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Welcome to Club SAITO !

Old 04-13-2006, 11:04 PM
  #2776  
loughbd
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

I have a good tach, as a matter of fact I have three tachs. I very seldom "sling" props. A larger than normal "slug" of air doesn't get into the cylinder before the fuel does. The Air atomizes the fuel in the venturi and is well mixed long before it gets in the cylinder. It's the air that "sucks" the fuel in. If nothing but air or a ultra lean mixture went in like you sugest, the engine would more than likely quit.
Old 04-14-2006, 02:23 AM
  #2777  
William Robison
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Gary:

In my "Sauito Notes" there are some comments on the FA-300TTDP, the twin carb version, but nothing specific about the smaller twins.

Just be very careful to get the valves adjusted evenly, I recommend setting them to 0.0015" clearance.

With a new twin you're going to have some uneven running one side to the other, after it's run in you will be able to balance the cylinders by slight adjustment of the valves, but that's about three hours down the road. Until that time, just pretend it's a single and adjust the carb in the normal m manner.

I've puit you in lub Saito as number 265. Welcome to the aggregation.

Bill.

>>EDIT: Corrected member number. wr.

Old 04-14-2006, 02:37 AM
  #2778  
William Robison
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HDB:

If your FA-65 is an old one, it will not have as much valve lift as the later engines, it originally came with a very mild cam. If it's no more than roughly ten years old it should have the same cam grind (and valve lift) as the later engines, all from the 65 up to the FA-100 now have the same cam shaft. If your engine runs well don't worry about the cam, if you wish you can install the later cam and a new set of tappets when you change the bearings.

Compression? I suspect you didn't have the throttle open, none of the Saitos feel like they have any compression with the throttle shut. Common to most other four stroke model engines as well.

Send me your email address, I'll send you a copy of Saito Notes, valve adjustment is covered there. Basic method is getting the piston to the top of the compression stroke, and adjusting them to 0.0015" or 0.04 mm at that point.

You are now in Club Saito, your number is 266. The more the merrier.

Bill.

Old 04-14-2006, 11:22 AM
  #2779  
khodges
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Another thing that might make his .65 feel like there's no compression is a "dry" cylinder. If it hasn't been run, or hasn't been run in a while, theere may not be enough residual oil around the rings to help the compression seal. I've noticed that when one of my Saitos sits for a while, it feels the same way; after I turn it over a few times, or run it, the compression gets much better.

While I'm on the subject of Saitos , an update and couple of questions on my new 1.00. I've got a total of 5 12 oz. tanks through it now, total run time about 1-1/4 hours. The last two have been with a 15-8 prop, and the needles reset to where they were out of the box. It is running much smoother, and I treied peaking it out yesterday. The most rpm I can get with the 15-8 is about 8400, and the needle is about 2-1/4 turns out when it peaks, so i richen it to about 3 turns or so, rpms about 8250, and a visible smoke from the exhaust, but not overly so. I leaned the low end down to about 3-1/4 turns, and I can get a reliable idle (it will run as long as I leave it, with no splutter or stall) at about 2150. The transition throughout the throttle range is good, whether I goose it quickly or gradually, with just a tiny stumble coming off idle (it's a rich stumble, there's more smoke for a second). I am happy with the response, but have two questions:

1- All the rest of my Saitos have much less turns out on both needles (Usually around 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 on the high end, and about 2 on the low end) Why the big difference? Is it just the amount of run time on the engine compared to the others?

2- Top rpm--I'd like to get the engine at WOT to turn in the mid- 9's. I've already found that a 14-6 is too small (turns way over 10K), and the 15-8 is appearing to be a bit much. Would a 14-8 or a 15-6 be the better one to try? I really don't care about more speed, what I'd like is better vertical. I use the MA-K series, I don't care for APC props, but I occasionally use Zingers
Old 04-14-2006, 11:46 AM
  #2780  
HDB
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William, Thanks for the info -would really appreciate any data that you have. I believe that the motor is between 6 and 8 years old. I was talking with a pilot here today and he said that he has had the same problem and that it was a stuck valve? The carburator is also stuck!!! It looks like the guy that built the cub ran the motor and didn't do any type of after run oil or anything to preserve it.
Old 04-14-2006, 12:13 PM
  #2781  
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Thanks for the info - I have to get the carb loosened up and then will put it on the test bench and see if it will fire. May be looking for more words of wisdom!
Old 04-14-2006, 01:24 PM
  #2782  
William Robison
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KH:

… the rest of my Saitos have much less turns out on both needles Why the big difference?
All the “Mid block” Saitos use very similar carbs, the bigger engine using the same needle valve just needs it opened further to get enough fuel. Even so one engine and fuel might be right at 3 turns, the next at 4 turns open.

