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Old 12-17-2014, 03:53 PM
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now back to the carb.. I just got done cleaning it and now am waiting on my parts.. but I have just a couple of questions..

O rings.. How many? I am counting the little tiny one on the spray bar and the one on the intake where it goes into the back of the engine. so I count 2? seems to me there should be one between the throttle arm and the barrel but I am probably wrong

and as far as the spray bar it threads into the carb housing, there is a hole up by the o ring to the left of the flange.. I assume that hole has to line up where the fuel nipple threads in so that the carb can receive fuel? Correct?

OK.. thats it for now.. Thanks for all the help!
Old 12-17-2014, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Cougar429
...With engines stored successfully for 20 years or more with my stock 50/50 mix of ARO and Air Tool Oil..
I'm still fairly new in getting into all things Glow/Fuel (mostly electric & gliders so far), and I'm interested in learning more about 'after run oil'.

What sort of brew do you guys make up? Automatic Transmission Fluid & Air Tool oil? Or some other magic brew?

And how often/how much of this do you put into the engine? After every flying session? More if it's not going to me flown for a while between sessions?

And how do you get it in there? Syringe through the carby and a couple of flips on the prop etc.?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'd like to learn how to look after my I/C's and help prevent the Nitro from creating a rust bucket

BJ
Old 12-17-2014, 04:30 PM
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There is also an O-ring where the intake pipe enters the carb. The inlet hole in the spraybar can go anywhere, the spraybar has a groove around it for fuel flow. The spraybar is pressed into the carb body from inside. Even though the spraybar is grooved, I personally line the hole up anyway. Here is your spraybar in the background in this picture.
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Old 12-17-2014, 05:48 PM
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Penetrating oil may not soften the crud enough as it has been baked on with hot exhaust flow. Other than fuel or straight methanol and trying to work it free, the best I have ever used is a simple hot soak in glycol, (anti-freeze). You would be surprised at how that removes just about every bit of baked on stuff. It also should not damage any parts or seals. The rear cover at least has to be removed and I would advise the same for the muffler and pipe to allow the glycol access to the ports. Just flush the entire engine with warm water, then dry immediately and give it a good ARO treatment.

WARNING: Make sure the piston is at the bottom if you push down on the valve. If too aggressive or too far you can damage or bend the valve against the top of the piston.

Bill, when you spin the engine, do you see both the intake and exhaust valves in action? From your statements not sure if that is the case, nor how much lift you get. If you have both valves and rockers in the same closed position and low or no movement on either the only reason I can think of is a cam lobe is wiped. Not too common as a lack of lube in that area would also affect the other lobe as well, the front bearing and likely show up in the rocker area. If that turns out to be true you need to replace both the cam and lifters as the surfaces in contact will suffer together.

I wish I could help with the step by step and I seem to remember there being a complete teardown in steps years ago, but I did find this representation with a Saito as an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdunzuVTYmk

Last edited by Cougar429; 12-17-2014 at 05:59 PM.
Old 12-17-2014, 10:10 PM
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Well wounded if you guys missed me? Hope all ya'll had a good thanks giving. Just wont'ed to wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and hope you all will get a new Satio for Christmas.
Old 12-17-2014, 11:17 PM
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Old Saito's are good too

BJ
Old 12-18-2014, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by BJ64
I'm still fairly new in getting into all things Glow/Fuel (mostly electric & gliders so far), and I'm interested in learning more about 'after run oil'.

What sort of brew do you guys make up? Automatic Transmission Fluid & Air Tool oil? Or some other magic brew?

And how often/how much of this do you put into the engine? After every flying session? More if it's not going to me flown for a while between sessions?

