as your original question. Yes standardizing the crankcases is a good thing. The engine that I have my eye on for my next purchase us the FA-115 which combines the FA-91S stroke in the FA-65 size footprint W/the bore of the FA-125. I have tested the FA-125 W/CDI & was not impressed as it barely made more power than my FA-91S CDI. I think I can wring out as much power from the FA-115 CDI.

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Old 08-17-2014, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Fart
Barry that was the funniest thing i've read in ages.Thanks for the explanation.
I almost forgot the crazy harrassment that Dave (Hobbsy) went through from one of our more psychotic former members over the compressibility of glow fuel and air entering a carb intake. I'm serious if you missed out on that one.
Old 08-17-2014, 06:04 PM
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I outlasted that guy.

If you gents think there are animated discussions here about oil, this is mild. I am a member over at HDF an IB sister site. Heated discussions and sometimes keyboard violence is exchanged concerning full synthetic vs. dino engine oil. I have a very scientific reason for using the dino oil. On a 370 mile trip, (to western Pa.) in hot weather my Sportster will use 3/4 quart of synthetic oil. On the same trip in hot weather using RevTech Dino oil, the bike uses none. Its an easy discision.

Last edited by Hobbsy; 08-17-2014 at 06:27 PM.
Old 08-18-2014, 04:56 AM
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You funny so and so's i like it hope other people do.

Sr start gettin friendly or i'll come over to your place and stick a new product warning label in the middle of your fourhead cuz
Old 08-18-2014, 06:30 AM
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OldFart, Down boy! LOL l don't know if any of ya, have try'ed it? l started running Powermaster 15% fuel. Here in the Hillbilly state of Arkansas, Cool Power is costing around $25-27.00 a gal. l'm getting Powermaster for $20.00 for 15% and 10% is a $1.00 cheeper. Just wonted to throw it out there. Bye
Old 08-18-2014, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by slamn sammy
OldFart, Down boy! LOL l don't know if any of ya, have try'ed it? l started running Powermaster 15% fuel. Here in the Hillbilly state of Arkansas, Cool Power is costing around $25-27.00 a gal. l'm getting Powermaster for $20.00 for 15% and 10% is a $1.00 cheeper. Just wonted to throw it out there. Bye
15% Cool Power is $67.96 for a 4 gallon case @ Hobbytiwn USA on the North side of Indianapolis. I stock up when we visit Wifey's family.
Old 08-18-2014, 08:15 AM
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I've likely mentioned this before, but have been using Rich's Brew for years now, picking up enough for myself and friends every spring at the Toledo Show. If I get there early Friday morning still stock of 15% nitro 18% castor synth mix. A bit messier to clean up, but with cowled motors can guarantee at least some protection if cooling airflow is low, (such as sustained vertical or tumble maneuvers).
Old 08-18-2014, 10:44 AM
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HOBBSY what is tour favorite fuel mixtue for break in and every day running,(total oil%,nitro%castor and syn. or just syn.)
Old 08-18-2014, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Cougar429
I've likely mentioned this before, but have been using Rich's Brew for years now, picking up enough for myself and friends every spring at the Toledo Show. If I get there early Friday morning still stock of 15% nitro 18% castor synth mix. A bit messier to clean up, but with cowled motors can guarantee at least some protection if cooling airflow is low, (such as sustained vertical or tumble maneuvers).
Wow! All the way from Houston, TX, to Canada! That fuel is well traveled.

I've been using 10% 2-stroke Powermaster ever since a guy in San Antonio started making it a few years ago. It's stocked by Home Town Crafts here in Kerrville.

CR

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