Sounds like the 15x6 prop might be the right one for you. The 14x8 would probably load the engine well, but the lower pitch and larger prop disc area will do a better job at lower air speed. If you want to go fast then the 8” pitch is better.

I also prefer to avoid APC props. They might work better, but they look a LOT worse. And they will cut you up a lot worse than most other brands if you get a little careless. Our planes are normally so greatly overpowered we just don’t need that extra little bit of efficiency in sport flying.
----------------------------------
HDB:

Edit your post, REMOVE YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS. Posting it in the open is a big invitation for spam. I have it recorded now, I’ll send you Saito Note and another file concerning timing the cams on the even fire twins.
-----------------------------------
BruceL:

Your engine’s quick response could be affected by using wooden props – they have less inertia and tend to spool up faster than the composites.

Bill.

>>EDIT: Error in prop pitch corrected. Should have said 15x6. wr.
Old 04-14-2006, 01:46 PM
  #2783  
rlmcnii
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

KHodges,
I am dying to know: Did you actually OPEN (i.e., enrichen the mixture) your HS needle to get the engine to run at wide-open-throttle???? And then slowly CLOSE (i.e., lean the mixture) to peak RPMs at WOT??? Whatever you did, it is good that it worked.
Do you think if you put a smaller prop on the engine, to allow highr peak RPMs, it may be necessary to RETUNE (i.e., open) the HS needle a bit to provide a little more fuel flow to support the higher RPMs? Please let us know.
Thanks, rlmcnii
Old 04-14-2006, 02:04 PM
  #2784  
HDB
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Bill, Thanks again - I have changed the prop to a 12x6 and the 65 is peaking at about 9200, then reduced to about 8900 for some richness. Also, I did go to a wooden prop and I agree with you about the others doing more damage - I spent about 6 hours in the emergency room three years ago getting two fingers repaired ! Believe me, I am a lot more careful now.
Old 04-14-2006, 04:01 PM
  #2785  
loughbd
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So now I have to go back down and use a Master Airscrew glass filled nylon prop. Be right back
Old 04-14-2006, 04:19 PM
  #2786  
William Robison
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KH:

Just correcfted an error in my earlier post, I should have said 15x6 prop instead of 15x4. Post is right now.

Sorry.

Bill.
Old 04-14-2006, 04:35 PM
  #2787  
loughbd
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Back again half hour later.

Just ran my FA45 again. This time with an APC 11x6 and a Master Airknife glass filled 11x7. The results were exactly the same. The lag time was so short as to be insignificant. This time I went from leaned out to 1/2 turn rich and back as quickly as I could. Engine responded almost instanly. I also ran an FA30 that I had sitting on the bench. Used a Zinger 10x6 wood and a Master Airknife 10x6 GF. Same results. Almost instant response.
Old 04-14-2006, 04:48 PM
  #2788  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Bruce, yours are obviously equipped with the Higher Speed High Speed needles.
Old 04-14-2006, 05:06 PM
  #2789  
loughbd
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THAT'S IT's. I forgot to mention that on every box of every Saito I have from the 80T's I bought in 1981 to the lastest FA 91 I bought a couple of years ago it says on the box. "This engine is equiped with the Higher Speed high speed needle valve. They are only installed on engines purchased by B.D. Loughridge". I never noticed it before but it says so right on the Box. Thanks Torque Wrench for pointing that out.

Does anyone want to buy some of these rare engines. I have over 30 saitos with these needles.
Old 04-14-2006, 05:06 PM
  #2790  
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Old 04-14-2006, 05:12 PM
  #2791  
William Robison
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

Dave:

Those needles you mentioned - aren't they the ones we called "Fast Adjustment Response Type?" Or for short, simply FART?

It seems I've also heard that eating a large quantity of beans gives quicker FART response.

Haw.