And how do you get it in there? Syringe through the carby and a couple of flips on the prop etc.?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'd like to learn how to look after my I/C's and help prevent the Nitro from creating a rust bucket

BJ

I just run the engine dry, disconnect the fuel lines, suck the fuel out of the fuel tank, and shoot ATF fluid into the glow plug hole and on 4 strokes through the nipple on the back or bottom of the engine.. can't think of the term.. For lack of the official term I call it the PCV valve because that is basically what it is. Then I rotate the prop a few times by hand.. ATF is a whole bunch cheaper and according to Bill Robison, it is the perfect after run oil.
Old 12-18-2014, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Lowen
I just run the engine dry, disconnect the fuel lines, suck the fuel out of the fuel tank, and shoot ATF fluid into the glow plug hole and on 4 strokes through the nipple on the back or bottom of the engine.. can't think of the term.. For lack of the official term I call it the PCV valve because that is basically what it is. Then I rotate the prop a few times by hand.. ATF is a whole bunch cheaper and according to Bill Robison, it is the perfect after run oil.
I agree! this works well, also Marvels Mistry Oil works well, But! Transmission oil is the less $. If you fly a lot, don't even worry about it, just when you store the engine for the winter or just not going to fly for a beet. Hay Oldfart, what you up to? I almost got the year made without Cutting, Braking, and Stabbing my self. Hope next year is just as good! LOL...... =-)
Old 12-18-2014, 06:37 AM
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As mentioned before, my own ARO is a 50/50 mix of ATF and Air Tool Oil, (basically turbine oil). Been using this for 30 years now. Some fuels with synthetic lube seem to work best in preventing corrosion, but I agree with Duke Fox that at least some should be our tried and true castor. Much better at maintaining lube properties under the high temps 4-strokes are known for and any lean run or low airflow, (re. bad cowl installation) where synthetics burn off too quickly to do the job.

Bill, that fitting on the back or bottom is the Case Vent, used to balance the volume change as the piston travels up and down and to allow blow by gasses, the excess lube and other contaminants to clear. One piece of advise on that; If you attach a hose try and keep it as short and/or as large as possible to prevent negative pressure from reingesting any crud before it makes it out the end.
Old 12-18-2014, 06:43 AM
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If you are inclined, you could also remove the engine from the plane and give it a nice hot antifreeze bath, not every flight mind you.. maybe once a year. Removes all the crud and burned oil build up, Makes them look brand new.. Just get an old crock pot, fill it up with aluminum safe antifreeze, I use prestone, set the crock pot on low and let it go overnight. I actually do this in my kitchen ( single guy, no woman telling me what to do. scary.. I know, but nice) no fumes or nothing.. At first I was afraid I was going to stink up my house but surprisingly.. there were no fumes.
Old 12-18-2014, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by slamn sammy
Well wounded if you guys missed me? Hope all ya'll had a good thanks giving. Just wont'ed to wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and hope you all will get a new Satio for Christmas.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too, Sammy. I did give myself a (slightly) used Saito 91S for Christmas. I will test it out in a couple of weeks, weather pemitting.
Old 12-18-2014, 06:47 AM
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"One piece of advise on that; If you attach a hose try and keep it as short and/or as large as possible to prevent negative pressure from reingesting any crud before it makes it out the end."

That's a good point, I never thought about it, but it makes sense. I think a couple of my applications have the tube fairly long. I will add that to my Winter To Do list.
Old 12-18-2014, 09:33 AM
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Miss a day, miss a lot. This thread could go days with one post, or one day with two pages of posts. LOL

If you are using an electric starter, be advised Saitos can sometimes idle below the spin RPM of a healthy hand unit and are frequently so quiet you may not know when they are self-sustaining. Both my 100's are like that.
I found this to be quite true. Both my 100 and FG-11 are like this. You dont think its running until you pull the starter off. On warm days though, neither engine needs a starter, the both flip start after one or two turns.
Old 12-18-2014, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Lowen
...For lack of the official term I call it the PCV valve...
I'll go with "crankcase breather"...

Originally Posted by slamn sammy
...I almost got the year made without Cutting, Braking, and Stabbing my self..
Lemme see... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... 6, 7, 8, 9... 9 7/8...

Yep, same number of fingers as I started the year with... All good (touching plenty of wood here. The 'tree' type - I know it means something else in 'Merican vernacular'... )

Originally Posted by Cougar429
As mentioned before, my own ARO is a 50/50 mix of ATF and Air Tool Oil, (basically turbine oil). ...
Thanks for the info.

