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Old 08-04-2015, 04:36 AM
  #29801  
Rudolph Hart
 
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Originally Posted by spaceworm View Post
My grandfather raced home built wood hydroplanes fitted with hopped up Evinrude 22 hp outboards in his youth. Unless they ran long bolts and plates across the horizontally opposed cylinders, they would blow the cylinders off the case. He never told me what they ran the engines on. Maybe homebrew corn squeezings? Sorry I even suggested that Gramps, you were my best friend growing up and taught me more than you ever knew. He also rode a Henderson MC. He lived to be 97!
Well he's lucky he never had me as a grandson,nice story mate.

Acdc those three words are easily arranged.
Old 08-05-2015, 11:57 AM
  #29802  
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Well. I managed 5 flights on the Saito 65 last night. I got the low end dialed in on the second. Those were my first flights with a Saito 4 stroke so does that make me an official member of Club Saito now?

This engine is definitely a keeper. What a sweet running engine. I have heard the knock on the .65 was the power to weight ratio was not very good, but mounted on a .40 size high wing and a 13x8 prop, it had plenty of power and nice vertical. I cant wait to fly it again. Thanks again for the help guys!
Old 08-05-2015, 01:33 PM
  #29803  
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Originally Posted by acdii View Post
Tried thinking of a way to get jug, picasso and nipple into a sentence, but just couldnt figure one out.
I think you just did, What an Image.
Old 08-05-2015, 02:22 PM
  #29804  
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Grumble. Last night sucked. Was flying my Cub with the Saito 100. It was running great, but I got attacked by those damned blood thirsty mosquitoes, and was trying to land so I could pack up and get away from them, and just as I was about to touch down, one bit me and I released the stick which caused the Cub to bounce 3 feet in the air, and I ran out of runway so throttled up, damned engine quit and into the corn it went. Snapped off both wings, so now I have to rebuild the cabin walls and leading edge of one wing. GRRR. Why would the engine quit when I pick the tail up at idle? I notice it did that twice on me. I dont know why the engine quit though when I firewalled it from idle. It could have been loaded up, maybe my LSN is still a bit rich.
Old 08-05-2015, 02:33 PM
  #29805  
SrTelemaster150
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My FA-115 just shipped from Advantage Hobby this afternoon. It will be housed in the cowl of my 1/5 scale Wingsmaker J-3 Cub. Running on 15% nitro glow fuel W/CDI lighting it off, it should have ample power for a impressive vertical when I throttle up.
Old 08-05-2015, 02:51 PM
  #29806  
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Originally Posted by acdii View Post
Grumble. Last night sucked. Was flying my Cub with the Saito 100. It was running great, but I got attacked by those damned blood thirsty mosquitoes,.. Why would the engine quit when I pick the tail up at idle? I notice it did that twice on me.....
Use some (more) castor in the fuel mix, the oil coating on your skin keeps the mosquitoes away.

A flame out with the tail high could be caused by the pickup line not being flexible enough to follow the fuel in the front of the tank with a partial tank. It may have been sucking air. Flame out with nose high could be the clunk stuck in the front corner of the tank, and then sucking air as the fuel is in the lower part of the vertical tank. However, it is very unlikely both conditions could exist on the same flight. Good luck finding out the real causes.

Sincerely, Richard
Old 08-05-2015, 06:40 PM
  #29807  
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Originally Posted by spaceworm View Post
Use some (more) castor in the fuel mix, the oil coating on your skin keeps the mosquitoes away.

A flame out with the tail high could be caused by the pickup line not being flexible enough to follow the fuel in the front of the tank with a partial tank. It may have been sucking air. Flame out with nose high could be the clunk stuck in the front corner of the tank, and then sucking air as the fuel is in the lower part of the vertical tank. However, it is very unlikely both conditions could exist on the same flight. Good luck finding out the real causes.