Bill.
Old 04-14-2006, 05:45 PM
  #2792  
loughbd
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Gee, since I bought many of my engine over 25 years ago, they must have OLD FART needles.
Old 04-14-2006, 06:32 PM
  #2793  
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Someone explained props to me like this: Nylon props are fine for other four strokes but Saitos like wood. Why? A nylon prop is strong, very strong, one of the contributing factors to their efficiency. Wood props have a tendency to break easily. Imagine the stresses loaded upon your crankshaft when you bump the prop on landing, or taxing. I know, everyone but me is perfect and has never bumped on landing so you are not worried about it. You could be one of those who does occasionally dink it and have never had a problem with a nylon prop and crank bending, good for you. It seems to me that replacing a commodity, propeller, is much cheaper than crank and bearings. Cranks run from $26.96 to $239.99, bearings are extra. You should replace your prop after a dink anyway.
Old 04-14-2006, 06:49 PM
  #2794  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

I'm in total agreement, solafien. Also, wooden props have less mass and will spool up faster. There are other reasons that I like wood props. There are many more reasons for using wood props, but then that would be hijacking the thread away from Saito engines.

I'm going to attempt a rebuild of a Saito 120. It's the 'old' heavy style. I'm putting on a new crankcase. That should make it somewhat lighter. I wonder if anyone has any experience with the cam, i.e., is it the old style cam or a newer high-lift type?

Thanks,

Bob
Old 04-14-2006, 07:00 PM
  #2795  
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !

hi guys, anyone here have experience with slimline pitts, i have a new saito 180 and i purchased a inverted soimline and it has a extra gasket and they dont go into detail about it and i was wandering it it goes on the inside of the screw plate or the outside next to the head as in the pic?(i think on the outside but id like to make sure).

thanks
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Old 04-14-2006, 07:02 PM
  #2796  
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I just pulled apart a Saito .30 open rocker engine for overhaul. One thing that I found unique, to all my other Saito engines anyway, is that the vent nipple is on the side of the cam housing instead of in the back plate.

And, a testament to the "glue power" of old castor oil residue: the lifters were stuck in the bores. I tapped them out with a hammer and punch. One of the lifters took the brass bush with it! [X(]
Old 04-14-2006, 07:02 PM
  #2797  
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well the pic shows the gasket you dont need to see but the one im talking about you can barley see it on the left side of the plate
Old 04-14-2006, 07:56 PM
  #2798  
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Bill, I got two things mixed up! I was getting info as to why the Saito 65 had no compression, etc and then when I got back from the field this morning, after having put a new plane in the air, running an Enya 60, I put that on this forum!! The 65 is still here on the table and I put a bunch of Marvel oil in all access ports and hope it will loosen up the valves. Will put it on the test stand tomorrow and see what happens. Thanks for your help.
Old 04-14-2006, 09:12 PM
  #2799  
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Both my open rocker thirties have the breather in the middle of the back plate. I have the early version with the weird little rockers on the long spindly supports and the newer version with the modern rockers
Old 04-15-2006, 12:26 AM
  #2800  
khodges
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Default RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !


ORIGINAL: rlmcnii

KHodges,
I am dying to know: Did you actually OPEN (i.e., enrichen the mixture) your HS needle to get the engine to run at wide-open-throttle???? And then slowly CLOSE (i.e., lean the mixture) to peak RPMs at WOT??? Whatever you did, it is good that it worked.
Do you think if you put a smaller prop on the engine, to allow highr peak RPMs, it may be necessary to RETUNE (i.e., open) the HS needle a bit to provide a little more fuel flow to support the higher RPMs? Please let us know.
Thanks, rlmcnii
I had leaned the needle earlier, thinking that because my 5 other Saitos all ran with less turns on the needle the 1.00 should also. One thing I didn't mention in my last post. When I first fired the Saito up yesterday (tank #4) with the 15-8 on its first run, I had opened the throttle to see what the top end was like, and....POW, it backfired once and the heavy prop nut and heavy washer went flying straight ahead into the fence 25 feet away, and the prop took off like a Frisbee for about 20 feet to the right. First time in 3 years of flying that I've ever kicked a prop, hope it's the last; scared the crap out of me, I was standing about five feet from the plane, ahead and to the left of where the nut went.

Soooo....... I richened the top end to about 3-1/2 turns and started over. I'd like to think that the backfire is what did it; after that episode it's been running great. Sort of like when you feel like you're gonna puke....then you fart real big and suddenly you feel better I did lean it out a bit more after that to get max rpm, then added a little to ensure a bit rich.

I'm sure I'll have to retune the top end a little when I try the new prop. Looks like a 15-6 is what it will be.

Bill R----You did say 15-6, no need to correct your correction. Thanks much for your supreme Saito wisdom.

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