Turbine oil tends to be a bit on the expensive side down here, but then again I guess you don't use all that much.

And you reckon to toss in a bit of Castor as well? Any recommendation how much per litre of ARO at 50:50 ATF:Air Tool/Turbine Oil?

Originally Posted by Bill Lowen
..I actually do this in my kitchen ( single guy, no woman telling me what to do. scary.. I know, but nice) no fumes or nothing.. At first I was afraid I was going to stink up my house but surprisingly.. there were no fumes.
Reminds me of an old joke where the punchline is the Doctor saying "Well Madam, first we'll work on your hearing... then you sense of smell" LoL

BJ

Last edited by BJ64; 12-18-2014 at 05:50 PM.
Old 12-18-2014, 06:21 PM
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BJ64, go to your local industrial or tool vendor and grab a bottle of air tool oil. Much cheaper in smaller quantities, (than the min 1 qt can for turbine oil). I find one bottle each of ATF and ATO will last me longer than can remember. You only use a few drops each application.

I too have the same number of fingers and toes at the end of the year. Can't say the same for brain cells....................wait a minute, what were we talking about again?
Old 12-19-2014, 02:53 AM
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LoL

Something about Air Turbines and the Australian Tax Office I think?

But more seriously - thanks for the info. I'll see if I can get a litre each of ATF and ATO - that should last me a while by the sounds of it.

Should I give that mix a dose of Castor Oil as well?

BJ
Old 12-19-2014, 04:59 AM
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Or, you could run down to your local NAPA or other Auto Parts place and grab a 12oz aerosol can of Fogging Oil, it will last about a year if you don't have a lot of engines. I like the fact that when it is injected into the vent tube it foams up goes everywhere inside the engine. All the recommendations seem to work. On an Enya I remove the carb bracket screw and inject it there. There is a serious rust problem in the cam box on the Enyas.
Old 12-19-2014, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by hsukaria
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too, Sammy. I did give myself a (slightly) used Saito 91S for Christmas. I will test it out in a couple of weeks, weather pemitting.
Thank You there hsukaria. Me too! Well, l did not a Satio but l did get a 3D .32 size X-cell helicopter with a Air Woof body. (WONDER HOW A SATIO .50 WOULD FLY IT??) Anybody running a four cycle in Helicopters? Marry Christmas to all and to all GOOD FLYING, :-)
Old 12-19-2014, 05:54 AM
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Bill, if you're worried about getting in over your head, ship the engine to me and I'll wring it out and pay for shipping it back. Several here can vouch for my honesty.
Old 12-19-2014, 06:32 AM
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Sammy, was a full size heli pilot and AME in my last career and now fly electric helis. Just got my first fuel burning machine a few weeks ago as a 46 2-stroke basket case to resurrect, so no personal experience so far. Some of the larger scale machines are now running 4-stroke, gas I believe.

The difference in power/weight magnify the smaller you get. For an example, the OS 50 Hyper pumps out close to 2 HP when wide open. A comparable 4-stroke would be so large, and with I suspect even more demanding cooling requirements, that it would be so heavy it would never lift. The other problem is the engine would need to run at the top of the RPM band, (or beyond!) to stay at the power peak and give rapid enough throttle response. Some 4-strokes seem to have a much higher RPM top end, but pushing any of my Saitos beyond 9500-9600 makes me nervous. Want them to far outlast any of the aircraft they bolt into and that's not usually a recipe for reliability.

Last edited by Cougar429; 12-19-2014 at 06:35 AM.
Old 12-19-2014, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
Bill, if you're worried about getting in over your head, ship the engine to me and I'll wring it out and pay for shipping it back. Several here can vouch for my honesty.
That is a great offer but what i would rather do is just bring it to you and you could supervise my work. The trouble with that is Virginia is quite a drive from Indiana. Nothing against you or anybody else, I just want to learn how to work on these 4 stokes myself..I can rebuild an automotive engine so with a little practice and reading, I should be able to get proficient working on these 4 strokes.. We have a club meeting this weekend and we have a few guys who are Saito vets, probably take it with me and get some thoughts from those guys, at the very least they could probably take a look and see if everything looks OK.. really the only thing I am worried about at this point is if I disturbed the timing of the engine.. I mentioned before that the engine was spun with the electric starter with the exhaust valve closed..meaning only the intake and piston rotated because the exhaust pushrod was not seated correctly on the tappet.. I corrected that and adjusted the valves.. Everything is moving as it should be when I rotate the prop now.. just thinking I disturbed TDC when the engine was spun with the exhaust valve not moving.. Let me add that nothing is hung up inside the engine.. everything is moving freely