Sincerely, Richard
Definitely not a clunk issue, tank was full and the plane was on the ground. I picked up the tail to move the plane and twice had the engine quit. In flight the engine was running fine, it was only when I was landing, and had throttled down to idle, and it was idling for at least 30 or more seconds while attempting to land, then having to throttle up quickly for a go around, and that is when it quit. So two issues here and most likely just a matter of tuning. Sounds like the LSN is still a bit out of whack. The LSN has been a problem with this engine, the original owner couldnt even get it running, and after I reset the needle to about factory, it fired up and ran good. I switched back to Wildcat and it is running much better. Once I get the plane repaired I will fiddle with it a bit more until I am satisfied it will no longer quit after a long idle.
Old 08-05-2015, 07:12 PM
  #29808  
blw
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A couple of messages had to be sacrificed so we can keep a low profile here. Sorry guys, but somebody would have complained. And I agreed with y'all too. Sheesh.
Old 08-05-2015, 07:13 PM
  #29809  
Jim Branaum
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Originally Posted by acdii View Post
Definitely not a clunk issue, tank was full and the plane was on the ground. I picked up the tail to move the plane and twice had the engine quit. In flight the engine was running fine, it was only when I was landing, and had throttled down to idle, and it was idling for at least 30 or more seconds while attempting to land, then having to throttle up quickly for a go around, and that is when it quit. So two issues here and most likely just a matter of tuning. Sounds like the LSN is still a bit out of whack. The LSN has been a problem with this engine, the original owner couldnt even get it running, and after I reset the needle to about factory, it fired up and ran good. I switched back to Wildcat and it is running much better. Once I get the plane repaired I will fiddle with it a bit more until I am satisfied it will no longer quit after a long idle.
I learned how to tune engines from George Aldrich. When you get ready to play with this one, do so with the tail propped up in the flying position and the fuel tank 1/2 full. Since it is a 4 stroke, and a Saito at that, the procedures are just a bit different from what he taught me to use on 2 strokes. Get the engine running at idle, and take the glow off. If there is a substantial drop in RPM, you are too rich. What you want is to just barely be able to hear a RPM change. To check and see if it is good when you reach that point, let it idle for 5 minutes, hold the aircraft solidly, and hammer the throttle. All you should see is the engine spool up with a lot of smoke as it burns out the loaded up oil retained at idle. If you don't see smoke you are probably a touch too lean. A modification I have used is to make sure I see a tiny bit of smoke at idle but that is because my throttle only has 2 positions - idle and WOT. I really don't like it coughing and choking on the way up after a 1/2 circuit at idle and the approach - a la cold engine. I want it all and RIGHT NOW. So I test carefully before committing the engine to flying. Good luck.
Old 08-06-2015, 04:13 AM
  #29810  
Cougar429
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Sorry to hear of your corn "Encounter". Luckily this year the farmer decided to plant beans around the field again.

If you quit in any position when throttling up after prolonged idle you look at the behavior to tell which is the problem. If it stumbles, then picks up you are a tad rich. If it just cuts out you are a touch lean.

Some seem bent on adding onboard glow to tame a misbehaving engine. I have NEVER needed one and don't believe it's necessary if the design and manufacture is right and set up correctly.

I added the design and manufacture qualifier since some engines simply work only as paperweights or display models. Far as I'm going with that.........

Having said that, the fuel tank level, as well as the type and condition of the glow plug can make a difference. Just pulled my Fox Eagle IV powered F-15 from where it has been sitting on the wall and fired it up for the first time in far too long. Plug that worked fine before storage simply would not run with heat removed. New plug worked perfectly. Same with an OS 91 Surpass fit into the Harvard. When I dragged it to the field earlier this season I simply could not get it to idle, regardless of what I did. Quickest fix was to bolt in the spare engine as nothing I found once it was pulled pointed to a fault.

This is just one reason I really prefer Saitos. Not only rock solid reliable, problems seem relatively easy to diagnose and fix.

Jim covered what is likely the best set up procedure in the previous post.

Last edited by Cougar429; 08-06-2015 at 04:24 AM.
Old 08-06-2015, 05:38 AM
  #29811  
Rudolph Hart
 
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Originally Posted by blw View Post
A couple of messages had to be sacrificed so we can keep a low profile here. Sorry guys, but somebody would have complained. And I agreed with y'all too. Sheesh.
The burden of being a responsiblemoderator barry,luckily we don't share it,sorry.

Richard after you wrote something that funny you had people doubled over and smashing their faces into the keyboard,i had tears running down my cheeks.

Sr i'll bet you a pound to a dollar my 115 sounds better than your's on ignition
Old 08-06-2015, 05:34 PM
  #29812  
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I think the problem, now that I go over it in my mind, is the idle was too low. I have a 14x8 prop on it, and it comes it too hot, doesn't want to land, so I have the idle as low as I can get it. With a 15x8 Evolution prop it will slow down without having the idle down so low. I did do the tuning as mentioned above, but it was in a different plane, and with different fuel. I switched to SIG and screwed up the tune, so switched back to Wildcat and have to retune it now. After I fix the Cub though.
Old 08-07-2015, 05:43 AM
  #29813  
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Bill, did you find this O-ring behind the throttle lever on the .65, thanks.

