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Old 10-15-2014, 02:34 AM
  #27901  
Rudolph Hart
 
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As you know dave i'm not interested cdi on the small saito's just like to keep it very basic but you never say never in this life do you ?.Would you run a benchmark prop on the 80 before you do the conversion and after ? good luck with it.

Trev i'll wait a while before i look at old timers i'm too busy.Moving house in about two weeks so i'll be off the air for a couple of days (insert sigh of relief here) plus i've had a bad ant problem this year,they are under and around my shed in the millions and i've tried some recommended ant killer a few times,it does'nt seem to put a dent in the numbers so...i'm cleaning out the shed ready for the move and i've found some old re-loading supplies in a big box under the back workshop bench,i've got a kilo of ar 2208(australian) for the 7x57mm and some winnie 748 i used for the 30/30 and 44mag pistol(super redhawk) so...my plan is to do the same thing we did on shooting camps years ago if there was a bull ant nest nearby,aggressive little/big buggers they are.I'll trickle quite a bit down the ant holes(they all seem to link up) and then pour a bit of powder back away from the holes for a wick.Powder does'nt smell too good when you don't burn it out of a barrel and it's only got a sickly green/blue and lemon yellow flame to it but boy does it sparkle mate should be a good show.

ps naturally i'll take precautions and remove all my saito's that are attached to airframes etc.

pps i think dave has a dry sooner wit when you talk about plug lead lengths on a black shadow(which sound awesome on methanol and castrol r) altering electrical resistance and heat.I believe he might have been saying that the original author was being a bit economical with the truth.
Old 10-15-2014, 03:21 AM
  #27902  
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Pete, I already have the .80 in the PSP with a Fox Miracle plug and a Bolly 13.5x6 mounted on it to get a base line rpm. It's now 7:00 am, a little early to do that, I'll do it at 11:00ish O-clock.

I was being totally impish when I made that crack about spark plug wires, my take on it was that he was being generous with the BS.
Old 10-15-2014, 04:52 AM
  #27903  
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Originally Posted by Old Fart
As you know dave i'm not interested cdi on the small saito's just like to keep it very basic but you never say never in this life do you ?.Would you run a benchmark prop on the 80 before you do the conversion and after ? good luck with it.

The more Saito CDI/glow fuel conversions I do, the more surprises i get.

The usual results are 23-25% improvement in fuel economy due to the leaner neelde setting after conversion & 5-6% more power (200-300 RPM improvement @ WOT) when enough ignition advance is cranked in to take advantage of the methanol.

My 1st big surprise was my FA-200Ti which did not gain a bit in RPM, but imroved fuel economy by a whopping 70%. That was most likely due to the horrible A/F imbalance because of the poor intake manifold design.

Recently, a friend brought over a brand new FA-100 that had only been bench run on GI to break it in. We fired it up & did a benchmark GI pull W/a 14 x 6 propeller. The GI benchmark was 9700 RPM when leaned out for maximum power. (not backed off 200 RPM for a safety margin)

When we set up the CDI @ 33 BTDC, I was surprised to find that the HSN did not respond to leaning out. What was really amazing was the power gain. The engine immediately spun up to 10,200 RPM, an increase from 1.43 to 1.66 HP, a 43% HP gain! After running on CDI a bit, it loosened up some & it would immediately spin up to 10300 RPM then steadily wring out another 400 RPM to 10,700 for a maximium power output of 1.92 HP.

Now, I'm sure that the additional 500 RPM increase after some run time on CDI was due to the engine breaking in, but the intial 500 RPM/43% power gain from the 1st CDI pull was still a good comparison to the GI benchmark pull as they were done back to back under identical atmospheric conditions.

In the case of the FA-100 I would not expect a fuel economy improvement @ WOT because the needle setting weren't significantly changed. In that particular case, there was a tremendous power increase.

So, what can we take from these varied results when converting Saito engines to CDI from GI? There is always a significant improvement either in the form of significantly increased fuel economy W/a slight power gain, a tremendous increase in fuel economy W/the same power or a tremendous increase in power output W/O a change in fuel useage.

Idle, hand starting & over all user friendliness are always significantly improved along W/the above sighted improvements. Bottom line? On larger, say .91 & up displacement Saito glow engines, CDI is a very significant improvement. On smaller engines there will be similar improvements but airframe constraints associated W/these smaller displacement engines will result in diminishing returns due to the added weight & bulk of the module & battery.

Now I must attend to another project that needs immediate atention. Deer season is less than 2 weeks away & I am re-stocking my Dad's 30/40 Krag for my son to use.

Here is where I am W/that project.





Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 10-15-2014 at 10:55 AM.
Old 10-15-2014, 06:55 AM
  #27904  
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Dan, it's nearly prophetic that you mentioned 10,200, I just ran the high compression .80 on the WildCat 10% 2/4, the bar is set pretty high now.

Saito early .80 GK Prop===Bolly 13.5x6
Plug==Fox Miracle, a quite old one
Max rpm==10,200
Idle, nice easy 1,900
Exhaust==Davis Sound Master In Cowl muffler, the prop is louder than the exhaust when using this muffler, it is not restrictive. It is on the 1.00. Pictured is the engine at 9,000 rpm even. The 15.5 to 1 compression makes the full synthetic smoke pretty good.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Saito .80 on 10% (Small).jpg
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Last edited by Hobbsy; 10-15-2014 at 06:59 AM. Reason: Spelling
Old 10-15-2014, 07:15 AM
  #27905  
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Dave, I won't be doing any CDI work on my Saitos. I think I'm going to stick to stock glow and avoid gas altogether for now.

Dan, I always wanted a 30-40 Krag.
Old 10-15-2014, 08:32 AM
  #27906  
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I too am avoiding gas but enjoy the heck out converting these engines to CDI.
Old 10-15-2014, 11:33 AM
  #27907  
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Here's how the .62a compares with the Bolly 13.5x6

Saito .62a
Plug===Saito SS
Fuel=== PowerMaster 15% nitro/18%/80/20 blend
Prop===Bolly 13.5x6
Peak rpm==9,330
Two clicks rich=9,150
Idle==1,800 rpm
Attached Images   
Old 10-15-2014, 02:27 PM
  #27908  
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Originally Posted by blw
Dan, I always wanted a 30-40 Krag.
That was the 1st firearm I ever shot. I was 8 years old at the time. My big brother helped me hold it.

HERE IS A STORY ABOUT "DAD'S KRAG" Read posts 1 & 2 for the story.
Old 10-15-2014, 02:31 PM
  #27909  
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Old Fart your ant problem, I used Skydrol 500 (nasty hydraulic oil) and more recently pyrethrem (I think that is how your spell it) poured down the holes. Green ants don't like either nor do the ones that live in the ground. As an aside I gave my mate back a Super Hots (built in 1985) that he gave me. When he said he knew that I hadn't flown it and I stupidly said why, he produced about 5 feet of shed snake skin and said it had come out of the fuselage. I don't know how such a large snake got in there but it was there, from FNQ. Good luck with the move and if you need any data re the nats let me know this committee work on the principals of the secret squirrel and the mushroom but fortunatelt said august men decided that both my mate and I weren't up to the task of organising the O/T section. Mind you they wanted what we had already developed which was every thing which got lost in the ether. *****y yes but what the hell.
Old 10-15-2014, 04:53 PM
  #27910  
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Sir, see if you can buy Baffin over there
Old 10-16-2014, 02:51 AM
  #27911  
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Watch out for them shed snakes trev we don't get them over here thanks for the baffin tip bob i'll see if we have that here or it's equivalent.So far i've tried to be a bit 'green' and manage the problem till two weeks ago when i got zapped real good by a bull ant.I did a small test fire this arvo and there's that smell of smoke and battle in the nostrils.I've got about three kilo's of powder and umpteen several hundreds of large pistol /large rifle and shotshell primers as well so if the powder flame and smoke don't smoke 'em the shockwave will.Trev this is a green solution compared to pouring oil down a hole but you've given me a good idea.Next time i light the wick i can yell out 'fire in the hole' right mate ?

Dave the 62 i owned went really hard on a 13x6apc do you think the eighty should be doing better? trouble is i never wrote any figures down back then or now much and the one's i had kept i can't find right now.I know it's hard to tell if you are'nt there to watch an engine run but that looks mighty rich,what do you think?

Sr that's a nice sight picture thru the peep.
Old 10-16-2014, 06:20 AM
  #27912  
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Uh oh don't blow bull ants up at night you can't see where the black shiny little buggers are landing.
Old 10-16-2014, 08:11 AM
  #27913  
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I've heard that pouring gasoline down the hole(s) works well as the fumes travel all over the place. Some people like to let it sit a while and then light it off. I always use gasoline on yellow jacket nests. Usually, only a couple of oz will do the job on those things.

W8YE uses his bad glow fuel on ants and says that works well. I have a jug of bad fuel that I keep for unsticking engines and cleaning stuff. It is a good paint remover on some kinds of paint. I mostly only run Saitos now and I use raw glow fuel with a toothbrush sometimes to clean off the engines after running.
Old 10-16-2014, 01:31 PM
  #27914  
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Originally Posted by Old Fart
As you know dave i'm not interested cdi on the small saito's just like to keep it very basic but you never say never in this life do you ?.Would you run a benchmark prop on the 80 before you do the conversion and after ? good luck with it.