Anyway thanks for the generous offer Hobbsy! I truly appreciate it.. and this does not mean you are off the hook yet my friend.. or anybody else around here.. I will probably still be asking questions so don't be running off.

Hope everybody has a wonderful holiday this year!

Bill
Old 12-19-2014, 08:22 AM
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Just keep firing those questions, different guys here know different stuff. Pictures are great too.
Old 12-19-2014, 08:30 AM
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Hobbsy, Merry Christmas to All of You and Yours and to All a Good Flight.

Sincerely, Richard
Old 12-19-2014, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Lowen
That is a great offer but what i would rather do is just bring it to you and you could supervise my work. The trouble with that is Virginia is quite a drive from Indiana. Nothing against you or anybody else, I just want to learn how to work on these 4 stokes myself..I can rebuild an automotive engine so with a little practice and reading, I should be able to get proficient working on these 4 strokes.. We have a club meeting this weekend and we have a few guys who are Saito vets, probably take it with me and get some thoughts from those guys, at the very least they could probably take a look and see if everything looks OK.. really the only thing I am worried about at this point is if I disturbed the timing of the engine.. I mentioned before that the engine was spun with the electric starter with the exhaust valve closed..meaning only the intake and piston rotated because the exhaust pushrod was not seated correctly on the tappet.. I corrected that and adjusted the valves.. Everything is moving as it should be when I rotate the prop now.. just thinking I disturbed TDC when the engine was spun with the exhaust valve not moving.. Let me add that nothing is hung up inside the engine.. everything is moving freely

Anyway thanks for the generous offer Hobbsy! I truly appreciate it.. and this does not mean you are off the hook yet my friend.. or anybody else around here.. I will probably still be asking questions so don't be running off.

Hope everybody has a wonderful holiday this year!

Bill

If you can rebuild the big one, these little ones are a cake walk. Just keep a magnetic try under it when you start to disassemble to catch the tiny parts that will fall off. I have rebuilt the GK 100 and a Magnum 91, and both run superb.
Old 12-19-2014, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Lowen
That is a great offer but what i would rather do is just bring it to you and you could supervise my work. The trouble with that is Virginia is quite a drive from Indiana. Nothing against you or anybody else, I just want to learn how to work on these 4 stokes myself..I can rebuild an automotive engine so with a little practice and reading, I should be able to get proficient working on these 4 strokes.. We have a club meeting this weekend and we have a few guys who are Saito vets, probably take it with me and get some thoughts from those guys, at the very least they could probably take a look and see if everything looks OK.. really the only thing I am worried about at this point is if I disturbed the timing of the engine.. I mentioned before that the engine was spun with the electric starter with the exhaust valve closed..meaning only the intake and piston rotated because the exhaust pushrod was not seated correctly on the tappet.. I corrected that and adjusted the valves.. Everything is moving as it should be when I rotate the prop now.. just thinking I disturbed TDC when the engine was spun with the exhaust valve not moving.. Let me add that nothing is hung up inside the engine.. everything is moving freely

Anyway thanks for the generous offer Hobbsy! I truly appreciate it.. and this does not mean you are off the hook yet my friend.. or anybody else around here.. I will probably still be asking questions so don't be running off.

Hope everybody has a wonderful holiday this year!

Bill
Bill, if the exhaust pushrod was not seated right but still moving freely, then there should be no damage to the engine when you spun it with the starter. The cam gear will not jump off timing unless somebody took the engine apart and reassembled it wrong, or there is major damage to the cam gear.

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