Woops, I see that Cougar 429 fixed you up.
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Last edited by Hobbsy; 08-09-2015 at 03:34 AM.
Old 08-07-2015, 06:03 AM
  #29814  
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Originally Posted by blw View Post
A couple of messages had to be sacrificed so we can keep a low profile here. Sorry guys, but somebody would have complained. And I agreed with y'all too. Sheesh.

Boy, I hope they were some of mine that had to be removed!

Sincerely, Richard
Old 08-07-2015, 07:50 AM
  #29815  
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C429, I know this is a Saito thread but I just inherited a 10 minute old OS Surpass .91, (non pump) from my cousin who is moving to Fla and got rid of everything including an LT 25 with an OS LA 25. Nice gifts. No Saito's.
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Old 08-08-2015, 07:24 AM
  #29816  
WMB
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Originally Posted by Bill Lowen View Post
Well. I managed 5 flights on the Saito 65 last night. I got the low end dialed in on the second. Those were my first flights with a Saito 4 stroke so does that make me an official member of Club Saito now?

This engine is definitely a keeper. What a sweet running engine. I have heard the knock on the .65 was the power to weight ratio was not very good, but mounted on a .40 size high wing and a 13x8 prop, it had plenty of power and nice vertical. I cant wait to fly it again. Thanks again for the help guys!
I am a big fan of the 65. Smooth, easy too tune, stays in tune. Slightly heavy, but I think that helps smooth the firing impulses a bit. I have found the APC 13x6 to be great for my 4*40, fast enough with outta sight vertical. The manual shows a 14x6 acceptable, that is what I run on the Saito 82. I will try it on the 65.
Old 08-08-2015, 10:55 AM
  #29817  
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I think the 65 is what I will be looking for next. The OS 70 on my Something extra will not idle well. It will idle for a while, then hammer, reverse direction and quit. Damn near blew the plane off the run up stand. What is puzzling is it will transition to WOT beautifully, and when it idles it is smooth, then it goe putt, putt, HAMMER HAMMER quit. I also found the throttle arm is coming loose, had to tighten it up twice now. Had to pinch the line to kill it when trying to adjust it cause it was racing at half throttle. I was going to do the maiden today, as long as the idle was above 3K it ran fine without quiting, so figured to land, just kill it and dead it in once on final. However, my radio check failed, so out comes the RX.
Old 08-08-2015, 11:02 AM
  #29818  
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Originally Posted by Jim Branaum View Post
I learned how to tune engines from George Aldrich. When you get ready to play with this one, do so with the tail propped up in the flying position and the fuel tank 1/2 full. Since it is a 4 stroke, and a Saito at that, the procedures are just a bit different from what he taught me to use on 2 strokes. Get the engine running at idle, and take the glow off. If there is a substantial drop in RPM, you are too rich. What you want is to just barely be able to hear a RPM change. To check and see if it is good when you reach that point, let it idle for 5 minutes, hold the aircraft solidly, and hammer the throttle. All you should see is the engine spool up with a lot of smoke as it burns out the loaded up oil retained at idle. If you don't see smoke you are probably a touch too lean. A modification I have used is to make sure I see a tiny bit of smoke at idle but that is because my throttle only has 2 positions - idle and WOT. I really don't like it coughing and choking on the way up after a 1/2 circuit at idle and the approach - a la cold engine. I want it all and RIGHT NOW. So I test carefully before committing the engine to flying. Good luck.

Tried all this on my OS 70, and have it so that at idle after removing the igniter, the drop is barely perceptible. It will run like that for about a minute, it transitions beautifully too. But read above what it does after idling for a while. Wonder if the carb is gunked up, or is it because the tank may be too low? I do know my right wing had a healthy coating of goo on it, there was at least an 1/8th" of goo covering it front to back by the time I ran a tank through it.
Old 08-08-2015, 12:06 PM
  #29819  
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Originally Posted by acdii View Post
Tried all this on my OS 70, and have it so that at idle after removing the igniter, the drop is barely perceptible. It will run like that for about a minute, it transitions beautifully too. But read above what it does after idling for a while. Wonder if the carb is gunked up, or is it because the tank may be too low? I do know my right wing had a healthy coating of goo on it, there was at least an 1/8th" of goo covering it front to back by the time I ran a tank through it.
Problems I have had with poor engine performance.

Fuel tank height relative to the needle of the carb. I try to twist the engine mount around to get this as close as possible. Hard to accomplish on some planes. Going electric with current build because this is about impossible.

Loose cylinder head bolts- AX55 running weird, that was the problem. Most Saitos do not have separate cyl heads.

Gunk, grass, etc in needle assy. Funny how this happens with a few filters from jug to tank.

I think some people try to use too big of fuel tank and that causes inconsistent runs. I am guilty of that. Magnum .15 started with 4 oz and did much better with 3 oz tank. Running a 6 oz with 65 cause it was in the plane already. Good for 7 minutes.