Trev i'll wait a while before i look at old timers i'm too busy.Moving house in about two weeks so i'll be off the air for a couple of days (insert sigh of relief here) plus i've had a bad ant problem this year,they are under and around my shed in the millions and i've tried some recommended ant killer a few times,it does'nt seem to put a dent in the numbers so...i'm cleaning out the shed ready for the move and i've found some old re-loading supplies in a big box under the back workshop bench,i've got a kilo of ar 2208(australian) for the 7x57mm and some winnie 748 i used for the 30/30 and 44mag pistol(super redhawk) so...my plan is to do the same thing we did on shooting camps years ago if there was a bull ant nest nearby,aggressive little/big buggers they are.I'll trickle quite a bit down the ant holes(they all seem to link up) and then pour a bit of powder back away from the holes for a wick.Powder does'nt smell too good when you don't burn it out of a barrel and it's only got a sickly green/blue and lemon yellow flame to it but boy does it sparkle mate should be a good show.

ps naturally i'll take precautions and remove all my saito's that are attached to airframes etc.

pps i think dave has a dry sooner wit when you talk about plug lead lengths on a black shadow(which sound awesome on methanol and castrol r) altering electrical resistance and heat.I believe he might have been saying that the original author was being a bit economical with the truth.
I spelled it wrong, it is called Bifen I/T. It is produced by Control Solution
Old 10-16-2014, 06:53 PM
  #27915  
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Telemaster 150, In the post about your surprises, was the fuel you ran in your testing, Glow fuel or Gas? If Glow fuel did you mix your own without nitro? What 2 stroke lube did you use. I have a 1.50 Saito I am about to run on CDI with glow fuel using stock carb. Got any tips on what to do? Thanks, Capt,n
Old 10-16-2014, 11:13 PM
  #27916  
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Thanks everybody for the tips on ants.It was getting a bit dangerous/unpredictable using my method i had bull ants landing all over the place and got bitten twice more.I poured a full container of glow fuel down the holes and they have disappeared.Wondered if you have flown the 82 yet barry.
Old 10-17-2014, 07:47 AM
  #27917  
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No, the weather has either been against me or I'm having to box up things for Ebay.

Among many things saved over the years, I have a lot of serious stereo equipment from the 70's and 80's that I'm selling off. Two more sales and I've paid for this brand new computer I just bought. The prices of some of this stuff is outrageous, and I'm not complaining. At worst, I'm breaking even with what what I paid back then. Some items have quadrupled, so I'm doing it now while the getting is good. I've still not touched much of my old tube radio gear yet. I need to also make another $1000 to pay for a Wellbrook loop antenna out of England for those who are hams and know about these things, and then possibly a second Software Defined Radio by Elad. I have one SDR now and I logged Navtex messages going out to ships last night that included a warning about F/V Urango on fire near Corsica, M/V Grey Dawn with 3 on board still overdue to Antiqua, a derelict ship floating in the ocean, and the ice berg warning reports for the Atlantic. Also, there were notices to ships that ports in Hawaii were closing due to tropical storm Ana. BTW, Australia is a major hub for marine and aviation reporting and tracking in that part of the world. I also log the automated aircraft reports like those the Malaysian airliner sent while flying wherever it went. I logged and tracked a Delta flight with an Ebola scare onboard about a month ago and recorded the ATC conversations. They detoured over the Atlantic to Newfoundland with contract medical teams arranged over the radio for the passengers. Interesting stuff and it never made the news. It sure beats watching TV at night.

At best, I hope to run the 82 tomorrow and have it read to fuel and fly when I go out to the field.
Old 10-17-2014, 11:50 AM
  #27918  
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Originally Posted by captinjohn
Telemaster 150, In the post about your surprises, was the fuel you ran in your testing, Glow fuel or Gas? If Glow fuel did you mix your own without nitro? What 2 stroke lube did you use. I have a 1.50 Saito I am about to run on CDI with glow fuel using stock carb. Got any tips on what to do? Thanks, Capt,n
All but the FA-100 were run on Morgan Cool Power 15%. The FA-100 was run on Morgan Omega 15%.

I'm so far out in the boonies I can't get straight methanol or I would mix my own & I would mix it 9:1 full synthetoic for 10% lube.

W/CDI you don't need the extra lube for insurance IMO. Others are of the same opinion.

Lubricating oil does not require a haz mat so if you added enough to an order from SIG to get free shipping, the oil cost would be just under $4 a gallon. Methanol is only $2-$3 a gallon if you can get bulk pumped into your own container.

Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 10-18-2014 at 12:11 PM.
Old 10-18-2014, 07:40 AM
  #27919  
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Originally Posted by Old Fart
Dave the 62 i owned went really hard on a 13x6apc do you think the eighty should be doing better? trouble is i never wrote any figures down back then or now much and the one's i had kept i can't find right now.I know it's hard to tell if you are'nt there to watch an engine run but that looks mighty rich,what do you think?

.
Now that you mention it, that is quite a bit of smoke for a Saito. The OS guys run them that way at the field. I don't trust 100% synthetic fuel enough for my engines.

Last edited by blw; 10-18-2014 at 10:54 AM.
Old 10-18-2014, 08:08 AM
  #27920  
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Hello everyone,

I recently purchased a Saito 120 special and was surprised to find it has dual glow plugs. I assume this helps top end power. Should I put two type F plugs in this or go with two different plugs? I've read somewhere that some people put a different plug up front for a better idle.

Thanks.
Old 10-18-2014, 12:36 PM
  #27921  
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It has been a theory that you can sort of create an advance curve by using two different range glow plugs. There is no way tell whether or not it worked. I think that's just some far out imagining. Two identical plugs would be fine. I ran my Saito 1.30 with four Fox Miracles and it ran like a Swiss watch.
Old 10-18-2014, 03:06 PM
  #27922  
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The dual plug FA-120 where supposed to have the inlet/outlet check valve pump & (bleed off) regulator to scavenge the crankcase & atomize the fuel for more power. The dual plugs where supposed to aid in more complete burn. Think FA-300TTDP (Dual Plug Pumped) in a single configuration. I had run across some propaganda about that engine a whils back but can't seem to locate it.

All that being said, I'm not sure it helps that much on a single. On something like the FA-450R3 & FA-200Ti where A/F imbalance between cylinders is a real significant issue, it helps. Then again, CDI helps even more.

If it where me, I would screw a dead plug in the front hole & try running a single plug. The 150s & 180s do just fine on a single plug.
Old 10-18-2014, 06:27 PM
  #27923  
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Originally Posted by SrTelemaster150
The dual plug FA-120 where supposed to have the inlet/outlet check valve pump & (bleed off) regulator to scavenge the crankcase & atomize the fuel for more power. The dual plugs where supposed to aid in more complete burn. Think FA-300TTDP (Dual Plug Pumped) in a single configuration. I had run across some propaganda about that engine a whils back but can't seem to locate it.

All that being said, I'm not sure it helps that much on a single. On something like the FA-450R3 & FA-200Ti where A/F imbalance between cylinders is a real significant issue, it helps. Then again, CDI helps even more.

If it where me, I would screw a dead plug in the front hole & try running a single plug. The 150s & 180s do just fine on a single plug.

Yes, my FA 120 has the inlet & outlet check valves. The instructions claim better excess oil drainage with the option of a pump system. I do not have the pump system but now want to get one. It's basically a bleed off valve that controls how much the fuel tank is pressurized much like how YS does it. I believe dual plugs does add a bit more rpm. I can post a picture of the performance table once I get home.

Attached is is what I found out about Saito's pump system (#4). Pretty cool IMO.

http://saito-engines.info/pumps.html
Old 10-18-2014, 07:23 PM
  #27924  
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Originally Posted by Quikturn
Yes, my FA 120 has the inlet & outlet check valves. The instructions claim better excess oil drainage with the option of a pump system. I do not have the pump system but now want to get one. It's basically a bleed off valve that controls how much the fuel tank is pressurized much like how YS does it. I believe dual plugs does add a bit more rpm. I can post a picture of the performance table once I get home.

Attached is is what I found out about Saito's pump system (#4). Pretty cool IMO.

http://saito-engines.info/pumps.html

If you are handy W/solder, you can make a bleed off W/an old spraybar because that's basically all it is, a spraybar attached to a "T". Instead of metering fuel in, it meters air out.
Old 10-19-2014, 01:44 AM
  #27925  
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Originally Posted by SrTelemaster150
All but the FA-100 were run on Morgan Cool Power 15%. The FA-100 was run on Morgan Omega 15%.

I'm so far out in the boonies I can't get straight methanol or I would mix my own & I would mix it 9:1 full synthetoic for 10% lube.

W/CDI you don't need the extra lube for insurance IMO. Others are of the same opinion.



Lubricating oil does not require a haz mat so if you added enough to an order from SIG to get free shipping, the oil cost would be just under $4 a gallon. Methanol is only $2-$3 a gallon if you can get bulk pumped into your own container.
There is so much excess crankcase oil in any half well tuned saito engine that saying 10% lube is cool for a cdi converted engine is like saying jeez why convert it in the first place.Castor smells good.

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