I see a few people using prop sizes that I would not be happy with. Too much prop, too much pitch for type of plane. I like a little more power than necessary, prop for good thrust and acceleration and the top speed is usually fine.

Bad glow plug that looks good. And then all the other gremlins jumping on for a ride.

This engine on a Sig Senior ARF was very popular at our field for a few years. If you are tired of playing with the OS70, send it to me and I will put it on my 4*40 and try to get it right
Old 08-08-2015, 04:42 PM
  #29820  
Jim Branaum
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Originally Posted by acdii View Post
Tried all this on my OS 70, and have it so that at idle after removing the igniter, the drop is barely perceptible. It will run like that for about a minute, it transitions beautifully too. But read above what it does after idling for a while. Wonder if the carb is gunked up, or is it because the tank may be too low? I do know my right wing had a healthy coating of goo on it, there was at least an 1/8th" of goo covering it front to back by the time I ran a tank through it.
You are just a skosh too lean on the low end. When you hammer it, it effectively backfires and begins to run backwards. Richen it slightly and try again.
Old 08-08-2015, 05:17 PM
  #29821  
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One idea would be to try a new plug. You can get some strange behavior before they quit completely.

The other thing is I cannot remember how you have it mounted. If inverted you may have it loading up at idle to the point you overcompensate by leaning the LS needle too much.


WMB, there are reports of the liner receding into the casting on the 55AX and that can account for your head bolts being loose. So far neither of mine have suffered that problem.
Old 08-08-2015, 05:38 PM
  #29822  
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Originally Posted by Cougar429 View Post
One idea would be to try a new plug. You can get some strange behavior before they quit completely.

The other thing is I cannot remember how you have it mounted. If inverted you may have it loading up at idle to the point you overcompensate by leaning the LS needle too much.


WMB, there are reports of the liner receding into the casting on the 55AX and that can account for your head bolts being loose. So far neither of mine have suffered that problem.
429,
I hadn't heard that. My newish at the time 55 was running erratically. My head was sore from banging it on the wall. I just happened to check the head screws. A bit loose, tightened them and have put many gallons through it since. This engine is incredible! Lots of power for the 40 size, reliable- just keeps on ticking.
Old 08-08-2015, 05:44 PM
  #29823  
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Originally Posted by Jim Branaum View Post
You are just a skosh too lean on the low end. When you hammer it, it effectively backfires and begins to run backwards. Richen it slightly and try again.
It runs backwards without me doing a thing. At idle it will start to sputter, then run backwards.

Originally Posted by Cougar429 View Post
One idea would be to try a new plug. You can get some strange behavior before they quit completely.

The other thing is I cannot remember how you have it mounted. If inverted you may have it loading up at idle to the point you overcompensate by leaning the LS needle too much.


WMB, there are reports of the liner receding into the casting on the 55AX and that can account for your head bolts being loose. So far neither of mine have suffered that problem.
I thought plug too, and put in a new one, which didn't help. The engine is upright. This engine has been in a few wrecks before I got it and is grungy, so going to take it off and tear it down and give it a good cleaning. Need to find another set screw for the throttle arm though, it lost one, and slips after a while

Now my Saito 100 though, fully resolved, it was the prop that was the issue. It was too small to idle at a lower RPM and thats what caused it to quit. I switched the 14x8 out with a 15 x 6 and the engine runs perfectly now. It idles slower now with the larger prop and idles at the correct speed to slow the Cub down enough to get down and stay down. I built that plane so light and the engine is much larger than called for. With the 14x8 it used all the runway to land, and the slightest up elevator had it climbing up, with the 15x6 now gradual up keeps it level to wheels down and slows enough so that full up puts the tail on the ground so the plane will stop. With the smaller prop I had to nearly ground loop it to stop it. I lost my vertical, but it is a Cub not a SBach! LOL What a great flying plane.

Last edited by acdii; 08-08-2015 at 05:46 PM.
Old 08-08-2015, 06:51 PM
  #29824  
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The mass of the prop makes a lot of difference in idle as the inertia cam both carry it along and smooth out the pulses.

I use wood for most early flights and for some scale jobs, (have to check the nuts regularly due to shrinkage) but really like the Graupner props for their weight and stiffness. Getting hard to find now.
Old 08-08-2015, 08:26 PM
  #29825  
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I picked up an Evolution prop as it was the only one in that size. It was perfectly balanced out of the package and isnt a bad prop at all. Has less flex than the APC when spooling up. It makes that Saito purr, and the idle is LOW! I hit the kill switch and wait.

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